The Primaris Space Marines and the Space Wolves

[Grimtooth]

What the heck!? Why are you all so whiny now! Get yourself together!

You sound like the Sons of the Lion, sitting in the corner, crying about not knowing which Wing to put these newcomers under!

 

Who are we?

The Vlka Fenryka, the Space Wolves, the Sons of Russ, the Chosen Warriors of the Allfather!

 

Did we give a flying , when the Thunderwolf Cavalry joined our ranks?

NO! - Some integrated them, some ignored them, some embraced them, others found ways to use their rules in other ways and built counts-as!

 

Did we stop when Murderfang, a brother far beyond saving, was awoken from his icy slumber?

NO, never! Some let him run rampant, some put him back to sleep, SOME *cough* put him into an -IMPROVED- Dreadknight, for Russ' sake!

 

Did we stop when we found the Stormwolf/Stormfang in our armies!?

NO, we didn't! Some integrated them, some ignored them, some embraced them, others converted them or used other flyers with their rules!

 

Did we stop when the new Wulfen were saved by our Great Companies?

NO, we didn't! Some took them in, others ignored them, some gave them remnants of Power Armor or even Terminator Armor!

 

 

WHY?

BECAUSE WE DO WHAT WE WANT, HOWEVER WE WANT!

The Sky is -NOT- falling - and even if it did, we would be the first to learn how to live, hunt and fight in a skyless world!

 

We don't even know much fluff about them, so calm yourselves... and even IF it turns out bad or unacceptable, or if we just don't get much of an explanation - we WILL FIND A WAY!

And we don't even know all of their units, nor their rules or uses! Maybe they will be the perfect Anvil to our Hammer, maybe they will be good to keep our backs free, maybe we just steal their flyer for a better Assault tactic!? We don't know! We have to wait and see...

 

 

AND: We're already on our way to adapting them to our needs and likings!

Maverick has already named them "Jotunn", which is a fantastic idea!

Strangers who have our genes and our blood, who fight at our sides and under our banner - but who have to prove that they are worthy enough to share our name!

 

You could also use them as your Companies' absolute best Wolf Guard, kitted out in the newest equipment.

Or you give them some battle-damage, mix in some armor marks and make them 13th Company Veterans, bulked out because of their transformation, in make-do, salvaged armors, stepping right out of the Warp to join your Company!

Or whatever you want to do with them, heretics be damned! Because each and every one of us will find his personal, individual way to deal with them! Because that's what we always do, always have done and always will do!

This isn't a beat your chest with your fist moment while yelling, "For Russ!" This is crap fluff to upscale the models while making the existing model line look like :cuss. And let me be clear, I would have easily dropped another couple grand in a new army completely comprised of the new models to make a new SW army if GW just came out and said we are updating the line. I did this with my old Deathwing army and with all my Wolf Guard in TDA. I like new models, but dropping a deuce on the lore sure as hell won't get me to buy them.

 

But that is only part of it. Aestheticly they have broken the setting since now we have old Astartes looking like Guardsmen in comparison, which is going to look even worse since the Chaos releases are apparently on par with the Primaris Marines size from what we have seen from the Thousand Sons and Deathguard. And the Chaos SM didn't even need some stupid plot twist to explain the new sizes, they just released them, which should have been done with all SM.

 

So I don't need to wait to see the fluff or rules on this lore abortion known as Primaris Marines. They are going I look like crap on the board in every instance that you have regular SM and as they slow release the other models and or vehicles the old Marines will continue to look out of place and just ridiculous in comparison. Not to mention when your old Marines assault the larger scale Chaos Marines and look absurdly out of place. Every game is going to look like SM are having a "bring your kid to work day".

 

No thanks.

[Garreck]

Ramses, I'm not trying to tell you what to like or not like, but your principle beef seems to be cleanly addressed by just upgrading your whole army...which you indicated you were willing to do anyway.

[MaveriK]

If this is a subtle way of replacing the range to a slightly bigger SM, then they will also need to explain why Rhinos, Land Raiders and other vehicles need to be tweaked to be more to scale... Will it happen? Would be nice but it would cause many problems for long term hobbyist.

