8th Edition & BA

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

I just want to know what the Blood Angels look like upon initial release... I'm reminded of 4th ed when we got a "stop-gap" White Dwarf codex which lasted until 5th ed; in which case I'd expect us to get a general standard Space Marine treatment with some bonus like +1 to Charge.

 

I know eventually they will release actual "codex" with the proper force-org etc, and as super optimistic as I am about the core rules, I am still weary of our initial line-up until that point.

 

 

 

Anyone else a little worried for the Flesh Tearers? The story doesn't seem to be boding well for them in this next round of story advancements.

So Flesh Tearers took a hit on Cryptus but most of the chapter should be all moved to Baal. I want to say there was only a company with Gabriel for Cryptus. The rest will likely will stand and fall with their parent chapter from what I would imagine. Given that flesh tearers were already low volume (I wanna say about 600-700 marines total?) things aren't looking good there.

 

One thing that is against us in the upcoming war is that Ultramarines (closest war similar to this one) had an extensive system defensive force of guardsmen. We likely do not have this so its going to be just marines versus nids/deamons. The one saving grace is that it was already established that we have extensive training on tyranid tactics both before and after Cryptus so experience may save the day ultimately.

 

Generally I don't like our chances. For BA, 1st and 2nd(?) company are severely depleted (probably 25-50 dudes left in each). 3rd company is on Armageddon. 5th is totally gone. I am pretty sure we are out of Sanguinary guard too. So unless there is respite from a supporting chapter/army, we are pretty screwed.

 

 

I am worried about how BA will fare in 8th ed. Sure BA (and SW - they seem to be in a similar position) will have rules at launch, but how long will GW continue supporting them ? They seem to be squatting BA in the fluff, whilst pushing Guilliman's New Marines in both models and fluff.

 

We are the poster boys of almost every boxed game out right now, Lost Patrol, Shadow War Armageddon, Space Hulk, We have a model in the Death Watch game, there's an audio book about the flesh tearer that's also part of the death watch. 

 

The introduction of the Super marines states that they are meant to replenished chapters pushed to the brink also. It even shows Space Wolves fighting the good fight. Plus blood angels are very iconic so I doubt that will happen.

 

Also,  I can't wait to read the Devastation of Baal, to find out what happens. I think we are going to be okay. And 8th edition I really believe we will have that key shock and awe presence we've all felt was a bit lacking on the table top recently.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Frater Antodeniel]

 

I just want to know what the Blood Angels look like upon initial release... I'm reminded of 4th ed when we got a "stop-gap" White Dwarf codex which lasted until 5th ed; in which case I'd expect us to get a general standard Space Marine treatment with some bonus like +1 to Charge.

 

I know eventually they will release actual "codex" with the proper force-org etc, and as super optimistic as I am about the core rules, I am still weary of our initial line-up until that point.

 

 

 

Anyone else a little worried for the Flesh Tearers? The story doesn't seem to be boding well for them in this next round of story advancements.

So Flesh Tearers took a hit on Cryptus but most of the chapter should be all moved to Baal. I want to say there was only a company with Gabriel for Cryptus. The rest will likely will stand and fall with their parent chapter from what I would imagine. Given that flesh tearers were already low volume (I wanna say about 600-700 marines total?) things aren't looking good there.

 

One thing that is against us in the upcoming war is that Ultramarines (closest war similar to this one) had an extensive system defensive force of guardsmen. We likely do not have this so its going to be just marines versus nids/deamons. The one saving grace is that it was already established that we have extensive training on tyranid tactics both before and after Cryptus so experience may save the day ultimately.

 

Generally I don't like our chances. For BA, 1st and 2nd(?) company are severely depleted (probably 25-50 dudes left in each). 3rd company is on Armageddon. 5th is totally gone. I am pretty sure we are out of Sanguinary guard too. So unless there is respite from a supporting chapter/army, we are pretty screwed.

 

 

I am worried about how BA will fare in 8th ed. Sure BA (and SW - they seem to be in a similar position) will have rules at launch, but how long will GW continue supporting them ? They seem to be squatting BA in the fluff, whilst pushing Guilliman's New Marines in both models and fluff.

 

 

It is time for the => What do we know :

 

In the New Fluff =>  "To the Imperium it is the Cicatrix Maledictum, or just the Great Rift. To those on the Terran side, it is a tainted scar across the sky. To those unfortunates on the far side, it is far worse…"

 

So the Imperium is divided in Two. Both side now independant from the other. Most of the Blood Angels forces and some of their successors are on the "far side"...ALONE. (So no Guilliman Super-marine reinforcement...etc...normally, if GW is logical.)

