What have your Raven Guard done lately?

[XeonDragon]

Awesome to hear about everyone's hobby progress and commitments! I'm 4-1-2 in our Crusade campaign right now in 5th place of 24.

 

Well, I got smashed 74-9 by custodes in a 1k tournament game recently.

 

Partly bad lack (e.g. a squad of 3 eradicators only done 2 points of damage to a vehicle, vanguard veterans with the +2 litany and strat to re-roll charges failing to get off a 9 inch charge, then failing the next turn to get off a 5 inch charge), partly some mistakes on my behalf (MOA-ing the eradicators to far forward, allowing them to be charged, not starting the vanguard veterans on the table).

 

I'm still torn between terminators and aggressors. The terminators lasted, but just didn't do enough damage in either shooting or melee.  

 

I find Custodes pretty tough myself, I'm actually facing some on Thursday at 1k. Their saves are just so discouraging. Personally I've been using Strike from the Shadows on my Eradicators almost every game, since they just delete something when they land and it makes it so much less likely that they're hurt or killed before they get to make their points back - especially since on turn 1 they're rarely able to get in melta range. Never tried MoAing them.

 

On the flip side I never find myself deep-striking my Vanguards because even a re-rollable 7" charge feels like too much variance, and with 12" move plus advance with Swift & Deadly I find I can usually position them behind obscuring and still make a charge on turn 1 if I want to. I went with a jump pack Chaplain this campaign but after having this experience I think I'll go with a Primaris Bike Chaplain since I haven't felt like deep-striking them at all.

 

I've been running Aggressors but I find them so meta dependent... and even then I don't think they're very good. Both them and Terminators suffer from having anti-MEQ melee and anti-GEQ guns, and T5 is good against small arms but you would really prefer the 2+/5++ against everything else. I'm pretty convinced I shouldn't have brought Aggressors and need BGV instead now that I'm being paired against Space Wolves, Custodes, Ultras, etc.

 

You see, this is what I love about this forum, you have read my mind in a large part. I've been thinking of using SFTS on the Eradicators, and MOAing the Terminators or Aggressors. Like you Alcyon, I am seriously thinking of ditching the jump pack chaplain for a primaris chaplain on a bike. Almost as mobile, more beef, plus some extra bolter shots (works well with bolter fusillades). I have tweaked my list and done swift and deadly on the jump chaplain for the reasons you noted above: I just think deep-striking VGVs, even with the +2 to charge and re-rolls too unreliable. I like the idea of starting on the board, then zooming up. I can see that being more reliable. 

 

The only thing I differ with you is the Aggressors vs Terminators vs BGV. I see having anti-infantry guns and anti-vehicle melee weapons as a mixed bag. I saw a post (reddit or FB RG group, can't remember), where someone made what I think is a series of very good points.

 

First, Aggressors are best used aggressively (no pun intended) to clear a light infantry screen or thin an elite infantry screen with shooting, then charge a vehicle, monster or character either hiding behind it, or in another direction. That is, they are best used very carefully to do two separate things. Positioning is key. If they clear or thin the screen, then charge in and survive, rinse and repeat. Often this may involve shooting in one direction, charging in the other, moving somewhere else to do it all again. 

 

Second, terminators are best used defensively, by plonking them somewhere with good shooting lanes near the middle of the board, ideally on or near an objective. They then shoot at infantry with their bolters, pop shots at heavier targets with the CML (or plasma blaster in the case of relic terminators) and either wait for (or dare!) the opponent to charge them. If they need to take an objective away, then like aggressors they shoot at the screen and charge the big nasty behind it. If they fail the charge, then they are more likely to have more models alive in the next round to move closer and try again than compared to aggressors. Once there, unlike aggressors, they best off remaining stationary. They have the longer range and are more durable, so are better suited to "sitting out the storm" than aggressors. 

 

So the difference is Aggressors move/advance, shoot one thing, charge another, move/advance, shoot one thing, charge another as needed. Terminators teleport/move, shoot the screen, charge the nasty, hold the objective, stay put.

 

BGV are different again: move/advance, shoot (if possible), charge, hold the objective and dare the opponent to try and take it from you. They are a much more singular focus unit, whereas aggressors and terminators have a TAC-aspect to them.

 

For my next game, I have dropped the burning blade and Imperium's sword on my MOA lieutenant and taken a plain old chainsword (to free up both points and CP), and on the jump pack chaplain I have dropped the combi-plasma to scrape another 5 points to give me the 10 points I needed to go to a five-man squad of aggressors (225) compared to the 5 man CML terminator squad (215). I have kept MOS, but added swift and deadly. So more CP available at the cost of one less relic. I am also strongly leaning towards dropping the squad of eliminators for two more eradicators (squad of 5), with the revised plan being MOA-ing the aggressors somewhere to shoot one thing and charge another with the Lt supporting them (that'll give them re-rolls of 1 to hit and wound on the bolters), then SFTS the eradicators to delete something. The VGVs will start on the pitch with the jumpy smashy swift and deadly chappy. 

 

Wish me luck!

Edited April 8, 2021 by XeonDragon

[Alcyon]

I agree with most of that and I do think Aggressors have a TAC component. The current campaign I'm playing is a pretty specific meta; the top bracket of play is Custodes, 3x Space Marine armies (SW, UM, me on RG successors), a triple Valkyrie Scions list with a bunch of psykers and Orks. Plus, thanks to the Angels of Death agenda, half of us are swimming in XP and battle honours, making UM firepower and SW thunderwolves practically insta-kill anything they can touch. In that environment, T5 3+ 3w with Str 4 bolters is not optimal by any means, even with a 6+++ and even BGV would struggle to survive. So definitely YMMV.

[XeonDragon]

I agree with most of that and I do think Aggressors have a TAC component. The current campaign I'm playing is a pretty specific meta; the top bracket of play is Custodes, 3x Space Marine armies (SW, UM, me on RG successors), a triple Valkyrie Scions list with a bunch of psykers and Orks. Plus, thanks to the Angels of Death agenda, half of us are swimming in XP and battle honours, making UM firepower and SW thunderwolves practically insta-kill anything they can touch. In that environment, T5 3+ 3w with Str 4 bolters is not optimal by any means, even with a 6+++ and even BGV would struggle to survive. So definitely YMMV.

