8th Edition & BA

[RedemptionNL]

"Running has been rolled into the Movement phase now, too. You can “Advance” when you move by rolling a dice and adding the result to your Movement to go a bit faster at the expense of shooting."

 

But not at the expense of charging (aka old style Fleet for everyone)? Assault terminators and such certainly wouldn't mind that.

[Charlo]

"Running has been rolled into the Movement phase now, too. You can “Advance” when you move by rolling a dice and adding the result to your Movement to go a bit faster at the expense of shooting."

 

But not at the expense of charging (aka old style Fleet for everyone)? Assault terminators and such certainly wouldn't mind that.

 

I'd wager charging will also happen in the movement phase at double move or something. I don't thing Run+charge will be a thing outside of certain units.

[NTaW]

Not gunna lie I like charging in the movement phase, a la Shadow War. It is, brass tax, a movement after all.

 

We'll see what happens as more spoilers are released! They did mention in a comment to a hater on their Fb page to "give us a week, and you'll have enough info to decide that it's (the new edition is) awesome". Maybe despite May's WD being all about the 40th anniversary we'll be getting the full picture soon?

[Indefragable]

 

"Running has been rolled into the Movement phase now, too. You can “Advance” when you move by rolling a dice and adding the result to your Movement to go a bit faster at the expense of shooting."

 

But not at the expense of charging (aka old style Fleet for everyone)? Assault terminators and such certainly wouldn't mind that.

 

I'd wager charging will also happen in the movement phase at double move or something. I don't thing Run+charge will be a thing outside of certain units.

 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Run + Charge very much is a thing. You're forgoing Shooting altogether, after all.

 

Part of the imbalance of 7th was that some units (like BIKES) could do it all, while melee-only footsloggers were absolutely handicapped since they could move 6" and then hope to get a 12" Charge. Run + Charge would actually even the playing field quite a bit (watch out for Orkz and Tyranids!). Especially with the new Fall Back mechanic, it's a lot more viable to consider than our 7th Ed minds would think.

[Father Mapple]

Falling back is going to be a BAD idea against a quality melee force. Charging lets you strike first... so why fall back probably just enough to get charged again the following turn and give the melee units charging bonuses AGAIN? You're going to need ANOTHER unit to be the one shooting at the melee unit. Especially if falling back means no overwatch or shooting next turn. That's the difference actual firing lines make. You have separate units staged behind each other, so every turn at least one line is shooting while the other flees through the preceding line. But you are counting on 1 round of both firing, then losing 1/2 or 1/x (x being the number of lines) of firing power not fleeing.

 

The better case is for avoiding dreadnoughts, or fleeing through terrain or something else that gives cover or hinders the chargers. 

[appiah4]

Falling back is going to be a BAD idea against a quality melee force. Charging lets you strike first... so why fall back probably just enough to get charged again the following turn and give the melee units charging bonuses AGAIN? You're going to need ANOTHER unit to be the one shooting at the melee unit. Especially if falling back means no overwatch or shooting next turn. That's the difference actual firing lines make. You have separate units staged behind each other, so every turn at least one line is shooting while the other flees through the preceding line. But you are counting on 1 round of both firing, then losing 1/2 or 1/x (x being the number of lines) of firing power not fleeing.

 

The better case is for avoiding dreadnoughts, or fleeing through terrain or something else that gives cover or hinders the chargers.

Because when you fall back you can shoot them dead and not worry about getting charged again?

 

Or because you are Tau and have I3 anyway?

 

Etc.

[RedemptionNL]

Well, Tau won't have I3 anymore, as Initiative is gone.

[Panzer]

Falling back is going to be a BAD idea against a quality melee force. Charging lets you strike first... so why fall back probably just enough to get charged again the following turn and give the melee units charging bonuses AGAIN? You're going to need ANOTHER unit to be the one shooting at the melee unit. Especially if falling back means no overwatch or shooting next turn. That's the difference actual firing lines make. You have separate units staged behind each other, so every turn at least one line is shooting while the other flees through the preceding line. But you are counting on 1 round of both firing, then losing 1/2 or 1/x (x being the number of lines) of firing power not fleeing.

 

The better case is for avoiding dreadnoughts, or fleeing through terrain or something else that gives cover or hinders the chargers. 

