8th Edition Guard Discussion

[Strength 10]

Did some of you try Valkyries ? 170~ points for a great transport (grav-chute is huge !!!) but with a bad firepower. While moving and with full health, you hit on 5+. Best you can do is hoover, not moving and having an officier of the fleet for ct4+ rerolling one.

 

At 1000 points, I find it expensive but I can't see how much my opponents can take on the battlefield with their own armies.

 

The guys at Frontline Gaming suggested the Valkyrie is now mostly great for dropping units on peoples heads. You can fit 3 command squads (each guy with a special weapon) in there for example. 

[Arkeo Nox]

The guys at Frontline Gaming suggested the Valkyrie is now mostly great for dropping units on peoples heads. You can fit 3 command squads (each guy with a special weapon) in there for example.

From my inquisition point of view, I'm going to put 12 acolyts with combi-flamers... 12d6 autohits (around 42 hits) of flamer and 24 shots of bolter. And if the target is a special opponent, I get rerolls for hitting and wounding. Against genestealers, it's around 20 wounds.

 

And if the target want to charge next turn, be ready for hell-overwatch ! ^^

[Gothical]

It has occurred to me that Valkyires are pretty amazing, if somewhat expensive by the standards of Russes/Predators etc.

 

Hellstrikes are no longer one-use and hit as hard as a Vanquisher Cannon and you can have a Lascannon in the nose for further AT punch.

 

Rocket Pods and Heavy Bolters really shine though, especially since you can shoot all your guns at any one target visible to any part of the model, so those door gunners can hit the same target now (pilots learned to pivot at last) - this means you can put down 8-18 S5 AP-1 shots in a single turn (averaging 13 shots).

 

Now, BS4+ is as mediocre as ever  - and it might even be 5+ due to all weapons being Heavy plus having a minimum move distance. I had heard Fly over-rides restriction but not seen it anywhere myself nor seen it mentioned since.

 

The solution is the Officer of the Fleet, who allows the Valkyrie to re-roll 1s at targets within 18" of the Officer. This might be hard to engineer with minimum move distances, but here's the clever part. The Strafing Co-Ordinates rule is measured at the start of the shooting phase, not at the start of the turn. The Valkyrie can carry 12 models and has a unique deployment method to move and then disembark the passengers. This means that you can deliver a full squad (in my case Veterans) to where you want them AND drop off the Officer at the same time to pick out your chosen target for the accuracy boost for the lovely guns on the Valk.

 

It's really quite tough too, especially when it is not hovering and has Airborne and Hard to Hit active and on top of that it has the toughness of a Dreadnought and more wounds than a Leman Russ!

 

 

On the non-Flyer front, although I initially wrote it off the Astropath is rather powerful now, as the rolling of 1 D6 for Psychic Tests only applies to the Smite power, not the power it knows from the Telepathica discipline. This means you can stack Astral Divination and Terrifying Visions together reasonably reliably to strip the opponent's cover save (great in Cities of Death where it's +2) AND drop them by 2 Leadership to make the Battleshock tests more painful after the (improved) volley. Oh, and Astral Divination works on any AM unit within 6", including vehicles - even Superheavies.

[Lemondish]

Now, BS4+ is as mediocre as ever  - and it might even be 5+ due to all weapons being Heavy plus having a minimum move distance. I had heard Fly over-rides restriction but not seen it anywhere myself nor seen it mentioned since.

 

The solution is the Officer of the Fleet, who allows the Valkyrie to re-roll 1s at targets within 18" of the Officer. This might be hard to engineer with minimum move distances, but here's the clever part. The Strafing Co-Ordinates rule is measured at the start of the shooting phase, not at the start of the turn. The Valkyrie can carry 12 models and has a unique deployment method to move and then disembark the passengers. This means that you can deliver a full squad (in my case Veterans) to where you want them AND drop off the Officer at the same time to pick out your chosen target for the accuracy boost for the lovely guns on the Valk.

 

It's really quite tough too, especially when it is not hovering and has Airborne and Hard to Hit active and on top of that it has the toughness of a Dreadnought and more wounds than a Leman Russ!

 

 

Hello! Extremely new to 40k, so forgive me if I make a dumb. Would this mean that a Valk with 1-3 wounds can't fire anything unless it hovers because the BS of 6 becomes impossible to meet given the rules for heavy weapons? I feel like I must be missing something about heavy weapons and flyers.

[duz_]

Yes correct BS6+ -1 for heavy & moved means you need to roll a 7+ on a single D6.

 

I hope they fix this issue and the Baneblade issue in the codex.

 

We should all thank them for their efforts on FB then complain loudly about these oversights. ;)

[Lemondish]

Yes correct BS6+ -1 for heavy & moved means you need to roll a 7+ on a single D6.

I hope they fix this issue and the Baneblade issue in the codex.

We should all thank them for their efforts on FB then complain loudly about these oversights.