 

Good points. I suppose in that environment, you either have to go for being more durable than they are, or just more dakka. Hard to do both. Assault centurions SFTS perhaps? 

[Alcyon]

That's an interesting idea but I'm still pretty leery of relying on even a 7" charge from deep-strike with a Chaplain buff. I think what I need is vehicles, ideally with T8 but I'll try a Redemptor and see how it goes. I don't really have many other sources of 3 damage and hopefully with Duty Eternal it'll be tough enough to shrug some firepower.

[Claws and Effect]

Working on some CHOOM for my 30k Raven Guard. Deadlines suck. 

 

Still have a Contemptor with 2 CCWs and Graviton guns, another Veteran Tactical squad with 2 missile launchers, 2 Apothecaries, and maybe another Praetor to go. 

[XeonDragon]

Picked up a genuine Phobos lieutenant on eBay, painting it up. In other news, had two games of my FLGS escalation league competition, both at 1k.

 

First game was against Tau, I won 33-12. Low scoring game. Second game was against Craftworld Eldar. Won that 41-21. List for both games was a patrol as follows:

 

• HQ1 Warlord: jump chaplain, MOS, mater of trifold path, swift and deadly, wise orator, boltgun, benediction of fury (130)
• HQ2: Primaris lieutenant with storm shield, neo-volkite pistol, hero of chapter, master of ambush, the burning blade (90)
• Troops: 1 squad of 5 incursors (105)
• Elite 1:  squad of 5 boltstorm aggressors (225 points)
• Elite 2: squad of 5 vanguard veterans with twin lightning claws on all (135)
• Heavy support 1: Eliminators with sniper rifles on all (90)
• Heavy support 2: squad of 5 eradicators (225)

I ran as RG successor, bolter fusillades and whirlwind of rage. Started with 3CP.  What I learnt from those two games is this:

 

First, Aggressors do dakka then die. But, in these matches, that dakka was needed to clear hordes or breachers, firewarriors and those Eldar troops to whittle away at obsec unit body count.

 

Second, starting the vanguard veterans on the board with the jump chaplain is a great idea, but you need to think about not just what they are going to charge first, but what they can get too after that. On the plus side, 26 attacks, re-rolling hits (litany of hate), re-rolling wounds (lightning claws) with +1 to wound (exhortation of rage) and additional hits on 6s is absolutely #totesamaze bonkers. 

 

Third, Eradicators can work (they finally worked for me!), but are best sitting back and luring the enemy to come into range. 

 

Fourth, Eliminators are not entirely useless. I used them to deploy on mid-field objectives, then guerilla tactic-teleported them back to home objective in cover where they  spend the rest of the game sniping at characters. No kills, but chipped away a few wounds almost every round.

 

Finally, re-rolling 1s on bolter weapons natively provides a nice, consistent boost to many units. It certainly benefited the aggressors, but it also made the eliminators  and incursors just that bit more reliable. Those extra few hits each round really add up over the course of a full five-turn game. It can also, at lower points level, let you not take a captain and focus on more flexible buffing characters. 

 

In terms of opponents... the dude with the Tau really knew how to use them. Breachers are scary. In terms of craftworld, large blobs of dire avengers and guardian defenders can do some work, and wraithgaurd with d-scythes are nasty... also, that Avatar thing, it can really ruin your day by getting back up. Oh... and those psychic powers like doom etc.... yeah, ouch!

Edited April 16, 2021 by XeonDragon

[Alcyon]

I found Aggressors equally squishy. Looking at the math, a Redemptor with both Onslaught Gatlings is about as much as 4 Aggressors and kills about the same, but is significantly better against MEQ, plus you get Duty Eternal, T7, one additional wound and access to Wisdom of the Ancients. That's where I'm going with it.

 

Definitely the Vanguard have been bonkers for me. I got the Frenzied battle scar on mine so they have double exploding 6s to hit! I think the Storm Shields are still a great option, still keeps them cheap but 2+/4++ is great at helping them survive if they ever get caught in the open or countercharged.

 

I've been SftSing my Eradicators, I always regret it when I don't - they either get killed or don't have range on turn 1 anyway. Dropping them out of deep strike to delete something is huge, the key thing I have to remember is to give them a space close enough to shoot that's still screened, if possible. I think I'm going to try running some Incursors rather than Infiltrators for that purpose.

[XeonDragon]

I found Aggressors equally squishy. Looking at the math, a Redemptor with both Onslaught Gatlings is about as much as 4 Aggressors and kills about the same, but is significantly better against MEQ, plus you get Duty Eternal, T7, one additional wound and access to Wisdom of the Ancients. That's where I'm going with it.

 

Definitely the Vanguard have been bonkers for me. I got the Frenzied battle scar on mine so they have double exploding 6s to hit! I think the Storm Shields are still a great option, still keeps them cheap but 2+/4++ is great at helping them survive if they ever get caught in the open or countercharged.

 

I've been SftSing my Eradicators, I always regret it when I don't - they either get killed or don't have range on turn 1 anyway. Dropping them out of deep strike to delete something is huge, the key thing I have to remember is to give them a space close enough to shoot that's still screened, if possible. I think I'm going to try running some Incursors rather than Infiltrators for that purpose.