Well unless you are a quality shooting force. That doesn't have to be worried about a charge from that unit next turn. ;)

 

 

Also guys, everything Tau has/had I2 and WS2 except for Drones and Auxiliaries (and HQ of course) lol

[Father Mapple]

The article on movement said the unit fleeing couldn't shoot or do anything the next turn. So it would have to be other units doing the shooting, as I outlined in the firing lines example.. 

[Panzer]

The article on movement said the unit fleeing couldn't shoot or do anything the next turn. So it would have to be other units doing the shooting, as I outlined in the firing lines example.. 

Nobody said anything about the same unit that falls back shooting the opponent tho?

[Frater Antodeniel]

About the movement thing, i can now clearly see how it may benefits the Blood Angels :

 

Blood Angels are equiped with the same power armour suit as the other Astartes, so giving Blood Angels a RAW bonus move, seem, indeed, as previously said, quite "dumb".

 

BUT....Blood Angels favor Jump Pack tactics, and i think, that it is with the Jump Pack that Blood Angels may got a Movement Bonus. (And maybe Skimmers and Flyers....that would also make sense, in some ways...)

 

Edit : And with those LUCIFER ENGINES......

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Also, there is no worry to have about the fall back since :

 

You charge => Fight => Your enemy fall back => You can now Move/Shoot/Charge Anew....to a new unit...or the same that flee^^.

 

You charge => Fight => Your enemies dies => You can now Move/Shoot/Charge Anew....to a new unit.

 

No really, i can only see this like a good thing, since wether the enemy unit die or fall back, in the end for our unit it will be the same.

 

Personally, i can even imagine that it would free some powerfull units (Terminators for exemple) from Hordes units...(5 Terminators being charged by 30 gaunts...blocked for 3 turns....)

Edited April 27, 2017 by Frater Antodeniel

[Quixus]

 

 

"Running has been rolled into the Movement phase now, too. You can “Advance” when you move by rolling a dice and adding the result to your Movement to go a bit faster at the expense of shooting."

 

But not at the expense of charging (aka old style Fleet for everyone)? Assault terminators and such certainly wouldn't mind that.

 

I'd wager charging will also happen in the movement phase at double move or something. I don't thing Run+charge will be a thing outside of certain units.

 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Run + Charge very much is a thing. You're forgoing Shooting altogether, after all.

Let's hope it there is no requirement to forgo shooting. Assault terminators do not have any shooting to forgo.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

About the movement thing, i can now clearly see how it may benefits the Blood Angels :

 

Blood Angels are equiped with the same power armour suit as the other Astartes, so giving Blood Angels a RAW bonus move, seem, indeed, as previously said, quite "dumb".

 

BUT....Blood Angels favor Jump Pack tactics, and i think, that it is with the Jump Pack that Blood Angels may got a Movement Bonus. (And maybe Skimmers and Flyers....that would also make sense, in some ways...)

 

Edit : And with those LUCIFER ENGINES......

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Also, there is no worry to have about the fall back since :

 

You charge => Fight => Your enemy fall back => You can now Move/Shoot/Charge Anew....to a new unit...or the same that flee^^.

 

You charge => Fight => Your enemies dies => You can now Move/Shoot/Charge Anew....to a new unit.

 

No really, i can only see this like a good thing, since wether the enemy unit die or fall back, in the end for our unit it will be the same.

 

Personally, i can even imagine that it would free some powerfull units (Terminators for exemple) from Hordes units...(5 Terminators being charged by 30 gaunts...blocked for 3 turns....)

Not entirely true. That unit might fall back but at that point its the opponents turn and so all his other units can shoot you down. In both scenarios actually.

[Arkangilos]

I love the new movement rules, especially the idea of firing lines.

 

If you position right, you can charge. Next turn if you need to, you can have the other line close enough that you can fall back behind the line and seal it off, and then gun the enemy down with the non fallback ones. Sure, they can charge, but if you are better in combat they might not. Then, the unit that fell behind the line can charge forward again on their wings of fire and repeat.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Arkangilos

[BloodTzar]

I think the failing-back rule gives you the chance to countercharge hard, just imagine, you have unit that is locked in cc with enemy death-star. You can encircle them in movement, than fall back , other units do some shooting, and u can now countercharge with other squads, while still going 1st.