I mean, in this case, is it really an oversight? At 1-3 wounds the Valk is pretty beat up. Might take the whole crew to even keep it in the air! Might as well just let it fly off into the sunset at that point, so I guess it effectively reduces the total wound count on Valks by 3 unless you want to hover and pray.

I mean, I would. Just for the heroic imagery. Which is probably why I'd make a crap commander to start.

[Brother Talarian]

Do Valks have a WS? Can have them charge/kamikaze into an enemy unit and tie them up if it comes to that hehe

[Shamansky]

Valks' WS is 6+. The rule Airborne states that it can charge and can be charged by units that can Fly. Also valks have Hover jet rule that if used cancels Airborne

[WarriorFish]

@HenricusTyranicus came up with a good point in his army list topic that I'd missed - with the new greater than 9" away Deep Strike mechanic it is now much easier to guarantee an enemy unit can't land where you don't want him to. Get plenty of cheap Guard squads and space them around to protect your valuable units and they will do so in many ways! Could be a great "envelop and destroy" method to deal with enemies trying to strike in and assault...

[Shamansky]

Brilliant! that's even better than platoon/conscript envelope

[H311fi5h]

Yeah, with ~50 men you can protect your entire deployment zone from deep striking. Of course the enemy could attempt to shoot holes into your lines using the units he has on the table. But I don't see myself playing Guard in 8th with less than 100 men, so you can easily afford some redundancy. And don't forget, deep striking happens in the in the movement phase, so you will have a full turn to move a backup unit into position if the enemy should manage to make a hole.

The only thing that deep striking units can do effectively is deploying in front of your lines. A solid line of Conscripts backed up by Commissars should be able to deal with that. And during your next shooting phase you can blow them away.

 

Jesus, I'll have to paint so many conscripts...

 

 

Onto another topic, do you see any use for meltaguns in 8th?

Even 12 melta veterans jumping out of a Valkyie into 6" melta range have less than 50% chance to kill a Land Raider in one round of shooting if my math is correct. And they probably won't get a second chance.

Melta seems to be a complete waste of points for Guard. At 12" overcharged Plasma is almost as good at killing tanks/monsters for significantly less points.

It seem meltaguns can only make their points back if you can fire them multiple times, and I'm not really sure how to make that happen with T3 5+ guys holding them. Maybe it's a different story for Space Marine Command Squads or Chaos Terminators, but how do you want to get Guardsmen with Meltaguns into 6" range without instantly getting vaporized next turn?

 

Let's do some math:

3 Lascannons team are exactly the same price as 4 Melta vets, 72 points.

vs T8 3+ the Lascannons do an average of 2.9 damage per shooting attack. The meltaguns do 4.7 at 12" and 6 at 6".

vs T7 3+ Lascannons do the same, Meltaguns do 6.2 and 8

This means, Meltaguns do a bit more than twice as much damage as Lascannons on average. The big question is, how many shooting attacks can you make with your meltaguns? Lascannons can sit 48" back and shoot the entire game. Meltaguns have to get really close. And I haven't even accounted the point cost for a transport to get them that close.

[Shamansky]

Looks like my Elysian mass melta drop unit is a history as you can't land in 6" with deepstrike anymore. And i hope they will keep their deepstrike and combat drop.

[gilt_imp]

Hmmm yes meltas seem less good now.

 

Only thing I thought of was a Tempestus Command Squad with 4 meltas, having a marginally better save than vets. Or 3 melta & 1 medic but not really sure stat wise how more survivable they will be.

[H311fi5h]

Looks like my Elysian mass melta drop unit is a history as you can't land in 6" with deepstrike anymore. And i hope they will keep their deepstrike and combat drop.

 

4 BS3+ plasma guns (overcharged) will do 5.9 damage vs T7 3+ at 12" range vs the meltaguns 6.2. That means plasma is 0.114 damage per point, melta 0.086 assuming you don't get within 6" (and even then plasma wins with 0.111 for melta). And of course plasma is way better against all other targets. I don't see any reason to take meltaguns over plasma for Elysian drop troops unless they have some trick up their sleeves we don't know about.

[WarriorFish]

This is probably the what appears to be standard "let's see about that then" approach GW has for 8th. Vehicles and transports galore? Not in 8th. Everyone takes melta? Not in 8th... Instead think of it as plasma getting an overdue boost especially now there's a "safe mode"

[gilt_imp]

Can the Voice of Command ability be used on Ogryns/Bullgryns/Ratlings?

 

In reading the voice of command it states orders may only be issued to infantry with the same regiment keyword.

 

Ogryns/Bullgryns/Ratlings have keywords: Imperium, Astra Militarum, Militarum Auxilia

 

And the Commanders (Company & Platoon) have keywords: Imperium, Astra Militarum, <Regiment>

 

I didn't think so but just wanted to check. It's not a huge thing if they don't, there are other options to buff these units.