 

That's interesting. I've had rotten luck with SFTSing my eradicators, and much more success hiding them behind obscuring terrain and unleashing when I can. In terms of aggressors vs Redemptor dreadnought, that is an interesting comparison and one I will look into more. By way of an interesting side note, I did a detailed mathhammer comparison of redemptor vs venerable dreadnoughts on a points-per-point-of-damage ((PPD), damage output) and points-per-shot-to-kit ((PPS) durability) basis, using baskets of targets and weapons. They were very, very close on both measures, with the redemptor coming out slightly more points efficient, the results were:

 

VD: 13.39 PPD (output) and 2.45 PPS (durability) so 15.84 all up (lower is better)

RD: 10.49 PPD (output) and 2.13 PPS (durability) so 12.61 all up (lower is better)

 

What is interesting is that those figures don't factor in the declining BS/WS of the redepmtor. I will model that, but I suspect that will make it an even closer toss-up between the two. In my local meta, many marine players at higher points often field two redemptors. I am leaning towards one RD and one VD, rather than two RDs, and investing the points saved on storm shield for some vanguard veterans, because, as you note, they can do some bonkers work and I feel that storm shields + power fists = mobile mini-terminators

 

I am also looking very closely at company veterans... I like the idea of small squads of 2-3 with shields and melta or plasma weapons to nab objectives. I have been thinking of taking two squads of 3 veterans: 1 with shield and weapon (probably melta, as it is assault), 1 with metla and power fist and 1 with fist or hammer and shield. The idea is that they can nab objectives, and have enough firepower to be annoying but not a priority target, and enough melee to give other infantry squads pause for thought, but also be tanky enough to need a bit of firepower to shift. 

 

What I'd love to see if first born infiltrators or incursors... wait.... sorry, make scouts troops again have obsec (but maybe have a rule that there is a limit of 2 units, except for RG :D) and that'll do!

Edited April 19, 2021 by XeonDragon

[Claws and Effect]

Probably not going to see Scouts become Troops again.

 

I'm utterly convinced that was GWs way of soft-squatting them.

 

They are still 100% legal to take. But they didn't get 2 wounds like every other Marine unit and they are now an Elites choice in an army drowning in better Elites choices, making them a really unattractive option compared to the other things in the Elites slot.

[Alcyon]

1w Scouts make a kind of sense in fluff terms given their lack of the black carapace, you have to imagine Power Armour does more than just grant a 3+ save. But then I don't think GW wants to give marines the equivalent of Cultists in the form of a cheap, disposable ObSec unit than can easily perform actions. At 14ppm you're paying 5ppm more than a Scion for the benefit of WS3, S4, T4 and +1 Ld (plus Shock Assault, etc) and the problem is those stats don't make them really any more effective at killing GEQ, so you're just buying them to be ObSec infantry and it's too much to pay. Even the Troops slot isn't that critical anymore now that detachments cost CP instead of adding it. They need new sculpts anyway to fix the godawful faces. 

[XeonDragon]

I'd be happy to have them as T3, 2W, 4+ troops to reflect that lack of black carapace and power armour, but still reflecting that they well on the way to being meta-humans. 

[Alcyon]

Yeah, I dunno, I don't think T3 would fly. We are seeing some 2-man Company Veterans and Servitors in lists these days which is probably about as far as GW intended to go, though I doubt they meant those units to be used the way they are (cheap Deploy Scramblers/backline objective holders). I'd like to see a role for Scouts too but I don't know what GW really plans to do with them. Maybe if they improved non-Primaris Sniper Rifles.

[Claws and Effect]

The only lore it hurts is ours, since the Raven Guard historically fielded more Scouts than other Chapters due to Raven Guard neophytes spending more time as Scouts than others.

 

It really feels like GW said "We have no intention of ever updating the kit, so we'll just make it so people don't want to use them anymore, without actually removing them as an option."

[Tokugawa]

The only lore it hurts is ours, since the Raven Guard historically fielded more Scouts than other Chapters due to Raven Guard neophytes spending more time as Scouts than others.

 

It really feels like GW said "We have no intention of ever updating the kit, so we'll just make it so people don't want to use them anymore, without actually removing them as an option."

GW just straightly says "Shelf these and buy new infiltrator/incursor kits!" Even centurions could find competitive position(in RG) after super huge nerfs, but making scouts w1 and not troop really deleted the unit actually.

[BrotherCaptainSolari]

I have had other hobby projects going on and I have had a little break with my RG army. The other day I had really cool combat patrol match against orks and that inspired me to do more jump pack units (I used Shrike and jump pack assault squad with great success against the orks.) So here´s my first five vanguard veterans, more is coming soon!

 

 

[Claws and Effect]

My 30k Raven Guard scored a sneaky win against Mortarion and his Death Guard.

 

Tight game with one obejective in each deployment zone worth 5 VP.

 

I parked my Land Raider Achilles on top of the one in my deployment zone, where it was impossible to shift because my opponent didn't have any weapons capable of exploding it (30k Achilles has a rule that applies a -1 to all rolls on the damage table for penetrating hits).

 

And in the last couple turns I had a Tactical squad run like hell to claim my opponents objective.

 

The roll to see if we got another turn saved me, because he had enough firepower left to turn that Tac squad into a fine red mist if he had gotten the chance.

 

Game ended and I was victorious 5-1. He scored attrition because he killed more units than I did. If he'd have had the chance to blow my Tac squad off that objective I'd have lost 1-0.

[War of the Eagle]

My Raptors played a 2000pt game vs Orks. He hasent played many games of 9th so i tried to tine down my list and tactics but ended up winning rather easy. Didnt use a 1/3ed of my list. Felt kinda bad but was nice to roll die with good people.

 

 

[Alcyon]

We wrapped up our current Crusade Campaign this month and we're running a 1500pt single elimination playoff event just to kind of see who built the best OoB. I'm a lower seed since I didn't play a fully optimized list and so I had to fight it out in the 4th round before making the quarterfinals. Got paired against an Ork player in a lower competitive tier running Goffs with two Warbosses, two big units of Skarboyz, some Tankbustas, a Bonecrusha and a Gorkanaut(!) plus a Painboy and Weirdboy.