 

On the other hand, what scares me off, is the off-sequence stuff that has been introduced with the eldar-mix race. Just imagine this in 8th ed environment (moreover if this would be a trend for other armies) they just can pull off counter-charge after counter-charge in your turn like nothing....topped with the uncertainty that the turn after turn roll of for whose turn it is; isn't implemented in 40k as well.

 

~BT

Edited April 27, 2017 by BloodTzar

[tkni]

 

Not entirely true. That unit might fall back but at that point its the opponents turn and so all his other units can shoot you down. In both scenarios actually.

 

Quite. It effectively invalidates the (old, now, I guess) notion of not wanting to overkill the unit you're charging, lest you lose the protection of being locked in combat.

 

On the other hand, if there's now (effectively, relatively) no penalty for overkilling a unit on the charge, then it's 15-man DC units all round...!

[Nemisor]

 

 

Not entirely true. That unit might fall back but at that point its the opponents turn and so all his other units can shoot you down. In both scenarios actually.

 

Quite. It effectively invalidates the (old, now, I guess) notion of not wanting to overkill the unit you're charging, lest you lose the protection of being locked in combat.

 

On the other hand, if there's now (effectively, relatively) no penalty for overkilling a unit on the charge, then it's 15-man DC units all round...!

 

 

i was about to say " and the chaplin for the re rolls" but we have no idea what rules were going to get come 8th. hell we could even end up with our rending DC back like the pdf dex. 

[ThatOneMarshal]

 

 

 

 

 

Not entirely true. That unit might fall back but at that point its the opponents turn and so all his other units can shoot you down. In both scenarios actually.

 

Quite. It effectively invalidates the (old, now, I guess) notion of not wanting to overkill the unit you're charging, lest you lose the protection of being locked in combat.

 

On the other hand, if there's now (effectively, relatively) no penalty for overkilling a unit on the charge, then it's 15-man DC units all round...!

i was about to say " and the chaplin for the re rolls" but we have no idea what rules were going to get come 8th. hell we could even end up with our rending DC back like the pdf dex.

The cynic in me says we get 5th edition rage for them.

[appiah4]

The fall back thing makes Boltgun DC monsters.  

 

On the attack: You shoot and charge a unit, if what remains of it falls back, you get to double tap them to shreds and charge another unit.  If they don't, you get protection from enemy shooting.

 

On the defense: You get charged, you fall back and if they re-charge you get to do another round of double tap overwatch.

 

Boltgun DC all the way my friends.

Edited April 28, 2017 by appiah5

[The Unseen]

{

 

 

There is seriously nothing wrong with the change to bolters. Orks, IG, and Nids among others have suffered looooong enough in a game where a very very popular weapon invalidates there entire army from getting the ability to live(or even make it across the board for that matter). It serves as to better balance the game and it will work and is for the best.

 

If you think flamers are good too just imagine heavy flames BA look to be in a good spot with the few leaks we have so far, can't wait to see whats in store to differentiate them from other space marine chapters

 

Krash

Orks, IG, and Nids problems weren't that bolters killed them. Their armor save was the same, or worse, than the equivalent cover save that's pretty much all over a good 40k table. Bolters weren't good in 7th, they haven't been even halfway decent guns since like 3rd.

 

Tau get better range, strength, and ap, eldar get psuedo-rending or poisoned on literally everything, lasguns with FRSRF are literally just better than bolters (in 7th) against anything with an armor save better than 5+ or that has their butts parked inside cover, necrons get to glance vehicles, every single gun in the mechanicus books laugh at how pitiful bolters are, Orks and Nids both aren't shooting armies, but they still do better than tactical marines thanks to ridiculous numbers of shots.

 

The only army with an objectively worse shooting game than the bolter is freaking Chaos Daemons, because they don't have guns at all.

Every other army in the game has either a better gun/way more bullets baseline, or their firing bolters.

 

And it appears that 8th is going to not do anything about the fact that the supposedly well-equipped super soldier flagboys of the setting are still stuck with the worst gun in the game.

 

Anyway, flamers and lascannons both relying a single d6 roll to decide their actual value is going to make them really reliant on RNG and feel super swingy. Not a good thing if your wanting to move a game system away from the current "spam medium strength high rate of fire guns and kill everything" format. They should've been at least d6+1, just so their always at least a little bit better than other guns. As of right now, that flamer has a 1/3 chance of causing about as much damage as a bolter in the same spot.

