hopes, dreams, and fears for sisters in 8th

[Beams]

If you move them using the Act of Faith and then charge with them you will more than likely end up moving them away from their re-rolls and extra attack buffs if you use a priest.

 

Actually what unit in the Imperial Guard will ever want a priest? The War Hymn gives out +1 attack but there are no infantry units in the Guard I can think of that would actually ever want to go into melee.

Conscripts? Bullgryns/ogryns? Yarrick?

Seriously though, don't underestimate the weight of 100 melee attacks after shooting that conscripts could get. Plus, with 50 wounds (and probably a Commisars to stop battleshock) they'll stick around.

 

Also, we don't just get one act of faith.

With Celestine you have a pretty much guaranteed 2 per turn, and with an Imagifier or two, you can easily get that to an average of 3 a turn.

 

Also I dont see anything that says you replace an action, just that you gain an action.

 

So I'm literally going to get a ton of multimelta and heavy flamer sisters.

 

Big Guns Never Tire!

[Warsmith Aznable]

These new datasheet leaks were about what I was expecting. The only real exciting thing is that we're even still here.

[BitsHammer]

 

 

So Celestians did get one bit of utility added in when you look past their statline: they can intercept wounds given to characters. Using them to protect a Canoness actually makes sense now.

That is only really going to matter if your canoness is in combat though which is typically a faliure state for a Sisters of Battle army.

 

Hell the canoness is now just a walking re-roll generator now and with templates not being a thing you could just put a wall of battle sisters around her to block LoS to her.

Sniper protection though, since Snipers ignore the 12+" for targetting characters. Plus at less than 12" anyone wo can see her can shoot her, so taking Celestians as a cheap wound bank for her isn't a horrible idea.

 

That said, anyone else feel like we're being forced into a Vanguard detachment build?

[Beams]

I was expecting to go outrider, but yeah, It'll be absurdly easy to fill out a vanguard.

[taikishi]

Depends on how much you want to give up troops, fast, and heavy slots. If you want to pay the taxes for them, there's also:

 

* the Battalion (3-6 troops, 2-3 HQ, 0-6 Elites, 0-3 FA, 0-3 Heavy, +3CP)

* the Brigade (6-12 troops, 3-5 HQ, 3-8 Elites, 3-5 FA, 3-5 Heavy, +9CP)

[BitsHammer]

Yeah, Battalions might help us out as well. We just really need those Elite slots.

 

I don't get why Imagefiers couldn't have stayed as a Simulacrum option inside of the unit.

[taikishi]

Because GW? Because the people who supposedly play tested Sisters know nothing about the army?

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Because GW? Because the people who supposedly play tested Sisters know nothing about the army?

 

I don't know if it's that, or just an overarching new approach. The same appears to be happening to other armies, such as Space Marine apothecaries, standard bearers, and company champions all being single models on their own as well rather than members of a command squad.

 

I'm interested to try all of this new stuff out. I think it look pretty decent so far, but the real proof will be how everything comes together on the tabletop. It will require some rethinking of the game and every army I imagine.

[Commander Dawnstar]

I feel like it's a counterplay thing as it actually makes it possible for your enemy to focus on removing your bonuses rather than them lasting pretty much until the death of the unit. Keeping Simulcrums in units would make them all but auto-takes for most units and wouldn't have any real drawbacks beyond the built-in inconsistency - something you can address with Command Points if you really need to. Rather than having characters that need protecting and actually having to worry about positioning and aura placement to keep your options open you'd just have a passive bonus available until mounting casualties forced you to give it up.

 

That doesn't mean I strictly like the implementation - they really should be multiple models to a single Elites slot - but I do think there's a certain sense to this route.

[Gothical]

I feel like it's a counterplay thing as it actually makes it possible for your enemy to focus on removing your bonuses rather than them lasting pretty much until the death of the unit. Keeping Simulcrums in units would make them all but auto-takes for most units and wouldn't have any real drawbacks beyond the built-in inconsistency - something you can address with Command Points if you really need to. Rather than having characters that need protecting and actually having to worry about positioning and aura placement to keep your options open you'd just have a passive bonus available until mounting casualties forced you to give it up.

 

That doesn't mean I strictly like the implementation - they really should be multiple models to a single Elites slot - but I do think there's a certain sense to this route.

 

Yup, it would have been almost unfair if you could take a Simulacrum as a part of every unit, getting an additional Act of Faith on a 4+ given there are absolutely no penalties for failing the roll. By separating them, it has not only made it fairer for the opponent (can Snipe/target them if closest model) but also given Celestians more of a role - it is not just Canonesses that they can tank for. With Hospitallers and an Act of Faith, both of which can restore models to the unit, Celestians are great character bodyguards now.