 

The lists are a bit weird in this event because a bunch of them have a bit of a narrative focus and also some of the tiers got a little inbred. Plus, my badass Chaplain rolled a 1 trying to cross the Rubicon Primaris last week. Case in point, my list is as follows:

 

Chapter Tactics: Whirlwind of Rage, Tactical Withdrawal (too easy to get +1 to hit already with Crusade buffs)

• Captain w/ Jump pack, the Ebonclaws, Swift & Deadly (just trying it out, should be better than Teeth of Terra except vs. T8)
• Primaris Techmarine w/ Armour Indomitus
• 5x Infiltrators w/ Helix Adept
• 5x Infiltrators
• 5x Intercessors w/ ABRs
• 5x BGV w/ Neo-Volkite - Frenetic (additional attacks on 6s to hit), re-rolls 1s to hit, +1 to move, advance and charge, 6+++
• Judiciar w/ MoA
• Leviathan Dread w/ 2 Grav-flux Bombard, Volkite calivers - re-rolls 1s to hit (pretty much running this only because top tier was all marines and custodes)
• 7x VVs, 3 w/ LC+SS, 3 w/ PF+SS, Sgt. w/ Relic Blade - Frenetic, WS2, re-roll 1s and 2s to advance and charge, Sgt. w/ Terminator Honours, buffed Relic Blade
• 5 Eradicators w/ Heavy Melta Rifles, 1 Multi-melta - BS2, ObSec/can perform actions while shooting, re-roll 1s, 6+++ (I would never take Heavy Melta again in a squad this big, it's total overkill, but I had a free weapon swap and they already have BS2 and rr1s so -1 to hit for moving isn't such a hit.)

 

This is really the first time I've played my army on a full-size table and it makes a big difference, especially in a mission with 6 objectives (we played Scorched Earth this round.) I felt like I had barely enough units and was glad my last change was to add the three Troop squads. Really hard to screen out things like Da Jump. I made a few key mistakes like deploying the Judiciar and Bladeguard in a weird line, intending to screen the Judiciar but just facilitated a turn 1 charge from his bike warboss where I couldn't reach him with the Tempormortis. 

 

I was definitely not aggressive enough with the Leviathan, he had little that could've scratched it and it only has that 24" range on its main guns; I didn't like that it had no good melee ability and will definitely go back to a Redemptor going ahead. I also need to commit my Vanguards to being anti-infantry only, I don't think they live long enough to put Power Fists on them, and when they're lead by a character who's best melee is Str 4 he can't scratch a T8 Gorkanaut.

 

Big map size really hurts Eradicators even coming from Strike from the Shadows, they need all the mobility they can get and probably need to land in the midboard if they want to have a hope of shooting anything else after their first target. I think 5 is a fine number for toughness and fire output but I'd stick with the standard rifle and Multi-melta - or just run Attack Bikes instead above Incursion level. I was able to combo drop them with the Intercessors to kill enough Gretchen to turn off Look Out, Sir and let the Eradicators melt his Warboss, that was clutch, but they did nothing else after that.

 

He dominated me on primaries early on and managed to rack up EOAF pretty consistently, but he only got a few points from Raise the Banners and Attrition. I got 12 VP for Assassinate after tabling him and ~9 from Oath of Moment but didn't have a unit fast enough to get to the midboard to deploy my final scrambler on T5. Really needed to plan the Leviathan in the centre for that extra 2 VP per turn, too.

 

I did end up winning in the end 76-44 by racking up a bunch of Primary points later on as I reduced his unit count and did better on secondaries generally. Next I gotta fight Space Wolves and then probably my nemesis Ultramarines if I don't get eliminated by the dogs. 

[Alcyon]

I get to do an update right after! Just battled the Space Wolves today doing The Scouring. He had a pretty interesting crusade list, Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf, Rune Priest with jump pack and Armour of Russ, two squads of 4 Thunderwolves, all with a pile of crusade upgrades, plus a Ven Dread with Lascannon, Blood Claws and Lascannon Long Fangs both with Terminator Sgts. I took WWSWF, Scramblers and Oaths of Moment, he took Warrior Pride and Heroic Challenge plus Grind Them Down. I also had like 10 CP worth of Crusade Blessings because of the disparity between his characters and mine, so I was swimming in spare CP.

 

He won the rolloff. I was pretty cocky about the Lascannons and ended up losing my Leviathan turn 1. I had deployed it semi-behind cover so I'd have enough movement to shoot its 24" range guns but that meant he could move and shoot it with all his Long Fangs, and I didn't realize there was an SW strat to ignore all modifiers. I don't think bringing the Levi was a bad idea per se but it's great that I'm getting to test it on TTS so I know I don't have to buy on IRL now, haha.

 

He also managed to get a semi-lucky, semi-crusade buffed first turn charge with one Thunderwolf unit into my Bladeguard, who I'd MoA'd to screen the Leviathan. I made the misplay of poorly positioning my Judiciar AGAIN, this time he was in range to Tempormortis but didn't have enough room to Heroic. His Rune Priest had cast that power on my BGV to make them fight last so the Judiciar getting to go would've been the only thing with earlier priority. He only brought two Thunderhammers and 2 Chainswords in the unit though so they only killed a single BGV through Transhuman. On the swing back I managed to wipe them out between Frenetic and Whirlwind of Rage without even needing the Judiciar's attacks.

 

After that stunning success I took the risk of making a longball charge with the BGVs, and with Fleet of Foot and the Captain in the midboard for Swift & Deadly support, managed to get both them and the Judiciar into combat behind an L on the other side of the table. They crushed the Blood Claws and their Wolf Guard Leader, but the second pack of Thunderwolf Cavalry and the Lord quickly ran over to contest the objective.

 

I again stupidly positioned the Judiciar so that he wasn't in range to Heroically Intervene, but I did roll decently on 4+ saves against his Thunder Hammers and Power Fist and only lost two BGVs. Surprisingly the combat continued for a number of rounds after that; eventually he managed to kill my Judiciar to score his SW secondary, but my BGVs maintained and kept contesting the point. Their presence and my two Infiltrator squads on my side of the table meant I got to score Hold 2, Hold More for several turns while denying him ANY primary points, as The Scouring is hold 2 hold 3.