A lascannon with those stats firing at a T7 creature causes an average of 2 wounds, but has a 40% chance to not do anything. (.6 chance of hitting and wounding, times average of a d6, 3.5) A scatter laser, assuming 4 shots at Str 6, causes (rounded up from .88) 1 wound before saves, but is going to very consistently cause that 1 wound. So lascannons are going to be swingy versus big things but are still the superior gun (though not by as much as I would like). But when you fire that same lascannon at infantry, the lascannon has a 60% chance to vaporize 1 dude, and a 40% chance to do nothing. The scatter laser is going to put a little over 2 wounds onto any infantry target with T4 or less before saves, very consistently. You guys can see where this is going...

 

 

 I just wanted balance so I don't deploy my soldiers on the board and remove them when a cool breeze blows by. And yes having almost every weapon in the game ignore your armor is a problem. 

 

Here maybe you can understand this.

 

You pay the points for power armor per space marine right? And I bet you get to roll armor saves. Well I pay points for my flak armor on my guardsmen. I rarely get to use my flak armor. 

 

Especially against Space marines never mind xenos. This will bring lightly armored armies a chance to live and be useful as opposed to just a tax...this is to improve the game. I mean if your a fan of all biker list or Taudar list or Tyranid flying circus thats fine, but it's not healthy for the meta in the slightest. So yeah Orks, IG, and Nids all deserve a chance to be able to hold the line...or make it across the board for emperors sake. 

 

This is a welcomed change and it is happening. Every army without a 3+ save benefits from this. 

 

But of course maybe "Bolters" have some sort of -1 armor save effect I mean we don't know everything...yet, keep an open mind.

 

And remember Bolters still wound T3 on 3's...the sky isn't falling

 

 

 

 

There is seriously nothing wrong with the change to bolters. Orks, IG, and Nids among others have suffered looooong enough in a game where a very very popular weapon invalidates there entire army from getting the ability to live(or even make it across the board for that matter). It serves as to better balance the game and it will work and is for the best.

 

If you think flamers are good too just imagine heavy flames BA look to be in a good spot with the few leaks we have so far, can't wait to see whats in store to differentiate them from other space marine chapters

 

Krash

Orks, IG, and Nids problems weren't that bolters killed them.Their armor save was the same, or worse, than the equivalent cover save that's pretty much all over a good 40k table. Bolters weren't good in 7th, they haven't been even halfway decent guns since like 3rd.

 

Tau get better range, strength, and ap, eldar get psuedo-rending or poisoned on literally everything, lasguns with FRSRF are literally just better than bolters (in 7th) against anything with an armor save better than 5+ or that has their butts parked inside cover, necrons get to glance vehicles, every single gun in the mechanicus books laugh at how pitiful bolters are, Orks and Nids both aren't shooting armies, but they still do better than tactical marines thanks to ridiculous numbers of shots.

 

The only army with an objectively worse shooting game than the bolter is freaking Chaos Daemons, because they don't have guns at all.

Every other army in the game has either a better gun/way more bullets baseline, or their firing bolters.

 

And it appears that 8th is going to not do anything about the fact that the supposedly well-equipped super soldier flagboys of the setting are still stuck with the worst gun in the game.

 

Anyway, flamers and lascannons both relying a single d6 roll to decide their actual value is going to make them really reliant on RNG and feel super swingy. Not a good thing if your wanting to move a game system away from the current "spam medium strength high rate of fire guns and kill everything" format. They should've been at least d6+1, just so their always at least a little bit better than other guns. As of right now, that flamer has a 1/3 chance of causing about as much damage as a bolter in the same spot.

A lascannon with those stats firing at a T7 creature causes an average of 2 wounds, but has a 40% chance to not do anything. (.6 chance of hitting and wounding, times average of a d6, 3.5) A scatter laser, assuming 4 shots at Str 6, causes (rounded up from .88) 1 wound before saves, but is going to very consistently cause that 1 wound. So lascannons are going to be swingy versus big things but are still the superior gun (though not by as much as I would like). But when you fire that same lascannon at infantry, the lascannon has a 60% chance to vaporize 1 dude, and a 40% chance to do nothing. The scatter laser is going to put a little over 2 wounds onto any infantry target with T4 or less before saves, very consistently. You guys can see where this is going...

