8th Edition & BA

[durdle-durdle]

If I had to guess, marines will have lots of ways to ignore or reduce battleshock like their sigmarine cousins. I think there's a couple stormcasts generals that have "everything doesn't test for battleshock", and the order alliance trait is a reroll on the test. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

[Charlo]

Which is fine for guardsmen.

 

But not for Astartes, as assumed by literally everyone - one of the big buffs for marines will be reducing the power of battleshock I bet.

 

That said sergeants may have higher Ld and having that Ld 10 is pretty sweet, needing 5 casualties before you can fail the test and even then only a 1/6 chance.

[Tyriks]

Since even Terminators are only Ld 8 and our Tacticals dropped to Ld 7 I am not sure if I think hoping for Ld10 sergeants is reasonable.  But maybe they would do that to make you more concerned with where your sergeant is in the group...

[sebs_evo7]

I think even your basic marines having a mechanic to manipulate morale such as atsknf will be too strong if the only thing morale does is reduce your units. Especially if other factions only get limited buffs from stuff like hqs

[Father Mapple]

If you think that the minimum unit size is 5, making the unit leadership 10 means they're essentially fearless and immune to morale without additional modifiers, like the hemlock -1 within 12" mentioned in the article. That's probably too much for the most prevalent unit in the game.

[Tyriks]

If you think that the minimum unit size is 5, making the unit leadership 10 means they're essentially fearless and immune to morale without additional modifiers, like the hemlock -1 within 12" mentioned in the article. That's probably too much for the most prevalent unit in the game.

That is a very good point!  If a sergeant is Ld8 you'd have to lose 60% of a 5 man squad to even have a chance of losing another to morale.  

[Frater Antodeniel]

The thing is that Astartes, due to their training, will never run away due to fear, however, they may retreat...So, if ATSKNF is to be changed, if would be for a retreat move.

 

The looses in other armies are explain by selfish action.

 

- A squad of guard may run away in panic, loosing some more guard in this "action".

- A Traitor Marines, may try to run away from the fight, while his squad is slaughtered, doing so to save his own selfish life...

- Lesser Tyranids may end up acting like simple beasts if they loose their leader.

- Even a necron squad may loose some members, due to the bugs of a fall-back protocol.

 

But unlike all those armies, Astartes are too well disciplines to simply run away from a fight due to fear. But they can perform tactical retreat.

 

So, if i would imagine a new kind of ATSKNF, it would be by simply remplacing the "looses" by "inch of retreat move to perform".

 

So, a Tactical Squad that Fail a Morale Test would not loose any more models, but instead would have to perform a retreat move. (They can also be prevented to move for the next turn....etc.....or it can also simply be a Leadership boost^^.)

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

The thing is that Astartes, due to their training, will never run away due to fear, however, they may retreat...So, if ATSKNF is to be changed, if would be for a retreat move.

 

The looses in other armies are explain by selfish action.

 

- A squad of guard may run away in panic, loosing some more guard in this "action".

- A Traitor Marines, may try to run away from the fight, while his squad is slaughtered, doing so to save his own selfish life...

- Lesser Tyranids may end up acting like simple beasts if they loose their leader.

- Even a necron squad may loose some members, due to the bugs of a fall-back protocol.

 

But unlike all those armies, Astartes are too well disciplines to simply run away from a fight due to fear. But they can perform tactical retreat.

 

So, if i would imagine a new kind of ATSKNF, it would be by simply remplacing the "looses" by "inch of retreat move to perform".

 

So, a Tactical Squad that Fail a Morale Test would not loose any more models, but instead would have to perform a retreat move. (They can also be prevented to move for the next turn....etc.....or it can also simply be a Leadership boost^^.)

I disagree with this. This is how you get bloated rules. The rule needs to affect everyone exactly the same way. If it can't then it shouldn't be in the rule book.

[ThatOneMarshal]

It would be great if marines didn't straight ignore moral like they do now. A small bonus like a re roll would be nice but straight ignoring doesn't do a whole lot for the game.