[taikishi]

That may be, but according to a comment in the leak thread in the 8th edition section, Imagifiers are 80 points each. That means that in order to get any scaling with out AoF, you have to:

 

a. take Celestine at the very least to get a second -- which I find absurd because she shouldn't be a mandatory unit to make your army special rules function

b. take two Imagifiers per additional unit past the second (including Characters) to have a theoretical guarantee of one extra AoF per turn

c. burn two elite slots per Imagifier.

 

Even if you want to gamble, it's +80 points per unit and one elite slots. And let's say you increase to multiple detachments for a particularly large game. Guess what? Still one AoF per turn -- not per detachment -- with the same taxes each turn for more AoF.

[Servant of Dante]

I mean, I don't care how bad of a choice it is, I'll continue to throw my Canoness (with Evicerator) into combat. I imagine Raedia will promote some of Squad Dominus to Celestians, have her command Immolator refitted as a rhino, co-opt a member of the Delmarian Frateris Clergy, and go bash some heretics' heads in

 

Yeah, all in all I think this is a wash, if not an overall nerf to Sisters, but I'm still looking forward to playing with a new set of rules, and I don't hate the implementation of AoFs (I was afraid I would)

[asianavatar]

That may be, but according to a comment in the leak thread in the 8th edition section, Imagifiers are 80 points each. That means that in order to get any scaling with out AoF, you have to:

 

a. take Celestine at the very least to get a second -- which I find absurd because she shouldn't be a mandatory unit to make your army special rules function

b. take two Imagifiers per additional unit past the second (including Characters) to have a theoretical guarantee of one extra AoF per turn

c. burn two elite slots per Imagifier.

 

Even if you want to gamble, it's +80 points per unit and one elite slots. And let's say you increase to multiple detachments for a particularly large game. Guess what? Still one AoF per turn -- not per detachment -- with the same taxes each turn for more AoF.

 

I saw them at 40 pts each, but yeah you are correct, any "savings" we had for cheaper models is going to be eaten up by these. I guess you can build an army without worrying about faith and just count it as a bonus. But than why are we just playing crappier marines. Let's not even get into the exercise of keep these things close to the units you want to support, especially if that act that moves a unit is used. 

 

The act that lets you move and the one that let you shoot are great. The other ones are pretty crappy and most likely aren't going to be used much. I don't know if they are expecting sister's to be more combat focused. But it seems like it. 

[taikishi]

@Servant of Dante

 

That's where we differ, but I'm not a GW fanboy and I get a feeling a number of people on B&C would buy 8th edition if the box and rule book were turds in the literal sense of the word. Not saying you are, because I've seen some things GW's done that you disagree with (like equating Sisters to the Emperor's daemons) but the way a few people come across it's like GW can't do any wrong.

 

For my two zeni, I think the implementation is absolutely horrendous, especially given my post above about what it requires to make AoF viable in games above probably Deathwatch or SW:A points levels. Combine that with other complaints I have about the changes to the army and the rules...

 

Guess I'm waiting for fan-7th or 9th edition, because I had it confirmed with the rest of my play group that they won't play any edition other than 8th atm.

[Servant of Dante]

@Servant of Dante

 

That's where we differ, but I'm not a GW fanboy and I get a feeling a number of people on B&C would buy 8th edition if the box and rule book were turds in the literal sense of the word. Not saying you are, because I've seen some things GW's done that you disagree with (like equating Sisters to the Emperor's daemons) but the way a few people come across it's like GW can't do any wrong.

 

For my two zeni, I think the implementation is absolutely horrendous, especially given my post above about what it requires to make AoF viable in games above probably Deathwatch or SW:A points levels. Combine that with other complaints I have about the changes to the army and the rules...

 

Guess I'm waiting for fan-7th or 9th edition, because I had it confirmed with the rest of my play group that they won't play any edition other than 8th atm.

I mean, I don't think you're referring to me, but regardless, I'm hardly a GW fanboy. I'm a Sisters fanboy, and more specifically a Seraphim fanboy, but not a GW fanboy :P

 

I like the AoFs in general. I think the Simulacrums are poorly implemented, but it is what it is. As I keep saying, I don't care how good or bad we are in the meta, I'll keep playing Sisters.

 

As for the core rules, I actually like most of what GW is doing. It could turn out to be crap, I'll have to wait till I've got some games in, but I'm excited to try it.

 

I hope you find a version of the game to enjoy, it'd be a shame to lose someone who knows what the propper 40k army is :D but it sounds like you and your play group are already on the same page, so that's what matters. It's all about having fun.

 

Edit: just noticed that your post was in fact directed at me :D

[Gothical]

That may be, but according to a comment in the leak thread in the 8th edition section, Imagifiers are 80 points each. That means that in order to get any scaling with out AoF, you have to:

 

a. take Celestine at the very least to get a second -- which I find absurd because she shouldn't be a mandatory unit to make your army special rules function

b. take two Imagifiers per additional unit past the second (including Characters) to have a theoretical guarantee of one extra AoF per turn

c. burn two elite slots per Imagifier.