 

To try and mitigate that, he dropped his Terminators into the midboard (I'd zoned out my side of the board pretty well). My Eradicators blew it trying to kill them (he rolled well on saves and they were down a couple models) but they were dispatched in the end by my Vanguard Veterans, which also let me score 2 more VP for Oaths of Moment. My Captain charged the Long Fangs and my opponent got lucky on 6s to hit and deleted him(!) Not a huge deal though because my Vanguards shrugged off their laser beams pretty handily, only losing a couple guys. I also brought my Intercessors on in his backine to deploy Scramblers.

 

On the penultimate turn I brought all my Troops into range to try and clean up the Long Fangs, but between the Intercessors and both Infiltrator squads shooting at long range I only killed the Leader with the Signum. My Vanguards charged his Lord and the remaining Thunderwolf rider in melee with my last 2 BGVs and killed him plus took the objective away, and my Intercessors made a surprising 8" charge into his Long Fangs to lock down their shooting. My Eradicators deployed the final midboard scrambler with their ability to shoot and perform actions and deleted his Venerable Dreadnought on the only objective he had left.

 

Ended up taking it down 62-13 having scored 35pts or so on Primaries, 10 for Scramblers, 10 for WWSWF (Vanguards and Eradicators) and 7 for Oaths. Really enjoyed playing 1500pts on the big board and the tournament format feels a lot more "fair" than the BtV Crusade missions. Looking forward to trying the new Plague Purge/Charadon missions going ahead in our next escalation crusade.

[XeonDragon]

So, I managed a very narrow (76-73) win at my FLGS weekly league event against a very experienced tournament player running sisters of battle. It was 2k battle, scorched earth. 

 

My list:

 

• Vindicare Assassin
• HQs: Chaplain with jump pack, swift and deadly, Benediction of Fury, combi-melta; Lt with storm shield, Neo-volkite pistol, rites of war, shield eternal 
• Troops: incursor squad, infiltrator squad with helix, intercessor with auto bolt rifles
• Elites: Chief apothecary with master of tri-fold path (MOA, selfless healer); Artificer Armour. 5 Aggressors with bolters and grenade launchers; 5 terminators, 4 with chainfists (1 with CML), the Sergeant with power sword; 5 vanguard veterans with twin lightning claws. 
• Fast attack: 4 plasma inceptors
• Heavy support: eliminators; squad of 5 eradicators; whirlwind with vengeance launcher (no storm bolter).

I'm not very familiar with sisters, so I'll do my best to describe. My opponent had Saint Celestine, another winged character, about 3 or 4 of other characters, and a priest. Two what-the-sisters-call-razorbacks plus a rhino or some sort. Lots of small units with melta guns. Lots of small units with crazy combat weapons. Big tanky thing with lots of guns.

 

I took assassinate, engage and oath as my secondaries.  

 

I started everything on the table except the eradicators (SFTS), inceptors and terminators. I deployed the infiltrators on my left flank on ruins to block out that corner, and to be near an objective. I placed the eliminators and vindicare Assassin together in a small ruin with good shooting lanes. Whirlwind behind obscuring terrain. Behind it were my chaplain, vanguard veterans, aggressors and apothecary.  Incursors on the central obscuring terrain piece, intercessors and Lt in woods on my right flank. 

 

I won the roll-off. Used MOA to get the apothecary and aggressors near his left flank, out of sight of his big shooty tank thing, but near some melta-wielding ladies with a sassy attitude and haircuts to match. They did some work, killing a ton with shooting, getting a good charge, killing another unit in melee, then consolidate to move into woods still out of LOS of the big nasty tank. Made a big mistake by advancing VGVs and chaplain towards a unit, but forgot to make sure they would be able to charge after. This meant they were out in the open, nothing in charger range. Advanced intercessors to meet up with the VGVs and chaplain. Shot some other units, did some damage and dropped a few models. Vindicare Assassin took out a banner-holding character that he and the eliminators could *just* get LOS on (my opponent admitted he made a mistake in deploying that model), taking off 3 wounds that the eliminators had left on it, and scoring me 1CP. So I get engage, oath and assassinate points. Nice. 

 

Opponent turn 1, moved stuff, shot stuff, I saved a lot of stuff, lost 2 aggressors to the big (and surprisingly fast) big tanky thing, plus some models that advanced and shot meltas. He charged my incursors with celestine, took down a couple. Moved up the two razor-back things and the rhino thing onto my right flank. I knew it contains lots of nasty melta and melee units.

 

My turn 2. Drop in eradicators into a table quarte, drop plasma inceptors into woods near my infiltrators. They both have lines of sights on both the razorback things, and the plasma inceptor can draw a bead on the rhino. Drop the terminators in near the VGVs and intercessors, good shooting lanes. I carefully move the aggressors, apothecary Lt and Chaplain to ensure that the terminators and aggressors all have one model within the auras of the Lt and Chaplain. Apothecary brings back an aggressor. Fall back with my incursors from Celestine. Intercessors move onto an objective.

 

Eradicators drop a razorback thing. Opponent loses 3 models in the explosion, 1 a character. Rest are taken out by the infiltrators, with all my 1s being re-rolled into 6s (bolter fusillades has its moments!). Plasma inceptors take a rhino thingy down to 1 wound. That ends up hurting. Eliminators plink wounds of Celestine, as does the Vindicare assassin. Terminators do some work with split fire against the other winged character, who is super tough with good invulnerable and a decent FNP. Bolters shred some infantry. Intercessors do the same. I then fail 7 inch charges with VGVs, chaplain, the terminators and intercessors against various targets. Luck changes with the Lt, apothecary and Aggressors who get in and do some work.

 

End of my turn 2, I score 15 primary, assassinate, oath, engage. 

 

Opponent's turn 2, he piles out scary melee units, moves up scary melta ladies with sassy attitudes, moves up the tough winged character and a walker-unit with flamers. Drops a melta unit into my back right corner of my DZ, along with two characters. Shoots all but two of my VGVs to death. Takes out 2 terminators. Takes out 2 intercessors. Celestine takes out 1 incursor. Infiltrators roll hot on their saves, as do the infiltrator and remain intact. He does his charges. Incursors killed to man by Celestine, as are the remaining VGVs by the other tough winged character. Fails 5 inch charges on the aggressors (even with a re-roll) and a 7-inch charge on the eradicators. Fails 6 inch charge on infiltrators. Makes a 10 inch charges on the plasma inceptors. I spend a CP on overwatch. 18 shots, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 4 dead melee models. Plasma inceptors charged by another unit. from 12 inches away. Get killed to a man.

