8th Edition Guard Discussion

[duz_]

I like that vehicle squadrons are a lot more flexible in battle. No longer restricted to being a coherent unit once purchased!

[Thoridon]

Power weapons are dirt cheap now too. Where I avoided them completely before I might have to sprinkle some around my sergeants - a Power Axe would mean 5+ wound rolls on anything T5-T7, 4+ against T4 with some nice AP. Likely still avoid Power Fists as 5+ to hit with them would probably be wasting the points and they'd only help against T8.

 

I have to say I'm liking everything I've seen so far with the Guard changes. As has been said, if needing several slots to fill what would've been a single-slot Platoon means we gain command points by running extra (or bigger) detachments that will be a good thing. As it stands we might've lost the ability to blob Infantry squads but then it does make sense that blobbing would be left to basic Conscripts (which can still do it).

 

I'm seeing a lot more potential now for Infantry squads to run extra weapons, heavy weapon squads being worth using and the ability to include a lot more fun stuff with point reductions.

[Guest]

OMG that Volcano Cannon Max 6 hits with a max 12 damage per hit. Ok getting max (72 wounds) is going to require godlike luck... But damn... Oh you liked that Wraithknight did you? *Fires cannon*...

 

Hope you like its feet I left you. :)

[Thoridon]

 As a dedicated tread head I'm sad to see the important of vehicles diminished somewhat, even if that's just through cost, ...

 

Is the cost that bad? a Leman Russ Demolisher without sponsons was 170 points before, and with the 3 HP would typically be blown up when getting into range. Now the same build would cost 180 points (assuming a Heavy Bolter on the hull) but has gained durability with the switch to T/W and no more vehicle damage table. The same with the Battle Tank, 160 vs 150 without Sponsons but enhanced durability.

 

Sponsons themselves are either the same price or slightly cheaper in the case of Heavy Bolters.

 

Add in that they no longer have to snapshot extra weapons after firing the main turrent (which itself will hit at full BS when moving) and can fire all weapons at different targets... I'd happily pay an extra 10 points per tank for the new package.

 

Transports are more expensive for every faction, reflecting the fact that they'll still be useful and durable after dropping units off rather than being cheap, spammed everywhere and half expected to not even survive beyond a turn. It'll just make us think a bit more about which units really need a transport.

[duz_]

The Taroux don't seem to be any more expensive? Or am I not counting the cost of the weapons... that is going to get old real quick having to include base weapons costs on top of unit costs

[Brother Talarian]

W-wait. Seeing as special weapons in a unit can fire at different targets.... does this mean... that a LR can choose to shoot his HB at infantry then blast a MC with his BC?

[Reyner]

W-wait. Seeing as special weapons in a unit can fire at different targets.... does this mean... that a LR can choose to shoot his HB at infantry then blast a MC with his BC?

Yep.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Some other tidbits I'm picking up perusing the leaked stuff ...

 

Platoon Commanders got a lot better for not a lot of cost. They have refractor fields now and 3 wounds and access to dirt cheap armoury options.

 

If I am reading things correctly, it seems that officers can take ANY weapons they want listed under "ranged weapons" so if you want to do some really rule of cool conversions you can now do stuff like give hotshot lasguns to sergeants or hotshot laspistols to officers if you don't feel like going all-in on plasma (although at the price of a meltabomb of yore, and no "gets hot" unless you want to, I expect to see a lot more plasma on characters). It is now actually worthwhile and legal to do the conversion I was daydreaming of to have a platoon commander with power fist and hotshot laspistol (for 1 point why not give them all hotshots -- with the new wound chart they are wounding a lot of stuff on 5+ that used to be 6+ and -2 AP).

 

Finally, I see Ratlings got a much needed reduction in points which is fairly important given the new importance of snipers. They're 1 point cheaper than veterans similarly armed but they can infiltrate. Can do special weapons teams for dirt dirt cheap with sniper rifles too as an alternative.

[duz_]

Yeh I was thinking about doing even Sgts with chainsword + lasgun

Still get the +2A in CC with the Chainsword, all you lose is the ability to shoot within 1" (without orders that is ;) )

[NatBrannigan]

The only thing I'm not really liking are the Russes, which seem a bit lack-luster but are hardly useless (so much like now) and the lack of Slabshield Bullgryns screening the units behind them. I really liked that rule. Frankly they're probably better now if anything but still... :(

 

Now I have a question. Is there anything stopping me from putting Veteran Squads in Taurox Primes? From putting anything with the Imperium keyword in there in fact?

[Reyner]

The only thing I'm not really liking are the Russes, which seem a bit lack-luster but are hardly useless (so much like now) and the lack of Slabshield Bullgryns screening the units behind them. I really liked that rule. Frankly they're probably better now if anything but still...

Now I have a question. Is there anything stopping me from putting Veteran Squads in Taurox Primes? From putting anything with the Imperium keyword in there in fact?

The rules for the Taurox Prime say it can carry 10 Militarum Tempestus or Fancy Word for Commissars - so don't reckon Veterans can use them.

[WarriorFish]

 As a dedicated tread head I'm sad to see the important of vehicles diminished somewhat, even if that's just through cost, ...