 

Even if you want to gamble, it's +80 points per unit and one elite slots. And let's say you increase to multiple detachments for a particularly large game. Guess what? Still one AoF per turn -- not per detachment -- with the same taxes each turn for more AoF.

 

It isn't the best system, but it is better than having hard limits (such as you can only use each Act once per game, like the SM Combat Doctrines were) or only getting D6 Acts for the whole game. I had also seen half the cost for Imagifiers, but I haven't seen the points costs since yesterday. If you don't spend your Command Points buying additional slots for extra Imagifiers, you can use those Command Points for re-rolls on the Imagifier if you really need to get multiple acts off, increasing their reliability - getting 3 or 4 Acts in a turn (depending on using Celestine) could really tip a battle given their power now - but you can't rely on using more than one (even then it is a bit dodgy, but a 2+ with a potential re-roll, or use a single Imagifier for a 2+ followed by a 4+, is pretty reliable). At least we can do something to increase the number of acts/chance of success if we feel it is worth investing in.

[A.T.]

I had also seen half the cost for Imagifiers, but I haven't seen the points costs since yesterday.

40pts per model, 50% activation rate.

 

So you need to weigh the value of their faith against 80 points worth of extra models - they are no benefit doubling up the firepower of a 79 point 5-girl melta squad for instance since you could just take a second 5-girl melta squad and gain the same firepower with extra bodies.

 

Best for doubling up larger units. Pity faith doesn't work on penitents, etc.

[taikishi]

It was directed at you to a point, but if there's one group I think isn't filled with fanboys for GW, it's this one. ;) So, no, I wasn't calling you a fanboy.

 

Unfortunately, that same page is they're playing 8th, my models collect dust. In that, I won't be having any fun :(

[Noeh]

If you just set yourself up with a Battalion FoC you should be fine. Even though our 5 girl squads in TL MM immolator went up a bit from before, the costs in the game as a whole seem to be pushing for larger point games taking the same time they do now. So a 2000 point game isn't unreasonable any more. But even sticking to 1500 or 1850, you should have plenty of points for 3 troops, enough elites to bolster them up, and whatever else you would bring normally. 

[Commisarp]

Don't know if you folks will find this helpful but I put together a cheat sheet for all the new units and points costs and upgrades because I find the way the new book is laid out very hard to see whats what.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1C7rMvw3I2SpBTQie8Lt7QhA246lqXFEAnm6mwPsUxnk/edit?usp=sharing

 

Also, I kept having to go through the rage-leak to get points.
 

[sedibear]

Honestly? These rules leave me even less enthused about 8th than before. There isn't a single piece of silver lining:

 

BSS max size cut

Loss of command squads

Non-scaling AoF

Shoehorned into a specific detachment in order to field enough elites to make AoF worthwhile (this one irks me more than anything else)

Heavy Flamer now Heavy

Even harder to Deny the Witch through SoF than before

Penitent Engines even more expensive

Eviscerators same cost as Marine eviscerators at lower Str

Acts of Faith themselves seem rather uninspiring outside of Divine Guidance

Massive cost increase for immolators (132 pts for TLMM)

 

I don't get the Heavy Flamer complaint, it auto-hits so it shouldn't be an issue?

[Noeh]

Also from Dakka:
"Via Facebook (IDK if said yet) 

"Warhammer 40,000 All models come with a standard weapon, and those are covered in the points cost of the base model.""

So the Repentia, Mistress, and Penitent Engines don't have to pay for their weapons by the looks.
And a 55 point Penitent Engine fits the power level they gave it.

[asianavatar]

Don't know if you folks will find this helpful but I put together a cheat sheet for all the new units and points costs and upgrades because I find the way the new book is laid out very hard to see whats what.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1C7rMvw3I2SpBTQie8Lt7QhA246lqXFEAnm6mwPsUxnk/edit?usp=sharing

 

Also, I kept having to go through the rage-leak to get points.

 

Very helpful. Thanks a lot

[Commisarp]

Also from Dakka:

"Via Facebook (IDK if said yet) 

"Warhammer 40,000 All models come with a standard weapon, and those are covered in the points cost of the base model.""

 

So the Repentia, Mistress, and Penitent Engines don't have to pay for their weapons by the looks.

 

This was my reading of the book also. (and how my spreadsheet works) The guy that did the initial text dump on Sisters just... was full of rage.

[Noeh]

 

Also from Dakka:

"Via Facebook (IDK if said yet) 

"Warhammer 40,000 All models come with a standard weapon, and those are covered in the points cost of the base model.""

 

So the Repentia, Mistress, and Penitent Engines don't have to pay for their weapons by the looks.

 

This was my reading of the book also. (and how my spreadsheet works) The guy that did the initial text dump on Sisters just... was full of rage.

 

 

Yeah a squad of Repentia was about to cost 390 for 10 otherwise..and that's just idioticly overcosted.