 

 

My turn 3. I move the eradicators carefully so they can, in turn 4, move and advance to get a line on the scary tank thing - just (I measure this up). I guerrilla tactics the infiltrators onto the central terrain piece, for oath points. Terminators and aggressors move carefully for a charge on big scary tank or winged character. Intercessors stay put on objective. Apothecary brings back aggressor (so back to full strength). Eradicators take down unit of melta ladies. Eliminators and vidicare take down a priest character and some other melee-buffing character. Infiltrators plink some wounds of melta unit that was dropped in. Aggressors clear melta unit in front of them. Terminators shoot at the characters he dropped in behind my lines. I charge the winged character with the aggressors, Lt and Chaplain. It finally goes down. Deliberately consolidate the aggressors into engagement range of a shooty unit he had in front of his big scary tank, to stop it shooting at me in his turn. Terminators make a long-range charge on one of the characters he dropped into my DZ to nab an objective near my whirlwind. Chaplain and infiltrators charge Celestine. They take her down, opponent rolls a 1 so she stays down. I score 10 primaries (as he contested two), score engage, oath and assassinate.   

 

Opponent turn 3: he crawls his 1-wound rhino to within range of the objective being held by the eliminators, along with some melee units. So he flips it via numbers. Does some interrogation action on the vindcare (notes he is better off keeping it alive for VP instead of killing it). Carefully moves a small unit of melta ladies to move-block the march of my eradicators. Falls back with the scary tank and the melta ladies in front of it. He shoots, taking down an eradicator, an eliminator, 3 intercessors. Charges well. His character takes down my last 2 terminators, the other moves to the objective held by the whirlwind, flipping it.  

 

Turns 4 and 5 were basically trading units via shooting and charging. He got my chaplain, eliminators whirlwind, I got his big scary tank, another character and some small melta units. It ended up 76-73. After a string of losses it was good to win against an experience opponent, more so because apart from the mistake with the VGVs in turn 1, I think I did better at positioning units, thinking about what comes next, not being too aggressive and being prepared to sacrifice units to score VPs (in the past I tried to save every unit). I'll try and load up some pictures.

 

Key learnings:

 

• whirlwind fight-last strat is great, except when you don't have CP to use it.
• Bolter fusillades does indeed provide a great army-wide boost, albeit only on bolters. Still, against T3 and T4 targets, that is not a bad thing. On some units like infiltrators with auto-wound on 6s, natural re-roll 1s can really, really help.
• Whirlwind of rage is awesome. Just awesome.
• Oath of moment is a great way to score easy VP. It really gels well with assassinate, and potentially also bring it down. Yes, if you fall back you give up a VP, but really, scoring 3 or 4 VP each and every round is pretty damn easy, especially if you have durable units to get into the middle or (as in this game), your opponent decides to  got at your flanks instead of up the middle.
• VGVs need to be moved very carefully, and not left out in the open. 
• The aggressors vs terminators debate continues. 
• A chief apothecary with MOA is a thing of beauty. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by XeonDragon

[jpwyrm]

Very nice write up XeonDragon, thank you for sharing this epic fight with us. I really like your list, it has a nice Raven Guard flair to it. I especially like your Eliminator and Vindicare tag-team   I'm quite surprised by the relatively low amount of long range shooting in your army though. Looks like it works though, but do you think you would struggle against the infamous Raiders if you faced Drukhari? Also, for 5 pts maybe it would be good to give Storm Shields to your Vanguard Vets for more durability (though I think you're right, they should not be left standing in the open!)

 

I like the way you thought about the synergy between your Secondary Objectives choices. Assassinate always looks good for Raven Guard, but do you find it harder when there is a smaller amount of Characters that are really tough? In this matchup, you had two tanky characters that proved very hard to take down (even with Surgical Strike) but several others that proved easier to hunt and thus racked up points in your favor. How do you you deal with tougher characters in other matchups, or lower quantity of Characters? Do you go for it nonetheless or switch for another objective?

[XeonDragon]

Very nice write up XeonDragon, thank you for sharing this epic fight with us. I really like your list, it has a nice Raven Guard flair to it. I especially like your Eliminator and Vindicare tag-team   I'm quite surprised by the relatively low amount of long range shooting in your army though. Looks like it works though, but do you think you would struggle against the infamous Raiders if you faced Drukhari? Also, for 5 pts maybe it would be good to give Storm Shields to your Vanguard Vets for more durability (though I think you're right, they should not be left standing in the open!)

 

I like the way you thought about the synergy between your Secondary Objectives choices. Assassinate always looks good for Raven Guard, but do you find it harder when there is a smaller amount of Characters that are really tough? In this matchup, you had two tanky characters that proved very hard to take down (even with Surgical Strike) but several others that proved easier to hunt and thus racked up points in your favor. How do you you deal with tougher characters in other matchups, or lower quantity of Characters? Do you go for it nonetheless or switch for another objective?

 

Groovy questions! So, I'll go through them one by one.

 

Haven't faced DE raiders yet. I have been thinking of swapping the whirlwind for a venerable dreadnought either with MM or twin las (but that would require turning the infiltrators into incursors) for some long-range AT. Otherwise I was thinking of taking a 3-man squad of eradicators or a las-cannon/missle launcher devastator squad. Otherwise maybe hellblasters, suppressors or a quad las predator (not uber competitive, but I have one painted up and I think it is a funky model). Maybe even swapping the intercessors for a tactical squad with a grav cannon and amp, and taking a twin-las razorback in place of the whirlwind. I've also got a yet-to-be-built redemptor dreadnought, so that might be an option, swap the whirlwind for that, drop 1 aggressor or eradicator to make up the points.

