The Primaris Space Marines and the Space Wolves

[Valerian]

I am curious if the Grey Knights will get new marines as well. I found it interesting they were not mentioned along with the other "non-standard" Chapters.

 

They aren't mentioned, but no real reason for the Grey Knights not to get them.  We're discussing it over in the GK forum, by the way.  

 

That being said, from what we've seen so far of just the Tactical (Intercessor) Squad version, there isn't enough good there to make me want to take them over our other options.  They'd have to be dirt cheap in points cost to make them worthwhile.  2 Wounds and an improved Bolter is nice, but not nice enough to displace Storm Bolters, Nemesis Force Weapons, and Psychic Powers on every unit.

 

V

[Wolf Guard Dan]

The kits look really good. I am still waiting on the fluff to make a judgement. Much better proportions than any current marine kit. I may get some but it really depends on their points.  Getting my terminators on the board is going to be my focus in 8th. I hope TDAWG get the same weapon options and similar points. I can't wait to field combi-plasma/shield (1chainfist) TDAWG with the new profile.

 

The Jotunn statline isn't that impressive to me. I wouldn't field them as a bolt-rifle unit. I probably will wait to see the jump pack unit. That second wound and attack probably better in an assault-centric unit.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

last time some fool monkeyed with space marine gene-seed Bjorn said he's wreck it himself.

 

 

Now Im waiting for that cranky walking tower of primarch plasming death to start smashing Sigmarines

[Grimtooth]

Two points;

 

1. The data sheet is just a data sheet teaser which may or may not show what they can actually get (there is a pic floating around with them carrying plasma rifles as well). The data sheet could just as easily be the power points version or like I mentioned a teaser sheet for the blog.

 

2. The lore behind this is so craptastic that I cannot even begin to think about having any in one of my lists. It would have been wholly more acceptable if it was just 2.0 armor that the Mars nerd invented to give the stat boost and thus allow GW an out in upscaling the model line.

 

Because there is no logical explanation for keeping an outdated weapon system in use when you have a newer and better version already out saving decimated chapters and actually creating whole new chapters. And what could possibly be the explanation behind them not knowing any other weapon system then their Cawcaw pattern bolter?

 

I already mentioned this in another thread, but a decree will be passed that wolf priests will no law be extracting the geneseed from fallen brothers to make more of the same. Maybe it will be deemed useless or somehow it will be crucial to the creation of the 2.0 Marine creation. But the old "weapon" system is in its way out l, both from a business standpoint and a lore standpoint.

 

As for the models themselves, very nice looking with plenty of potential to be wolfed out if you want to go truscale look. The Wulfen weapons look large enough to fit the scale for close combat. But sadly out of all the excitement for 8th, this almost crushes it all since the likelihood of seeing them across the table will be high which in turn fees like it will just crush the setting for me

 

Off to 30k unless something drastically changes in the lore with this unit.

[Grimtooth]

Just realized that one of my points raised another;

 

If 2.0 Marines are just CawCaw pattern equipped, how the hell is RG raising up chapters of them? That indicates a whole chapter of all the unit types that RG would consider a chapter, logistically. So these are just the ice berg of a new weapon system rollout for the Imperium that will be the kiss of death for the "old" Marines.

[Filius]

Just realized that one of my points raised another;

 

If 2.0 Marines are just CawCaw pattern equipped, how the hell is RG raising up chapters of them? That indicates a whole chapter of all the unit types that RG would consider a chapter, logistically. So these are just the ice berg of a new weapon system rollout for the Imperium that will be the kiss of death for the "old" Marines.

 

Or he's just going to change the Codex Astartes … I mean … it's his frakkin' book … and the times are sure dire. He didn't come up with the Primaris just because he had a bad day. If you mess with you fathers gene-sees, you are certainly willing to rewirte your own book. At least: A new Edition every 10.000 years doens't seem too way off, even for the Roboute …

[Liege]

 

Just realized that one of my points raised another;

 

If 2.0 Marines are just CawCaw pattern equipped, how the hell is RG raising up chapters of them? That indicates a whole chapter of all the unit types that RG would consider a chapter, logistically. So these are just the ice berg of a new weapon system rollout for the Imperium that will be the kiss of death for the "old" Marines.

 

Or he's just going to change the Codex Astartes … I mean … it's his frakkin' book … and the times are sure dire. He didn't come up with the Primaris just because he had a bad day. If you mess with you fathers gene-sees, you are certainly willing to rewirte your own book. At least: A new Edition every 10.000 years doens't seem too way off, even for the Roboute …

 

Besides, when Russ comes back, if Guilliman has written a new Codex Astartes to cater for his abominations, Russ will just have to write a new Omega Codex on how to kill them! FENRYS HJOLDA!