 

In the Dante Novel => Lots of successors already answered positively to the Call of Dante for the defence of Baal, but there are some whose answers are still awaited.

 

Angels Encarmine gathers at Chapter Strenght (800 to 1k brothers), Blood Drinkers send 4 entire company (400 brothers). Angels Numinous/Angels Sanguine/Flesh Eaters/Exsanguinators and Knights of Blood presence confirmed. Dante refused to call the Angels Vermillon for help, and the Lamenters answered negatively.

 

In is stated that a minimum of 5000 to a maximum of 15000 Blood Angels & Successors brothers will be present for the defence of BAAL. But how will the Cicatrix Maledictum affect the Defence of BAAL remains to be answered.

 

Flesh Tearers Forces =>

 

In the recent Dante novel, Seth State that he lost Two Hundred brother fighting for the Blood Angels cause. (So most likely 150 in the Cryptian War, and 50 in the events just before, because, in the A Son's Burden Short Story, Seth left half a scouts company to die on the world of Nekkaris.)

 

But

 

In the Shield of Baal Lore, it is stated that Seth joined with elements from his 1st/2nd and 3rd Company, most likely the entirety of the 3. Leaving the 4th and 5th on Armageddon.

 

"There are scarely four hundred Flesh Tearers left, and at the time of the Cryptan War more than half of the Chapter's number - some five under-strenght companies - were deployed in the war zones of Armageddon." Shield of Baal Exterminatus the Rules

 

"Decimated by centuries of war and madness, the Flesh Tearers Chapter has been reduced to less than half of its former strenght." Shield of Baal Exterminatus the Rules

 

Maybe because i'm french, so i read it wrong, but to me, in the Shield of Baal Exterminatus Lore, the Flesh Tearers have ~400 brothers alive, with half of it on Armageddon and the other half under Seth command.

 

So, i don't think we need to do mathematic to point the fact that there is a little problem regarding the current Flesh Tearers forces.

 

So either the Flesh Tearers on Armageddon left this Warzone to join Baal before the events of the Cicatrix Maledictum or Seth will barely have 50 brothers left to defend BAAL with him. Another point, is the fact that all other Chapter Command units of the Flesh Tearers (Chief Librarian Luciferus/Reclusiarch and High Sanguinary Priest notably) are not mentioned as present during the Cryptian War....

 

In the End, the Flesh Tearers fluff is quite full of holes....for the moment.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Yeah I think there is zero chance of us getting squat'ed... I just wonder how bland or lame our 'get-started codex' / single-page-of-rules will be, and how long we will wait to see an actual treatment. Based on past experience I am quite weary, though they do seem to be trying to break old habits - it'll be interesting anyway.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Chaplain Gunzhard

[Charlo]

Behold - 3 of the X number of detachments in the rule book:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/05/new-warhammer-40000-battle-forged-armiesgw-homepage-post-4/

 

Seems like the bonuses are basically command points.

 

ALSO interesting is the Dedicated Transports thing...

 

AND Flyers are a unit choice now.

 

Edited May 5, 2017 by Charlo

[Jorre]

I hope chapter masters like Dante go back to being a HQ choice!

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

I hope chapter masters like Dante go back to being a HQ choice!

 

Well there isn't even a Lord of War slot on those force-org. But having Dante as a LoW did free up 2 HQ slots so I kind of liked it. Especially if we get boned on the Priests / FnP again.

[Tyriks]

Anyone else notice that they listed BA and Imperium as distinct factions on that article?

[Jolemai]

Well, we are. Just like Chaos and Thousand Sons are listed as different Factions.

 

However, all Marines will still be in the initial Marine book, just like all Chaos will be, etc.

[Tyriks]

I'm hoping this does mean that there will be BA specific detachments and such.  It would be annoying if it lists them as separate factions for no reason...

[BoneCloud]

 

 

I just want to know what the Blood Angels look like upon initial release... I'm reminded of 4th ed when we got a "stop-gap" White Dwarf codex which lasted until 5th ed; in which case I'd expect us to get a general standard Space Marine treatment with some bonus like +1 to Charge.