Is the cost that bad? a Leman Russ Demolisher without sponsons was 170 points before, and with the 3 HP would typically be blown up when getting into range. Now the same build would cost 180 points (assuming a Heavy Bolter on the hull) but has gained durability with the switch to T/W and no more vehicle damage table. The same with the Battle Tank, 160 vs 150 without Sponsons but enhanced durability.

 

Sponsons themselves are either the same price or slightly cheaper in the case of Heavy Bolters.

 

Add in that they no longer have to snapshot extra weapons after firing the main turrent (which itself will hit at full BS when moving) and can fire all weapons at different targets... I'd happily pay an extra 10 points per tank for the new package.

 

Transports are more expensive for every faction, reflecting the fact that they'll still be useful and durable after dropping units off rather than being cheap, spammed everywhere and half expected to not even survive beyond a turn. It'll just make us think a bit more about which units really need a transport.

That's not what I said. The cost is an aspect in some cases yes, but the large blast cannons that could do so well have been reduced in effectiveness as you need to roll randomly and then roll to hit for example. As much as I love my tanks I never liked having to rely on them to dish out the damage. As I said I think it all works out as it makes vehicles less important, but infantry more useful.

[duz_]

The D6 hits and still having to roll for each with BS4+ isn't ideal. You were probably better off with blast markers. However durability and damage inflicted per hit has increased significantly.

 

The Nova Cannon is actually kinda scary now you almost have to decide between it and the base LRBT!

[NatBrannigan]

I was expecting our vehicles to come down in price a bit actually. I know they are more survivable but they're also less killy. Hardly a disaster though :)

 

I see that about the Scions now, a shame but I'm glad GW have clearly thought things. I'm sure people out there could find hideous way to abuse the rules if they were TOO loose. I'd hate to start having Thunderwolves in Taurox Primes or some such nonsense.

 

All looks good to me. If anyone ever manages to actually shoot their Deathstrike let us know. The horror...

[NatBrannigan]

12 Bullgryns in a Stormlord is a steal at 850pts ;)

[Harrowmaster]

Pask hits on a 2 now meaning he's the best way to get use out of a vanquisher

[momerathe]

Someone pointed out to me on another forum that all Tau battlesuits have the "Fly" keyword. So do Eldar Jetbikes and skimmers.

 

Hydras, man, hydras.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Pask hits on a 2 now meaning he's the best way to get use out of a vanquisher

 

I note that all the special characters now, including Pask, are regiment specific. So Pask has keyword "Cadian" meaning he can only issue orders to Cadian tanks. I guess you can hand wave that away by calling your tanks "Cadians" and then assigning your troops to whatever regiment you want. For a fluff nazi like me that means no Pask, however, because I don't play Cadians.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Ok I was reading it all wrong.

 

The only "ranged weapons" options are bolter, bolt pistol, plasma pistol. So not cool hotshot conversions à la Shadow War for veteran sergeants or officers. But still, at the cost of a 7th edition meltabomb that doesn't get hot, I can't think of too many reasons to not take a few of them on some of your officers unless you're really tight for points.

[Lord Marshal]

My one major gripe is that Count-As'ing Kasrkin as Storm Troopers means they don't fall under the <Cadian> keyword and with the loss of carapace for Veterans it further muddies the waters. Here's hoping if they bring back Doctrines/Regiments in the main book there's an option for the 3.5 Grenadiers, or at least Kasrkin getting their own entry for Cadians... though I won't hold my breath.

[Yorkston]

Infantry and artillery have gotten better, but i'm not impressed by the tank changes.  Several of the LR variants just seem like worse versions of the predator now.  The Baneblade also takes the -1BS penalty from moving for some reason, even on the main gun.  And the hull-mounted variants seem to have lost the laser targetter upgrade option.  Also RIP Vendetta, you will be missed.

 

I'm happy that stormtroopers have a sane cost now though.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Having noted how much better platoon commanders are now, company commanders are a mere 10 points more for +1 wound and +1 order, and with the elite slot so packed, if we don't have to take platoon commanders, then I don't really see why we would. Just take company commanders instead, leaving more slots available for commissars, command squads, priests (if we want them), special weapon squads, etc.

 

I just "priced out" a 1500 point list and I can fairly easily make a Brigade Detachment.

[Brother Talarian]

Having noted how much better platoon commanders are now, company commanders are a mere 10 points more for +1 wound and +1 order, and with the elite slot so packed, if we don't have to take platoon commanders, then I don't really see why we would. Just take company commanders instead, leaving more slots available for commissars, command squads, priests (if we want them), special weapon squads, etc.

 

I just "priced out" a 1500 point list and I can fairly easily make a Brigade Detachment.

 

 

Mind sharing what's in your wonderful list? :D

[zero88]

Looks like hellstrike missiles are no longer one shot only eh? Their profile Makes no mention of it but it does for HK missiles

[marti350]

Looks like hellstrike missiles are no longer one shot only eh? Their profile Makes no mention of it but it does for HK missiles

 

On the Deathstrike dataslate it says you can only fire it once, and it is actually harder to fire now. it's turn number +d6 and if you don't get 8 or higher it doesn't shoot