 

 

1. Don't forget that we don't have the full picture yet. SO many pieces are moving and SO many things are changing that so many of our 7th ed ways of thinking about things may go right out the window. Those weapon stats are all we know at the moment. I have a really strong feeling that pretty much any non-bolter, non-Tau (cuz range is their thing) small arms will all be S3, including Eldar shuriken weapons.

 

2. In concert with #1 above, we don't know what the worst gun in the game is yet because we don't know what everyone else gets yet

 

3. As for doing D6 Damage with flamers/lascannons....I think it will come out in a wash. Units with single special weapons, like Tacticals, will by the most swingy for sure. But Devastators are going to earn their money and then some. 4D6 worth of Wounds stacking onto a tank/MC? Yes please! I think it will actually work out that specialized units become important for the reason that having 4x melta command squads and whatnot help even out the risk/reward of D6 damage per gun/et al.

 

}

(Spoiler tags for a bunch of long quotes)

 

Nice try, but I don't play any of that cheese. I want balance too, and you know what hasn't been balanced in a long time? The fact the bolters, and marine weapons in general, suck. They are objectively bad, and this is a direct nerf.

 

Will others things possibly get nerfed as well to bring everything to par? Possibly, I have no concrete info whatsoever. But somehow I doubt that their actually going to nerf xenos weapons, it would be breaking a GW tradition that is 5 editions long. Every time xenos, (and new imperial factions for that matter) get better equipment, and marines just get cheaper to make up for the fact that they in effect just get worse. The one exception to that is Grav, an entirely new weapon class thats so broken it single-handedly carries marine lists (along with free transports)

 

 

And in regards to the comment about "lightly armored infantry" being a tax, you do realize that guardsmen point for point are better than any marine unit in power armor right?  Cause that's how balance works, you compare units not on a 1 to 1 ratio, but on a points relationship? So yeah, that marine with his bolter for sure wins that 1v1 shooting match versus a guardsman in the open. Except that the guardsman has the points to bring 2 of his buddies to that fight. And guess what, the marine loses that fight

 

So don't worry, I'm not going apoplectic over here, more just severely disappointed in that marines have needed a re-work for like 10 years now, and they didn't get it, and GW hasn't shown any indication that they want to make marines anything other than a horde army with crippling identity issues, cause hey, gotta make people buy more marines somehow.

 

I do like running in the movement phase, about 3/4ths of the people I played with houseruled it that way anyway.

[Panzer]

{

 

 

There is seriously nothing wrong with the change to bolters. Orks, IG, and Nids among others have suffered looooong enough in a game where a very very popular weapon invalidates there entire army from getting the ability to live(or even make it across the board for that matter). It serves as to better balance the game and it will work and is for the best.

 

If you think flamers are good too just imagine heavy flames BA look to be in a good spot with the few leaks we have so far, can't wait to see whats in store to differentiate them from other space marine chapters

 

Krash

Orks, IG, and Nids problems weren't that bolters killed them. Their armor save was the same, or worse, than the equivalent cover save that's pretty much all over a good 40k table. Bolters weren't good in 7th, they haven't been even halfway decent guns since like 3rd.

 

Tau get better range, strength, and ap, eldar get psuedo-rending or poisoned on literally everything, lasguns with FRSRF are literally just better than bolters (in 7th) against anything with an armor save better than 5+ or that has their butts parked inside cover, necrons get to glance vehicles, every single gun in the mechanicus books laugh at how pitiful bolters are, Orks and Nids both aren't shooting armies, but they still do better than tactical marines thanks to ridiculous numbers of shots.

 

The only army with an objectively worse shooting game than the bolter is freaking Chaos Daemons, because they don't have guns at all.

Every other army in the game has either a better gun/way more bullets baseline, or their firing bolters.

 

And it appears that 8th is going to not do anything about the fact that the supposedly well-equipped super soldier flagboys of the setting are still stuck with the worst gun in the game.

 

Anyway, flamers and lascannons both relying a single d6 roll to decide their actual value is going to make them really reliant on RNG and feel super swingy. Not a good thing if your wanting to move a game system away from the current "spam medium strength high rate of fire guns and kill everything" format. They should've been at least d6+1, just so their always at least a little bit better than other guns. As of right now, that flamer has a 1/3 chance of causing about as much damage as a bolter in the same spot.