 

I know eventually they will release actual "codex" with the proper force-org etc, and as super optimistic as I am about the core rules, I am still weary of our initial line-up until that point.

 

 

 

Anyone else a little worried for the Flesh Tearers? The story doesn't seem to be boding well for them in this next round of story advancements.

So Flesh Tearers took a hit on Cryptus but most of the chapter should be all moved to Baal. I want to say there was only a company with Gabriel for Cryptus. The rest will likely will stand and fall with their parent chapter from what I would imagine. Given that flesh tearers were already low volume (I wanna say about 600-700 marines total?) things aren't looking good there.

 

One thing that is against us in the upcoming war is that Ultramarines (closest war similar to this one) had an extensive system defensive force of guardsmen. We likely do not have this so its going to be just marines versus nids/deamons. The one saving grace is that it was already established that we have extensive training on tyranid tactics both before and after Cryptus so experience may save the day ultimately.

 

Generally I don't like our chances. For BA, 1st and 2nd(?) company are severely depleted (probably 25-50 dudes left in each). 3rd company is on Armageddon. 5th is totally gone. I am pretty sure we are out of Sanguinary guard too. So unless there is respite from a supporting chapter/army, we are pretty screwed.

 

 

I am worried about how BA will fare in 8th ed. Sure BA (and SW - they seem to be in a similar position) will have rules at launch, but how long will GW continue supporting them ? They seem to be squatting BA in the fluff, whilst pushing Guilliman's New Marines in both models and fluff.

 

 

It is time for the => What do we know :

 

In the New Fluff =>  "To the Imperium it is the Cicatrix Maledictum, or just the Great Rift. To those on the Terran side, it is a tainted scar across the sky. To those unfortunates on the far side, it is far worse…"

 

So the Imperium is divided in Two. Both side now independant from the other. Most of the Blood Angels forces and some of their successors are on the "far side"...ALONE. (So no Guilliman Super-marine reinforcement...etc...normally, if GW is logical.)

 

In the Dante Novel => Lots of successors already answered positively to the Call of Dante for the defence of Baal, but there are some whose answers are still awaited.

 

Angels Encarmine gathers at Chapter Strenght (800 to 1k brothers), Blood Drinkers send 4 entire company (400 brothers). Angels Numinous/Angels Sanguine/Flesh Eaters/Exsanguinators and Knights of Blood presence confirmed. Dante refused to call the Angels Vermillon for help, and the Lamenters answered negatively.

 

In is stated that a minimum of 5000 to a maximum of 15000 Blood Angels & Successors brothers will be present for the defence of BAAL. But how will the Cicatrix Maledictum affect the Defence of BAAL remains to be answered.

 

Flesh Tearers Forces =>

 

In the recent Dante novel, Seth State that he lost Two Hundred brother fighting for the Blood Angels cause. (So most likely 150 in the Cryptian War, and 50 in the events just before, because, in the A Son's Burden Short Story, Seth left half a scouts company to die on the world of Nekkaris.)

 

But

 

In the Shield of Baal Lore, it is stated that Seth joined with elements from his 1st/2nd and 3rd Company, most likely the entirety of the 3. Leaving the 4th and 5th on Armageddon.

 

"There are scarely four hundred Flesh Tearers left, and at the time of the Cryptan War more than half of the Chapter's number - some five under-strenght companies - were deployed in the war zones of Armageddon." Shield of Baal Exterminatus the Rules

 

"Decimated by centuries of war and madness, the Flesh Tearers Chapter has been reduced to less than half of its former strenght." Shield of Baal Exterminatus the Rules

 

Maybe because i'm french, so i read it wrong, but to me, in the Shield of Baal Exterminatus Lore, the Flesh Tearers have ~400 brothers alive, with half of it on Armageddon and the other half under Seth command.

 

So, i don't think we need to do mathematic to point the fact that there is a little problem regarding the current Flesh Tearers forces.

 

So either the Flesh Tearers on Armageddon left this Warzone to join Baal before the events of the Cicatrix Maledictum or Seth will barely have 50 brothers left to defend BAAL with him. Another point, is the fact that all other Chapter Command units of the Flesh Tearers (Chief Librarian Luciferus/Reclusiarch and High Sanguinary Priest notably) are not mentioned as present during the Cryptian War....

 

In the End, the Flesh Tearers fluff is quite full of holes....for the moment.