[Sete]

This is just an assumption but dont expect grey hunter squads of primaris marines

 

Giving you the crusader squad as example:

 

Hey redacted,

Crusader Squads already have a defined structure, so not in those. You can certainly have Primaris Space Marines though. We can't very well launch a crusade without you guys, now can we?

 

They are their own thing and probably will follow the primaris codex or something.

[Runefyre]

This is just an assumption but dont expect grey hunter squads of primaris marines

 

Giving you the crusader squad as example:

 

Hey redacted,

Crusader Squads already have a defined structure, so not in those. You can certainly have Primaris Space Marines though. We can't very well launch a crusade without you guys, now can we?

 

They are their own thing and probably will follow the primaris codex or something.

But if a given Primaris squad is produced with their specific Primarch's geneseed (Rogal Dorn's in the case of Black Templars, Russ in the case of Space Wolves), wouldn't that automatically make them "Black Templars" and "Space Wolves"?

 

Even if they aren't organisationally arranged in the same manner (i.e. being mixed in with initiates, sword brethren, etc.), wouldn't they still just be a "tactical squad +1", because they're all from the same geneseed?

[Sete]

Organization wise they will be different than the main chapter tho.

 

So in fact we wont be running crusader squads or grey hunters which are iconic units of the chapter.

 

Its as if i play tactical squad with BT. Thats kinda defeats the purpose of playing BT. I could play any other chapter.

 

I will just be running tacticals with another name.

 

No initiate/neophyte in my case

if i want to run a pure primaris list.

 

In my opinion that takes away from the identity of the chapter regardless of the gene seed.

[Guest]

I have a hard time accepting these new marines. Some may say that they contain the blood of Leman Russ and that is enough to accept them. Blood is not what defines the Vlka Fenryka, our culture does. It's developed from our first breath of frigid air, hunting the wild creatures, hiding from the larger tribes, learning the ebb and flow of Mother Fenris's fire and ice seasons, falling in battle to be raised again as Vlka Fenryka, drinking from the Cup of the Wulfen, surviving the wilds during the Test of Morkai, learning the saga's. I can go on and on but, what do these "Primaris Marines" know of these things? They were raised in test tubs/breeding pods, subjugated to the indoctrination of the milk-drinking Ultramarines. 

 

Some say "Ah but Kaspar Hawser did not share our blood and became part of The Rout". That only proves my point further, he was a mere mortal man that accepted our ways he became part of us. These "Primaris Marines" are not us, they do not share our ways nor know our hardships. They may learn but they will always fall back to their indoctrination of the Ultramarines Primarch and their raising. They will never have that feral sense we Wolves share from being born and raised on Fenris. Again, blood does not dictate who we are. Do the Blood Angels not share the same blood as the Flesh Tearers, but the Blood Angels are not Flesh Tearers their cultures, their indoctrination, their ways are different.        

 

The Primaris Marines may look like us, talk like us, and even share our blood but they are Ultramarines at their core. They do not share our ways. I will refrain discussing on how Cawl managed to get our Geneseed and how he manipulated it like it was his play-thing.                 

Edited May 16, 2017 by Caldersson

[Wolf in the Shadows]

During HH terran members of the VIth would have adopted Fenrisian culture. The source of gene seed that has been used to create the new marines could be a cocktail of existing marine chapters and 'fix' some of the more destructive elements. Will be interesting to see how replacements are supplied and if their gene seed can be harvested and used to create marines using chapter techniques/traditions.

 

On a lighter note imagine the look on the thunder wolves face as the new primaris marines stroll towards them looking for a lift.

[Sete]

Yeah i doubt the new marines will get wolves to ride...

That was my previous point.

They will have a chapter tactics but no chapter specific units.

Maybe later on.

Edited May 16, 2017 by Sete

[Valerian]

Two points;

 

1. The data sheet is just a data sheet teaser which may or may not show what they can actually get (there is a pic floating around with them carrying plasma rifles as well). The data sheet could just as easily be the power points version or like I mentioned a teaser sheet for the blog.

 

 

I think it is the full data sheet, since they said in the article that this unit doesn't get any upgrade options.  "That said, like the Legions of the Great Crusade, they don’t have options for heavy or assault weapons within the squad,"

 

 

And what could possibly be the explanation behind them not knowing any other weapon system then their Cawcaw pattern bolter?

 

 

​The Intercessor squad is just the first reveal of what I'm sure will be many unit types that will be comprised of Primaris Marines, so I'm sure those Plasma Rifles we've seen pictures of will be an option for a different type of unit than this first reveal.  I'm also confident that they'll be getting a lot of nice new weapons, equipment, and vehicles to fully flesh them out.  They'll need enough "stuff" to be viable as inserts into an existing Chapter, and as a standalone army (to replicate the whole new Chapters of Primaris Marines on the tabletop).