[Jolemai]

Battleshock will be the main rules. The five Faction books will likely contain all the modifiers, such as any 8th edition ATSKNF.

 

Personally, I don't like the press release about morale at all.

[Quixus]

So sanguinary guard now get a save vs lascannons, they are flying terminators now

i hope they get two wounds

I think you are referring to "everyone gets to roll if he has a save" and the Lascannon will be -3 to the save, so de facto a 5+. better than nothing.

 

I wonder though will invulnerable saves still exist, and what is their point? Can you finally roll more than one save?

[Panzer]

 

So sanguinary guard now get a save vs lascannons, they are flying terminators now

i hope they get two wounds

I think you are referring to "everyone gets to roll if he has a save" and the Lascannon will be -3 to the save, so de facto a 5+. better than nothing.

 

I wonder though will invulnerable saves still exist, and what is their point? Can you finally roll more than one save?

 

They will, however we don't know how they'll work yet.

[Arkangilos]

They were more direct with my answer. They said, "You get to fight first; that's a major bonus!"

But... we already it first...

[appiah4]

Im pretty certain ATSKNF will make marines straight up immune to battle shock. Edited May 4, 2017 by appiah5

[Tyriks]

No, they have explicitly said that they don't want to have any armies immune to it, since that was a major problem in previous editions.  

[Panzer]

Im pretty certain ATSKNF will make marines straight up immune to battle shock.

Doubtful. GW is actually trying to remove as many straight up immunities from the rules.

Apart from LD7 on T4 3+ guys being really good in the new battleshock system there are be a LOT of ways how ATSKNF could influence the new system. A flat value of casualties you ignore before having to test, reducing the number of battleshock casualties, ignoring negative modifier from fear or whatever, etc. etc.

I could also easily see ATSKNF not affecting the Battleshock rules at all and instead allowing to fall back from melee while still being able to shoot or such.

 

Also since the Battleshock system is so versatile about what it actually represents fluff-wise we should all expect almost no unit in the whole game to be immune to it at all. No fearless, no ATSKNF, no nothing.

[Xenith]

In combat, losing extra models make sense as they are dragged down under weight of numbers, cut down as they retreat, etc.

 

From shooting it makes less sense. Maybe like 30k Iron warriors that were immune to morale checks from shooting? Marines reroll failed battleshock tests at range?

[Charlo]

In combat, losing extra models make sense as they are dragged down under weight of numbers, cut down as they retreat, etc.

 

From shooting it makes less sense. Maybe like 30k Iron warriors that were immune to morale checks from shooting? Marines reroll failed battleshock tests at range?

 

It's supposed to represent the crazy theatre of war with random calamities happening and comrades taking their wounded to the backline.

 

Yeah - I don't buy it for marines either.

 

FRESH from the rumor mill though....

 

NOW CONFIRMED AS FAKE.

 

Hidden Content

 

 

- Assault 2d6”, multiple units

- Split fire: any unit can target as many targets as they want

- Normally the unit don’t have to target the nearest unit, but there are lots of abilities that have this restriction

- Invulnerable saves simply ignore armour penetration up to the given value. They are not that common, wave serpents and Canoptek wraiths have one

- Most power fields, etc. are separate saves that are taken in addition to other saves just like FnP of today, they may or may not ignore mortal wounds on a case by case basis

- Dodges, camos, etc are now to hit modifiers

- Characters cannot join units

- Characters can only be targeted if nearest target or within 12”

- Larger models are seldom characters, Gulliman is not for example

- Deepstriking units can be placed anywhere. Every unit with deep strike has a value. Have to beat it to land on target, otherwise opposing player can move unit the rolled distance

- There are no mishaps anymore

- Overwatch shooting against deep striking units within 9” at -1 BS

- Summoning is not a psychic ability anymore, normal deep striking with psyker as homing beacon instead