A lascannon with those stats firing at a T7 creature causes an average of 2 wounds, but has a 40% chance to not do anything. (.6 chance of hitting and wounding, times average of a d6, 3.5) A scatter laser, assuming 4 shots at Str 6, causes (rounded up from .88) 1 wound before saves, but is going to very consistently cause that 1 wound. So lascannons are going to be swingy versus big things but are still the superior gun (though not by as much as I would like). But when you fire that same lascannon at infantry, the lascannon has a 60% chance to vaporize 1 dude, and a 40% chance to do nothing. The scatter laser is going to put a little over 2 wounds onto any infantry target with T4 or less before saves, very consistently. You guys can see where this is going...

 

 

 I just wanted balance so I don't deploy my soldiers on the board and remove them when a cool breeze blows by. And yes having almost every weapon in the game ignore your armor is a problem. 

 

Here maybe you can understand this.

 

You pay the points for power armor per space marine right? And I bet you get to roll armor saves. Well I pay points for my flak armor on my guardsmen. I rarely get to use my flak armor. 

 

Especially against Space marines never mind xenos. This will bring lightly armored armies a chance to live and be useful as opposed to just a tax...this is to improve the game. I mean if your a fan of all biker list or Taudar list or Tyranid flying circus thats fine, but it's not healthy for the meta in the slightest. So yeah Orks, IG, and Nids all deserve a chance to be able to hold the line...or make it across the board for emperors sake. 

 

This is a welcomed change and it is happening. Every army without a 3+ save benefits from this. 

 

But of course maybe "Bolters" have some sort of -1 armor save effect I mean we don't know everything...yet, keep an open mind.

 

And remember Bolters still wound T3 on 3's...the sky isn't falling

 

 

 

 

There is seriously nothing wrong with the change to bolters. Orks, IG, and Nids among others have suffered looooong enough in a game where a very very popular weapon invalidates there entire army from getting the ability to live(or even make it across the board for that matter). It serves as to better balance the game and it will work and is for the best.

 

If you think flamers are good too just imagine heavy flames BA look to be in a good spot with the few leaks we have so far, can't wait to see whats in store to differentiate them from other space marine chapters

 

Krash

Orks, IG, and Nids problems weren't that bolters killed them.Their armor save was the same, or worse, than the equivalent cover save that's pretty much all over a good 40k table. Bolters weren't good in 7th, they haven't been even halfway decent guns since like 3rd.

 

Tau get better range, strength, and ap, eldar get psuedo-rending or poisoned on literally everything, lasguns with FRSRF are literally just better than bolters (in 7th) against anything with an armor save better than 5+ or that has their butts parked inside cover, necrons get to glance vehicles, every single gun in the mechanicus books laugh at how pitiful bolters are, Orks and Nids both aren't shooting armies, but they still do better than tactical marines thanks to ridiculous numbers of shots.

 

The only army with an objectively worse shooting game than the bolter is freaking Chaos Daemons, because they don't have guns at all.

Every other army in the game has either a better gun/way more bullets baseline, or their firing bolters.

 

And it appears that 8th is going to not do anything about the fact that the supposedly well-equipped super soldier flagboys of the setting are still stuck with the worst gun in the game.

 

Anyway, flamers and lascannons both relying a single d6 roll to decide their actual value is going to make them really reliant on RNG and feel super swingy. Not a good thing if your wanting to move a game system away from the current "spam medium strength high rate of fire guns and kill everything" format. They should've been at least d6+1, just so their always at least a little bit better than other guns. As of right now, that flamer has a 1/3 chance of causing about as much damage as a bolter in the same spot.

A lascannon with those stats firing at a T7 creature causes an average of 2 wounds, but has a 40% chance to not do anything. (.6 chance of hitting and wounding, times average of a d6, 3.5) A scatter laser, assuming 4 shots at Str 6, causes (rounded up from .88) 1 wound before saves, but is going to very consistently cause that 1 wound. So lascannons are going to be swingy versus big things but are still the superior gun (though not by as much as I would like). But when you fire that same lascannon at infantry, the lascannon has a 60% chance to vaporize 1 dude, and a 40% chance to do nothing. The scatter laser is going to put a little over 2 wounds onto any infantry target with T4 or less before saves, very consistently. You guys can see where this is going...