[duz_]

Damn, you maybe right! (I dont have the rules, I'm waiting for next weekend).

 

There goes that idea. I and not sure if including a commissar with ogyrns would be worth it. They're relatively high leadership now and with such a low model count I dont think there'll be much benefit. Maybe a second psyker?

[gilt_imp]

Hmm I did have another idea…

Is it possible to make the Commander keyword <Regiment> into ‘Militarum Auxilia’?

 

I didn’t think so but in the <Regiment> section it gives an example, stating you cannot replace the <regiment> keyword with ‘Militarum Tempestus’ but you can use any of the other regiments you have read about, or make up your own.

Now I believe they intended ‘but you can use any of the other regiments you have read about’ to mean like other examples they gave ‘Vostroyan’, ‘Cadian’, or ‘Steel legion’ etc, but just wondered.

 

 

I started a small incomplete review called, Bullgryn Buffers

 

Priest

Zealot: Re-rolls failed hit rolls for the unit in the turn it charged, or was charged or did heroic intervention

War Hymns: Adds 1 attack to units within 6”

Rosarius: Has a 4+ save which is nice, compliments the Bullgryn invulnerable save too with shield

 

Best option to arm Priest? Eviscerator? Power Axe? Plasma gun? Combi-flamer?

 

 

More options to come like the Primaris Psyker, or cheaper Astropath.

[Brother Captain Ed]

A melta vet squad still may not be a bad idea. We just need to think differently.

 

Before, you dropped the melta into whatever the biggest scariest vehicle was and fished for pens. Now I think they're more of counter-punch weapon. Give the squad a HWT to throw shots down range all game, but have the melts ready for when the greater demon, nobz, terminators, LRC, whatever comes crashing in. When they hit the bubble wrap, you're standing there with the hard hitting meltas. Plasma is better in a vacuum, but there lots of things with pretty absurd threat ranges now and a weapons system that hits hard at short range may have a place if a significant number of engagements (or a number of significant engagements, even) take place at very short range.

[duz_]

Yes good point, I dont see melta going away.

However it may change from an tank hunting / in your face / assault weapon. It may more become a defensive weapon for when those high wound, high toughness models crash (or deep strike) your lines.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Hmm I did have another idea…

Is it possible to make the Commander keyword <Regiment> into ‘Militarum Auxilia’?

 

I didn’t think so but in the <Regiment> section it gives an example, stating you cannot replace the <regiment> keyword with ‘Militarum Tempestus’ but you can use any of the other regiments you have read about, or make up your own.

Now I believe they intended ‘but you can use any of the other regiments you have read about’ to mean like other examples they gave ‘Vostroyan’, ‘Cadian’, or ‘Steel legion’ etc, but just wondered.

 

 

I'm guessing that since it explicitly states you can't choose 'Militarum Tempestus' as a <regiment> that you likewise can't choose 'Militarum Auxilia' since that strictly speaking isn't a regiment.

 

So you can't give Auxilia units orders.

 

However, that doesn't stop commissars from giving a leadership buff to Ogryn since that works on any unit with Astra Militarum keyword and all the abhumans have that keyword.

[micahwc]

5 scions with 2 plasma and a plasma pistol is 66 points. Overcharged plasma in rapid fire range is roughly equivalent to melta outside of melta range. Slight advantage to the overcharged plasma at the cost of killing yourself 15% of the time. Tempestor primes can issue orders to scions allowing them to reroll 1s, so your plasma squad doesn't kill itself as easily.

 

So 5 scions, 2 plasma, plasma pistol + tempestor prime with plasma pistol = 111 points for 6 models that can deepstrike, fire at bs3+ and reroll 1's to hit with orders. 6 overcharged plasma shots. They average about 4.5 wounds to a rhino in 1 turn.  

 

Edit: I think if you are deep striking it's probably best to do it with melta scions over vets, as you get a better BS and they don't really cost that much more. If you are firing from a fire base than the las cannon team wins out. Put a company commander next to them so they can reroll 1's to hit to compensate for the low BS.

[DrLoveMonkey]

Did we ever get confirmation of Roughriders chainsword only works on subsequent turns, or if they get to use it on their first turn as well. By strictest reading of the rules I think they get to charge with their hunting lance as well as hit twice normally, once for the hooves and once with the chainsword.

 

"Each time thebearer fights" is the condition, and "may make one additional attack with this weapon" is the result, right?

[Brother Captain Ed]

Did we ever get confirmation of Roughriders chainsword only works on subsequent turns, or if they get to use it on their first turn as well. By strictest reading of the rules I think they get to charge with their hunting lance as well as hit twice normally, once for the hooves and once with the chainsword.

 

"Each time thebearer fights" is the condition, and "may make one additional attack with this weapon" is the result, right?

Right. If the model fights in melee, it gets an extra chainsword attack. Period.

[micahwc]

Perry miniatures has horse miniatures in our scale for about $1 per horse. Very tempted to pick up a few.