 

 

This is just an assumption but dont expect grey hunter squads of primaris marines

 

 

I agree with your assessment; I don't think we'll see "our" units with Primaris Marines, but rather the new unique Primaris units (Intercessor being the first known) in Space Wolves colors, with Space Wolves geneseed, and with Space Wolves army-wide special rules.

 

I think one way to have addressed this differently within army lists would be an upgrade option within the data slates for our traditional units along the lines of:

 

"a player may upgrade all models from this unit to Primaris Marines for +7 points per model"  "Primaris Marines add +1 to the Wounds and Attacks characteristics, and come with the Bolt Rifle...."

 

However, that is in the old way of doing things, and doesn't fit in with the 8th edition's streamlined army lists.  So, it won't go down like this.

Edited May 16, 2017 by Valerian

[Grimtooth]

There has been another complaint brought up that these 2.0 Marines have not only pushed all Marines down a peg, but also iconic heroes from each faction. Defenders say they have not pushed the icons because it is only just a stat bump and weapon upgrade, which of course is correct. But we just don't have a <insert 2.0 Hero> yet! There will be a 2.0 named character that will marginalize all other heroes. We can probably expect that happening to Bjorn with the new dreadnought easily. That a normal 2.0 Marine will be interned in the best and newest chassis of dreadnoughts and exceed Bjorn by all means.

 

This isn't a moan and groan about 2.0 Marines being better, it is the horse crap that this is what the writers came up to update the model range. Like I said, Mars nerd could have just released Mark X armor and gene enhancement for existing Marines instead of basically making existing Marines obsolete

[Valerian]

There has been another complaint brought up that these 2.0 Marines have not only pushed all Marines down a peg, but also iconic heroes from each faction. Defenders say they have not pushed the icons because it is only just a stat bump and weapon upgrade, which of course is correct. But we just don't have a <insert 2.0 Hero> yet! There will be a 2.0 named character that will marginalize all other heroes. We can probably expect that happening to Bjorn with the new dreadnought easily. That a normal 2.0 Marine will be interned in the best and newest chassis of dreadnoughts and exceed Bjorn by all means.

It'll definitely be interesting to see what they do with Primaris Characters. They may or may not get named special characters yet, but they'll certainly need leadership in their new Primaris Chapters, so will get at least Captains and other officers.

 

I think the legendary heroes of the Adeptus Astartes (Logan, Ragnar, Bjorn and others for us, Dante, Sicarius, Belial, etc.) will be fine, though. The new Marines will be larger and hardier, but that still has to compete with thousands of years worth of battlefield experience, and the various auras and buffs that the legendary characters will grant their forces. So if Logan gets 6 Wounds and grants an extra Attack to all Space Wolves keyword units within 12" (for example), he'll still compare well against Captain NewGuy who gets 7 Wounds, but doesn't do as much for his nearby troops.

 

All remains to be seen, of course, but I wouldn't fret too much about it yet.

 

This isn't a moan and groan about 2.0 Marines being better, it is the horse crap that this is what the writers came up to update the model range. Like I said, Mars nerd could have just released Mark X armor and gene enhancement for existing Marines instead of basically making existing Marines obsolete

I'm with you; I'd have been completely cool with that approach. However, I'm guessing they had a few meetings at HQ about how to approach this big change. Maybe even put out feelers on how consumers would react. All the usual business approaches taken into account. For whatever reason, they felt that this new introduction strategy was going to work out better for them than the "we're rebooting the range" approach.

[krrenalor]

I hope we aren't given Primaris Marines, I want Leman Russ to return and lead our chapter. We will have Wulfen and Thunderwolves Cavalry and have the mobility other Space Marines lack. I recently watched a battle report that displayed brilliantly why Wulfen are so good. Dante and a squad of 5 Sanguinary Guard charged 4 Wulfen, at the end of combat there were 4 Wulfen and no one else! Yes, some lucky rolls were made but nothing greatly out of the ordinary as the two Wulfen with storm shields tanked the hits. What I want Games Workshop to do is fix close combat so it is the equal of shooting so we can use our strengths! We are not Ultramarines, we are the Space Wolves and I don't want to be light blue Ultramarines. 

[Filius]

Hmm … theres pretty much speculation around here already. Currently we only know very vew things about the fluff, and about our Chapter almost nothing certain. I can understand, that speculating is fun in itself. But I would like to very friendly and humbly remind to keep two things in mind …

 

1. Maybe they do come up with something cool, or at least something okay. There still is a chance they do.
2. And even if … even if we get unplausible fluff, fluff that we do not like … then take a few minutes and visit the Iron Hand Sub-Forum, read some threads regarding fluff, maybe about the Clan Raukaan Supplement.