 

The only reason I run twin LCs on the VGVs is that I use dark fury models. I am currently building and painting regular VGV squad which will have LC/SS, so that is in the works When that is done, I will swap the chaplain's combi-melta for a storm bolter to make up five points. 

 

In terms of secondaries, this is something I have really struggled with in the past. I feel as though I am only just starting to (1) pick the right ones and (2) execute plans to score them. In terms of assassinate, I usually only take that if there are 3+ characters on the board. My thinking is I can (hope to?) score more than 6VP with other secondaries. Case in point: slay the warlord is 6VP for one character kill. If there isn't at least 9VP up for grabs, I usually look to report teleport homer (I've had success with it) or bring it down against non-character monster lists. Another option is WWSWF. Terminators are good for that, especially with the apothecary. Aggressors not to bad either, leaving the plasma inceptors or eradicators as the third unit. I'd drop an eradicator to make it the inceptors, for no other reason than they can run away really fast and hide after doing some work and nearly drying to help you score WWSWF points  

 

That said, given the synergy between oath and assassinate, depending on the opponent and terrain, there might be times where even just 2 characters could give an easier 8VP (6 from assassinate, 2 from oath) than other options, at least for me.

 

In terms of dealing with tougher characters (e.g. silent lord, morty, swarmlord), I use what I call the 'triple wave'. First, I try and get a bead with eradicators or plasma inceptors. Shoot like heck. Second, I use the snipers and/or CML on the terminators for a second blob of shooting. That usually results more than a few wounds. The third wave is charging it. Personally I favour the terminators because (1) they hit hard and (2) they'll usually survive the counter-fight whereas aggressor and VGV generally don't. Whatever charges is usually accompanied by a character, either the Lt (who is tanky as heck with that relic storm shield) or the Chaplain (who hits hard, mortal wound potential). Consolidation is really important to try and wrap and trap. I try and make sure the apothecary is around to bring things back, give a 6+++.

 

In my experience, really tanky characters will take 2 rounds of hard combat to clear. Heck, sometimes I even fall back 2" to allow a second round of shooting and then spend the CP on charging best/biggest melee unit that fell back right back onto it. Sometimes a second round from eradicators or inceptors will do more than your entire swarm alone would (especially if aren't fighting first). Alternatively, I charge in any units that didn't make it the first time to at least try and ensure that in the 2nd round of combat I get first swings again.

 

Of course, this all depends on the screen being cleared (intercessors or my personal favour tactical squad with grav cannon and amp and sergeant with storm bolter or combi plas is great for this). If it is, then I'll try and use the whirlwind to make it fight last. Otherwise, the whirlwind can be pretty good at clearing that last screening unit or two. So yeah, two rounds of shooting, swarm charge with durable units and buffing character and hope for the best!   That said... this does not work against Tau! They're overwatch and letting nearby units also shoot overwatch is crazy, and really counter-meta in a way. In my experience, I get better results by charging in a super-tanky character with a ++ and +++ to survive the overwatch, then charge in the beat stick unit.  

Edited May 28, 2021 by XeonDragon

[Claws and Effect]

My 30k Raven Guard acquitted themselves well in the Bugeater Heresy event. 

 

My W-L record was only 1-2, but I came in I think 3rd overall Loyalist in VP with 32 over the 3 games. It was a narrative event with custom missions written by one of the TOs. The theme was the Solar War and the battles leading up to the Siege of Terra. Day 1 was on Friday and was a BFG event. Day 2 was Saturday and was the main tourney. Day 3 is actually today and is going to be an Apocalypse battle, which I am not attending due to not having enough big stuff to even make a dent in anything. 

 

For the main narrative tourney it was split into 3 different game types, which you had to bring appropriate lists for all of. 3,000 point 1v1, 6,000 point 2v2, and 1,250 point Zone Mortalis. Players were encouraged to play one game of each, which most people did, with a few exceptions (couple people really didn't care for ZM and avoided it). 

 

For the first game I played a 6,000 point 2v2 game. My Raven Guard were paired with my wife's Blood Angels against the Sons of Horus and Iron Warriors. The scenario was objectives worth a number of VP that was written on the underside of the objective markers (poker chips). Secondary objectives were Kill Points and Slay the Warlord. Since it was a doubles game one of the 2 Warlords was nominated as the overall army Warlord for the purposes of the Slay the Warlord objective, though WL Traits for both were still active. We nominated Sanguinius as our overall WL since we figured he would be more likely to be leading than Corax. He's also significantly harder to kill. The TO ruled that the Slay the Warlord bonus for my ROW (Liberation Force) would trigger regardless of who actually scored the kill since it was a team game. 

 

The Raven Guard force consisted of 2 Tactical Squads (compulsory troops), an 8 man Tactical Support squad with volkite calivers, a Veteran Tactical squad with 2 missile launchers in a Rhino, 5 man Mor Deythan squad all with combi-meltas,  7 man Seeker squad, a Praetor and his 4 man Command squad with an Apothecary attached riding in a Land Raider Achilles, a Whirlwind Scorpius, a Fire Raptor, 2 Contemptors (1 with 2 CCW, graviton guns, and a havoc launcher, 1 with a Kheres and CCW), all led by Corax himself. 

 

The Blood Angels force consisted of Sanguinius, a 10 man Dawnbreaker squad with a Chaplain and Apothecary attached, 2 Assault squads (compulsory troops), an Angel's Tears squad (fancy Destroyers, essentially), a Fire Raptor, an Incandius Contemptor, a Leviathan, and a Sicaran Battle Tank. 

 

The Traitors had a lot of tanks and artillery (very thematic for the Legions they were playing). The Sons of Horus brought a Typhon siege tank, a Predator squadron with plasma, a couple Termite Assault Drills (1 of which was loaded with a plasma Veteran squad and his Praetor), and some other stuff I didn't quite catch (that Typhon was scary). Iron Warriors brought 2 Medusas, a bunch of quad launcher Rapiers, a Tyrant Siege Terminator squad, a heavy support squad with autocannons, and some other stuff. 