- There are spells that replenish or add wounds to demon squads

- Most vehicles have a single attack with high S, but no AP, some have considerably more like the battle waggon

- Vehicles and units fighting against vehicles usually can fall back without penalty, they cannot move in the charge phase when they have moved or shot in the same turn. Most walkers don’t have this rule

- Terrain enhances armour in assault phase for the defender, or both in consecutive turns, is negated by grenades

- Assaulting units get +1 attack

- Vertical movement does not count against the allowance but a model cannot go higher than the movement value in a given phase. Lots of exceptions for jumping, flying, etc. of course

Ranges are measured on the ground level from base or model to base or model, whichever is nearer

- Units are deployed within 3” of a transport, cannot move, but can charge in the charge phase

- No more firing from a transport, though some vehicles, especially open topped ones have extra firing points weapons if they transport enough (and sometimes eligible) models. But they use their own BS and the kind of weapon is fixed. For example Raiders have 5 fire point splinter rifles, but only if they transport kabalite warriors

- No challenges

- Hidden power fists viable again, wound allocation by owning player, any model in squad, but wounded ones first

- There are some precision weapons that let the firing player choose the wound allocation (always or on a 6)

- Units have always the same T and Save now. There are some models that have T- Sv - and adapt like drones and grots, most of the other combined units have matchings stats now, Black templar neophytes have a 3+ now, for whatever reason

- Command points allow to reroll saves, hits, wounding or charge distance, reroll any single dice throw, negate all terrain in 12” of one of your models, alter the attack sequence, boost psychic block rolls, allow additional reserves and allow units to get another charge phase after wiping out an enemy

- There are some models like Ghazghkull that have their own abilities that are triggered by command points

- perils of the war: snake eyes on the test, d6 on table, d3 mortal wounds and losing a spell are the worst cases 

- Player can spend command points to choose who goes first instead of rolling, whoever spends more

- Matched games have a fixed number of turns, 5 or 6 rounds depending on mission, 18” is starting range and turn 1 charges are completely legal

- Reserves are not random, except for rounding: second turn half the units are deployed, third turn half of the remaining, fourth turn rest

- Flyers have an individual to hit modifier, mostly -2 or -3, a 6 is always a hit as usual, depends on the flying mode for flyers that have more than one

- Flyers are affected by heavy weapon malus, but most flyer weapons are assault,

flyer weapons have often a shorter range and a different name, but are otherwise identical to their ground counterparts

- Terrain does not influence movement distance per se. Some citadel terrain pieces half the movement or do other things.

- There are no warzone rules in the core rules

- True line of sight is used to establish line of sight to a model, but otherwise models count in or out of cover depending if they are in a piece of terrain or if they are touching it and the firing - line goes through the terrain

- In matched play, models have a fixed base size specified in the General’s Handbook. In the two other game types, they can use any base they want

 

Edited May 4, 2017 by Charlo

[Bartali]

Some interesting stuff there if true. With that overwatch, and also the ability for units to fall back from CC, surely assault from deep strike allowable as standard without any special rules ? Exciting times for Terminators and Jump Units if so

 

 

Deepstriking units can be placed anywhere. Every unit with deep strike has a value. Have to beat it to land on target, otherwise opposing player can move unit the rolled distance

- There are no mishaps anymore

- Overwatch shooting against deep striking units within 9” at -1 BS

 

 

Edited May 4, 2017 by Bartali

[Panzer]

 

FRESH from the rumor mill though....