 

Thanks for the rundown! I didn't realize there was some of the chapter left on Armageddon. I don't think BA will be squatted, and I was thinking purely from a fluff point of view that it would make sense if Flesh Tearers had a final stand on Baal proving their loyalty to their chapter and the imperium, etc. They are my first real 40k love and if they are going to be slaughtered down to a man, I hope it's in a way that does them justice...but I really have no idea what's going to happen and I can't wait until Devastation of Baal comes out to find out!

[Charlo]

I'm hoping this does mean that there will be BA specific detachments and such.  It would be annoying if it lists them as separate factions for no reason...

 

If / when we get the "codex" treatment, then we'll get some extra stuff like ways to spend command points, detachments and whatever else they put into 8th!

[Damon Nightman]

I think it's incredibly safe to assume that the Devestation of Baal book will coincide with a supplement/warzone book thing that will provide us (and probably nids) with more unique rules...

[BoneCloud]

I have a feeling the warp storm division might break up which units belong to the "imperium" and which don't, at least initially. I mean, I don't think there is a particularly easy way for Space Marine 2.0's to come to the aid of the BA easily as the story stands now.

 

Someone who knows more than me might be able to answer this, but, can that giant warp storm even be traversed by ship? 

 

I know this was more of a rules discussion, but I often try to justify rules with fluff 

[Tyriks]

Actually, I thought of another option for the factions.  BA might be our only faction and Imperium might be the catch-all for stuff too small to fit into a chart on it's own (like assassins, Imperial Agents).

 

EDIT:  I didn't know that AoS does dual factions but gives bonuses if your whole army is the same, so they probably will do that.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Tyriks

[Frater Antodeniel]

 

I hope chapter masters like Dante go back to being a HQ choice!

 

Well there isn't even a Lord of War slot on those force-org. But having Dante as a LoW did free up 2 HQ slots so I kind of liked it. Especially if we get boned on the Priests / FnP again.

 

 

Sorry, but there is a "Lord of War" icon...so Dante (and Seth) are likely to stay as LOW choices.

 

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Hmm interesting. They aren't included in any of those Forge-orgs though... weird.

[tkni]

There is, but the LoW slot appears to be absent from the three (primary? basic?) detachments they've shown us.

 

It's likely, given GW have said Knights are a viable army, there'll be a LoW detachment, but that seems a very clunky way to include our characters...

[Jolemai]

The shown ones are just samples, we have no idea if they are basic or anything.

 

IMO they are shown to display different sizes of game (Patrol echoes the ancient Combat Patrol FOC with was limited at 500 points) and I reckon we'll still be able to field multiple Detachments within an army.

[Frater Antodeniel]

 

It is interresting to consider this particular Detachement as the new "Combined Arms detachment" and that from this point of view to note that the Troops minimum come from 2 to 3, the Elite max from 3 to 6 and the HQ max 2 to 3.

 

Personally, i think that this particular Detachement is a good basis for 1000 to 2000 points games, and that it is optimized for 1500 points games.

[Jolemai]

Is there something in the water today? We appear to be agreeing on things :p Edited May 5, 2017 by Jolemai

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Am I the only bloke who wants vanilla chapter masters for the successor chapters of Sanguinius? That is definitely something I wish for with each new addition.

[redshadow]

are fortifcations gone :(

[Panda_Saurus_Rex]

Is there something in the water today? We appear to be agreeing on things

 

 

I agree with this as well. I did some toying around on Battlescribe; and even though we don't know what the point system looks like yet, you can make a fairly punchy list using the Battalion Detachment. 

 

This is what I have at 2k:

 

Death Company Chap - Fyrestorm

Death Company Chap - Guilded Crozius

 

Death Co Dread - Blood Talons, Lucius Pod

Death Co Dread - Blood Talons, Lucius Pod

 

Death Co (X5) - JP, PF

Death Co (X5) - JP, PF

Death Co (X5) - JP, PF

 

Scouts (X5) - cloaks, ML

Scouts (X5) - cloaks, ML

Scouts (X5) - cloaks, ML

Scouts (X5) - cloaks, ML

 

Vindicator - Siege shield, OC engines

Baal Pred - AC,HB

[Jolemai]

are fortifcations gone :(

There are nine battlefield roles and fortifications remain one of them. The above Detachments are samples of what to expect.

[ThatOneMarshal]

Personally I'm pretty excited about formations being gutted although this means that the awesome luckier armoires task force is gone. We didn't exactly have stellar formation to begin with :D.