 

Turn 1 was a disaster for the Raven Guard. We did not attempt to seize, as most of the Blood Angels force was in reserve and had to come in turn 1 and we figured it would be smart to not let the enemy shoot at them for their first turn. I did not realize that a Termite Assault Drill could deep strike under an enemy unit, and they act just like drop pods in 30k. So turn 1 it tunnels up under one of my Tactical squads and the unit inside disembarked. This put the plasma Veteran squad right next to Corax where his only snap shots at him rule did not apply. They unloaded plasma into Corax and scored 8 AP2 wounds his pathetic 5+ invuln save could not deal with, only saving 2 of them. End result: My Primarch died before he even got to move. A quad launcher Rapier deleted my volkite squad, and the autocannon heavy support squad killed half my Seekers forcing them to fail morale and fall back. If I had known the drill could pop up in the middle of a unit like that I would have put Corax in reserve. Not a whole lot else happened turn 1 for me, as I was still reeling from my losses.   

 

Turns 2-4 went a little better. In turn 3 I scored the most epic single shot of the entire event (pretty much agreed upon by everyone who happened to see it). My Mor Deythan combi-melta squad outflanked in the back corner and used their Fatal Strike ability to shoot their melta at the Typhon that was sitting in the back line of the Sons of Horus. Fatal Strike gives all their shooting attacks twin-linked (reroll failed hits) and Rending (extra D3 on armor penetration on 6s). I did that because the Typhon is armor 14 on all sides and the rend was needed to score penetrating hits. I hit with all 5 shots and got 2 6s on penetration rolls. The 6s were automatically penetrating hits because the 6s scored a glance by themselves. On the damage table I rolled a 6 and instantly exploded the Typhon with a single melta shot. The Typhon's explosion scattered directly on top of the Contemptor Mortis that was standing 4 inches away from it and stripped 6+d6 hull points off in a penetrating hit. Then I rolled a 6 on the damage table for the dreadnought too. So a single Mor Deythan fired a melta gun and blew up a Typhon and a dreadnought with one shot. 

 

The rest of the battle went back and forth and it came down to turn 5, in which Sanguinius unfortunately failed his charge to take out the enemy Warlord (which he easily would have done if he'd gotten in). Ended as a 10-6 loss for the Loyalists. Other than the misfortune of losing Corax and my choom squad before they could even do anything, the Raven Guard acquitted themselves well. 

 

Game 2 was weird. One of the players didn't show up so the sides were uneven. One of the TOs had an army with him for such an eventuality and I ended up playing him. The kicker was that his army was also Raven Guard. So narratively speaking we decided that his Raven Guard were Alpha Legion infiltrators. I was much smarter about deploying my Primarch this time around and put him in ruins where he could not be seen until I wanted him to be (totally on brand for Corax). Nothing particularly spectacular happened this game. I ended up mulching the Alpha Legion infiltrators and won it 23-10. The mission was terrain pieces as a whole were objectives, and you scored points by having a scoring unit entirely within them at the end of the game. The killing blow was Corax killing the last 2 members of a squad that was hunkered down in on of the objectives with his Hammer of Wrath. 

 

Thus far my Achilles' streak is still alive. It gets blown up regularly in 40k, but it has not been destroyed in 30k yet. 5 games and hasn't been wrecked yet (it's almost impossible to actually explode it because of the -1 it imposes on damage table rolls). My Fire Raptor also survived both games it appeared in, which surprised me. It usually dies a horrible death.  

 

Game 3 was my Zone Mortalis game. And it didn't go in my favor. I ended up facing Thousand Sons, and fighting a bunch of psykers on a space hulk isn't a good plan. The rules for the ZM games stipulated that half of your force had to be in reserve and come in normally with reserve rolls, or automatically on turn 4. My terminators, Tac Squad, and Praetor didn't want to go to work that day. The Terminators came in turn 3 and immediately got locked in with my opponent's Sekhmet Terminators, where it was a battle of attrition they were not well equipped for. My Tac Squad and Praetor didn't show up until they were forced in on turn 4. Ended up losing that one 10-3. Even as a loss it was still a fun game, and my first time playing Zone Mortalis.  

 

I didn't do too badly overall and learned quite a bit about Horus Heresy games while having an absolute blast. I am greatly enjoying playing Heresy over 40k these days. The vibe is very different. When you walked past where the 40k GT was taking place there was almost utter silence and everyone seemed to be taking the games as VERY SERIOUS BUSINESS, with quite a bit of salt for good measure. In contrast you walked into the Heresy event area and there was just a jovial atmosphere with lots of laughing and joking amongst the players, many of whom were complete strangers to each other. That's a big part of why I'm focusing more on Heresy than 40k for the foreseeable future. The 40k GT players were taking everything very seriously and didn't seem like they were really having all that much fun, while having fun really seemed to be the whole point of the Heresy event. I'm just not interested in playing a game against someone who is going to argue with me over a half inch distance because it affects his tournament standing. Also, my wife was the only woman playing in either event, and she was welcomed by the Heresy crowd with little hesitation. I strongly suspect that would not have been the case in the 40k GT. 

[XeonDragon]

Thanks for the great write-up! Make me want to have a look at 30k :) 

[Dracos]

Had my first game of summer now that that schools out. Actually was with another teacher from a school up north. Ork player with just a few games of 9th under his belt. I explained all \my movement shenanigans up front, but until it happens it hard to understand how hard a Raven Guard (Successor) army can hit when it gets first go Turn One.

I'll make a more detailed report in my Warhawk plog later this weekend. The Assault Intercessors and Indomitus Lt nerfed him by taking out the Mob of boys he had after they fought twice. Blade Guard shook off the Bone Crusher Battlewagon on his go. T2 Eradicator Alpha split fire killing Boss on the Bike and the Battlewagon. Inceptors wiped out the Shootas. After both Blade uard surrounded and cut down the Trukk filled with soon to be dead Mega Nobs he capitulated and we then talked for an hour about everything from 2nd edition 40k to the soon to be T5 Boyz. Plan to play again in a couple weeks. He'll do better next time. I'll liklely end up going second and while I have plans for that it always suxks lol