 

 

- Assault 2d6”, multiple units

- Split fire: any unit can target as many targets as they want

- Normally the unit don’t have to target the nearest unit, but there are lots of abilities that have this restriction

- Invulnerable saves simply ignore armour penetration up to the given value. They are not that common, wave serpents and Canoptek wraiths have one

- Most power fields, etc. are separate saves that are taken in addition to other saves just like FnP of today, they may or may not ignore mortal wounds on a case by case basis

- Dodges, camos, etc are now to hit modifiers

- Characters cannot join units

- Characters can only be targeted if nearest target or within 12”

- Larger models are seldom characters, Gulliman is not for example

- Deepstriking units can be placed anywhere. Every unit with deep strike has a value. Have to beat it to land on target, otherwise opposing player can move unit the rolled distance

- There are no mishaps anymore

- Overwatch shooting against deep striking units within 9” at -1 BS

- Summoning is not a psychic ability anymore, normal deep striking with psyker as homing beacon instead

- There are spells that replenish or add wounds to demon squads

- Most vehicles have a single attack with high S, but no AP, some have considerably more like the battle waggon

- Vehicles and units fighting against vehicles usually can fall back without penalty, they cannot move in the charge phase when they have moved or shot in the same turn. Most walkers don’t have this rule

- Terrain enhances armour in assault phase for the defender, or both in consecutive turns, is negated by grenades

- Assaulting units get +1 attack

- Vertical movement does not count against the allowance but a model cannot go higher than the movement value in a given phase. Lots of exceptions for jumping, flying, etc. of course

Ranges are measured on the ground level from base or model to base or model, whichever is nearer

- Units are deployed within 3” of a transport, cannot move, but can charge in the charge phase

- No more firing from a transport, though some vehicles, especially open topped ones have extra firing points weapons if they transport enough (and sometimes eligible) models. But they use their own BS and the kind of weapon is fixed. For example Raiders have 5 fire point splinter rifles, but only if they transport kabalite warriors

- No challenges

- Hidden power fists viable again, wound allocation by owning player, any model in squad, but wounded ones first

- There are some precision weapons that let the firing player choose the wound allocation (always or on a 6)

- Units have always the same T and Save now. There are some models that have T- Sv - and adapt like drones and grots, most of the other combined units have matchings stats now, Black templar neophytes have a 3+ now, for whatever reason

- Command points allow to reroll saves, hits, wounding or charge distance, reroll any single dice throw, negate all terrain in 12” of one of your models, alter the attack sequence, boost psychic block rolls, allow additional reserves and allow units to get another charge phase after wiping out an enemy

- There are some models like Ghazghkull that have their own abilities that are triggered by command points

- perils of the war: snake eyes on the test, d6 on table, d3 mortal wounds and losing a spell are the worst cases 

- Player can spend command points to choose who goes first instead of rolling, whoever spends more

- Matched games have a fixed number of turns, 5 or 6 rounds depending on mission, 18” is starting range and turn 1 charges are completely legal

- Reserves are not random, except for rounding: second turn half the units are deployed, third turn half of the remaining, fourth turn rest

- Flyers have an individual to hit modifier, mostly -2 or -3, a 6 is always a hit as usual, depends on the flying mode for flyers that have more than one

- Flyers are affected by heavy weapon malus, but most flyer weapons are assault,

flyer weapons have often a shorter range and a different name, but are otherwise identical to their ground counterparts

- Terrain does not influence movement distance per se. Some citadel terrain pieces half the movement or do other things.

- There are no warzone rules in the core rules

- True line of sight is used to establish line of sight to a model, but otherwise models count in or out of cover depending if they are in a piece of terrain or if they are touching it and the firing - line goes through the terrain

- In matched play, models have a fixed base size specified in the General’s Handbook. In the two other game types, they can use any base they want

 

^ a natfka rumour for those who don't read the N&R threads. Take it with salt.

[appiah4]

Power Fists.  Power Fists EVERYWHERE.

[redshadow]

Rhino rush ftw

[Damon Nightman]

excuse my ignorance, but why are powerfists so good now specifically?

[Jolemai]

We don't know that the are. People are reading into the part where Initiative is no longer a thing and assuming there will be no drawbacks for using them.

[RedemptionNL]

Well we already know for certain that they don't have to always strike last anymore - which was their biggest disadvantage. And if those rumours mentioned by Charlo above are true and there are no more challenges, the age of the Crouching Sergeant, Hidden Powerfist returns.