 

 

1. Don't forget that we don't have the full picture yet. SO many pieces are moving and SO many things are changing that so many of our 7th ed ways of thinking about things may go right out the window. Those weapon stats are all we know at the moment. I have a really strong feeling that pretty much any non-bolter, non-Tau (cuz range is their thing) small arms will all be S3, including Eldar shuriken weapons.

 

2. In concert with #1 above, we don't know what the worst gun in the game is yet because we don't know what everyone else gets yet

 

3. As for doing D6 Damage with flamers/lascannons....I think it will come out in a wash. Units with single special weapons, like Tacticals, will by the most swingy for sure. But Devastators are going to earn their money and then some. 4D6 worth of Wounds stacking onto a tank/MC? Yes please! I think it will actually work out that specialized units become important for the reason that having 4x melta command squads and whatnot help even out the risk/reward of D6 damage per gun/et al.

 

}

(Spoiler tags for a bunch of long quotes)

 

Nice try, but I don't play any of that cheese. I want balance too, and you know what hasn't been balanced in a long time? The fact the bolters, and marine weapons in general, suck. They are objectively bad, and this is a direct nerf.

 

Will others things possibly get nerfed as well to bring everything to par? Possibly, I have no concrete info whatsoever. But somehow I doubt that their actually going to nerf xenos weapons, it would be breaking a GW tradition that is 5 editions long. Every time xenos, (and new imperial factions for that matter) get better equipment, and marines just get cheaper to make up for the fact that they in effect just get worse. The one exception to that is Grav, an entirely new weapon class thats so broken it single-handedly carries marine lists (along with free transports)

 

 

And in regards to the comment about "lightly armored infantry" being a tax, you do realize that guardsmen point for point are better than any marine unit in power armor right?  Cause that's how balance works, you compare units not on a 1 to 1 ratio, but on a points relationship? So yeah, that marine with his bolter for sure wins that 1v1 shooting match versus a guardsman in the open. Except that the guardsman has the points to bring 2 of his buddies to that fight. And guess what, the marine loses that fight

 

So don't worry, I'm not going apoplectic over here, more just severely disappointed in that marines have needed a re-work for like 10 years now, and they didn't get it, and GW hasn't shown any indication that they want to make marines anything other than a horde army with crippling identity issues, cause hey, gotta make people buy more marines somehow.

 

I do like running in the movement phase, about 3/4ths of the people I played with houseruled it that way anyway.

It's a nerf when you compare old Bolter and new Bolter. But it's actually something like a reverse-buff since other, way more potent weapons, are now less good as well.

In 7th a AP4 weapon is SO much better than a Bolter since one completely ignores 4+ armor and the other doesn't (the already mentioned binary of the current system). In 8th (assuming AP4 will become AP-1 since Lascannons with AP2 are just AP-3) the difference is only very minor.

This levels the playing field and makes Bolter less worse compared to other weapons. Aka an indirect buff in the context of 8th edition.

 

Considering the doom gloom everything is bad GW view...well GW traditionally also had no community interaction and bad deals....now look what we have now with the new CEO. NewGW is best GW. :P

 

About the balance. You also don't just compare a unit on a points relationship but also on what the rest of the army has to offer. ;)

[Jolemai]

How can you say it's a nerf when you know absolutely nothing about the rest of the rules?

[Jorre]

The bolter thing surprised me also.... but its hardley conversation worthy without more detail.

 

God I hope gw gets this new edition right

[Frater Antodeniel]

You may believes that the Bolter got nerfed, but, it is 8th editions, and we must see at all the changes :

 

A few exemples :

 

=> Every units, Vehicles included, now have Toughness. You can now wound a dreadnought on a 6+ with a Bolter...the same goes for Flamers and Heavy Flamers...and wait for the Heavy Bolter to take its rightfull place.

 

=> Since, we can reasonably assume that the Rending Special Rule is gone => All Rending weapons (Eldars.....auto-wound on 6....) will likely have a -1/-2. rending value instead.

 

=> D-weapons are gone

 

=> With the Movement Characteristic, we can reasonably think that armies like Tau (The shooting units), will end up with a low movement (3 to 5"), while a Standart Astartes is 6".

[Xenith]

Odds on the game turn being:

 

P1 Movement

P1 movement

P1 shooting

P2 Shooting

P1 combat phase

P2 combat phase

 

?

 

That turn style would make more sense of the fall back rule mentioned.