[Yoyo ninja]

Val, remember when GW said they were changing all AoS bases to round ones, but it was OK to keep your existing minis on square bases if you didn't want to spend ages changing them. Yea, it was crazy. Now think about what would happen if people perceived that they would have to throw away their existing army and replace it with these new marines.

I think if they had just said, 'Yea, we are just rebooting the range, and in the fluff there will eventually be no old marines left, because all new marines made will be made with this new genetic upgrade and given this new armour. But it's totally OK if you want to keep using your old marines.' people would have become apoplectic and there would have been a nerd storm of galactic promotions. There would be armies being burnt in the streets, tables everywhere getting flipped and GW staff getting lynched!

Edited May 16, 2017 by Yoyo ninja

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

My take

 

The models are cool, I like the look of the new armor mark.

 

The rules are decent. Assuming all things are properly pointed I suspect they will fit in without pushing anything out of its role.

 

The fluff however missed the mark for me. I agree with Ramses and Val, they could have just made new armor and enhancements to normal marines, not created weird marines with no experience and dropping them into all the armies. This is, imho, the first screw up for 8th, which still looks good on the whole for me. ADV if your listening please fix the fluff with your skills.

[Graymane]

For some reason i have images of an 'order 66' moment happening. Orders given that old chapters may not like - Primaris marines are in place to 'ensure loyalty'.

A second heresy possibly?

RG, so disheartened with what the imperium has become goes for a clean slate. Imperium secundus Part 2.

With chaos rife, the galaxy divided and in flames, why not throw in a little more civil war?

I don't know. I'm just mighty suspicious.

Something doesn't smell right.

 

GM

[MosesGunn]

For some reason i have images of an 'order 66' moment happening. Orders given that old chapters may not like - Primaris marines are in place to 'ensure loyalty'.

A second heresy possibly?

RG, so disheartened with what the imperium has become goes for a clean slate. Imperium secundus Part 2.

With chaos rife, the galaxy divided and in flames, why not throw in a little more civil war?

I don't know. I'm just mighty suspicious.

Something doesn't smell right.

 

GM

 

Out of all the returning Primarchs, I could well see Leman voicing disapproval with Roboute and Cawl's Marines 2.0 scheme, he did spit on the Codex after all. A scenario that would be extremely interesting would be the more individualistic Primarchs, such as Lion El and Jagathai rejecting Guilliman's leadership causing another schism. And just imagine a triumvirate box of the Wolf, the Lion and the Khan!

 

Given that the new status quo appears to be the Imperium vs Chaos, I highly doubt that the writers have a desire to create such a complex and interesting Imperial divide. 

Edited May 16, 2017 by MosesGunn

[Grimtooth]

As a battle-scarred old warrior, I won't trust anything coming from the likes of a abberation more machine than man OR another who was brought back to life by the maleficarum of a xenos witch!

 

As a consumer/gamer, this is a very, very hard hit to what had been non-stop joy with the 8th releases we have seen.

[Valerian]

Still on topic, I think, but switching the focus up a bit ---- who here is planning on getting Primaris Marines?  Several of you have voiced concerns about how they'd be received by the Space Wolves background-wise, but who is excited about the new releases?

 

So, to start off, I love the look of the first models that we've seen so far.  I'm not blown away by the "crunch" of the Intercessor Squad, but love how it looks, and have high hopes for the rest of the Primaris range.  That being said, I don't really see trying to fit them into my Space Wolves army.  I've got over 4,000 points worth of painted Wolves, and already have more units than I would ever get a chance to play all together as it is.  In fact, I swore off adding new units to my Space Wolves years ago, and never even bothered to add TWC or Wulfen, so I just can't see adding additional units of anything.

 

If the rest of the Primaris range looks as good, and especially the new Primaris Redemptor Dreadnought and other vehicle choices, I could definitely see me just starting a whole new army.  Not that I need a third Space Marine army (also already have several thousand Grey Knights); I could definitely see me starting one, anyway.

 

So, what about the rest of you lot?

 

V

[Garreck]

Unless we're told there's a legitimate reason the space wolves won't/can't run them, sign me up for a few boxes. Heck even if the fluff tells me the space wolves won't/can't run them, I can just "counts-as."  They look good enough to justify that to me.

 

I may hold off initially.  I'm standing by the theory that there will be chapter specific roll-outs.  But I think they look terrific, and while I agree that the roll-out could've been done without ham-fisting the fluff...GW has a long precedent of ham-fisting the fluff and I've never let it ruin my enjoyment of a new model or new rules.