 

Anyway, the way I look at this is, if these 2.0 marines are ultras trained. Remember, any good soldier knows how to adapt to survive, just like the terrans during the great crusade. Everybody just needs to chill. If the fluff sucks. Who's to say your own personal fluff can be better? Just keep an open mind. I'd rather have something new than take it for granted.

 

Regardless, there will be a use for them in some for or another. I just look forward to reading a novel about them because only then can we grow into the idea of them. Give it time. Some of us may be grey hunters in mind and spirit, but the blood claw in us tends to come out faster than a wisdom of a long fang.

[Grimtooth]

Ramses, I'm not trying to tell you what to like or not like, but your principle beef seems to be cleanly addressed by just upgrading your whole army...which you indicated you were willing to do anyway.

Because I still have to look across the board at them in someone else's army unless you are advocating that I force others to also replace their armies. That is not my job, that is GW's.

We went from;

Primarch>Space Marine>Human

to

Primarch>Space Marine 2.0>Space Marine>Human.

And visually, it will look like crap even if we dismiss the lore issues.

[Garreck]

Fair play...and that's pretty funny right there.  And I think I get it.  It's not much different than the better enjoyment I get when I play a fully painted army versus someone's latest ebay special.

 

I do feel that the Space Wolves will be pragmatic here.  I would expect certain personalities to speak out openly against the newboys.  I would also expect that cooler heads prevail and a firm reminder from leadership to the chapter that we serve the all father before our own pride.  I would also fully expect brutal hazing and re-indoctrination at the hands of wolf priests.

[Valerian]

If this is a subtle way of replacing the range to a slightly bigger SM, then they will also need to explain why Rhinos, Land Raiders and other vehicles need to be tweaked to be more to scale... Will it happen? Would be nice but it would cause many problems for long term hobbyist.

 

 

Well, we do know that there will be some new Primaris vehicles being released, too, so the old line of vehicles might not be an issue in the future.

[Garreck]

"Primaris" does seem an unneccessary abstraction.  The writing is on the wall...they're refreshing the line-up* (vehicles included).  They're just really going out of their way to avoid directly stating as much.  The minute they openly acknowledge that, they cut off a revenue stream.  So they make it seem like an "additional" line, hence the "Primaris" moniker.  But I really believe Primaris will be the status quo in the future.

 

 

 

*I'll be sure to admit I was wrong if this turns out not to be the case

[Valerian]

I'm just hoping all of the new Primaris vehicles are actually innovative designs, and not just bigger Rhinos, bigger Land Raiders, etc.  Give me the stuff you'd develop if Space Marines truly were a brand new faction that we'd never seen before.  Here's your chance, you've got a clean slate; don't mess it up.

[Grimtooth]

I'm just hoping all of the new Primaris vehicles are actually innovative designs, and not just bigger Rhinos, bigger Land Raiders, etc. Give me the stuff you'd develop if Space Marines truly were a brand new faction that we'd never seen before. Here's your chance, you've got a clean slate; don't mess it up.

I agree but I also recognize that most gaming tables are 4x8 at the most. Much larger vehicles mean a larger footprint on the board. So I expect more of the same space saving square vehicles, just large enough that will then be highly criticized since it will appear that a full squad of 10 Primaris would not fit in them.

[MaveriK]

I'm just hoping all of the new Primaris vehicles are actually innovative designs, and not just bigger Rhinos, bigger Land Raiders, etc.  Give me the stuff you'd develop if Space Marines truly were a brand new faction that we'd never seen before.  Here's your chance, you've got a clean slate; don't mess it up.

I agree also. It always bothered me that the actual drop pod couldn't fit the actual amount of marines on the tabletop, as with rhinos and land raiders....

[Wispy]

Yeah I'm adding Primaris.

[Filius]

I'd like to advise to you a Post of VengefulJan in the Major-Primaris Thread. He argues – and very well imho – that the Primaris Marines are not going to replace the Main Marines, but are just the Starter-Kit-Marines: You need less. You have less options. They are a bit scarier on the Table, but simpler to play and simpler to paint, and yes … they look better than the old Marines. But the Moment "simple" is not enought for you anymore – so he argues – you get to buy the regular, old Marines …

 

But as I stated in my original Post - imho that's okay. The Wolves have always been looking old. Being the old Guys is part of their unique Identity.

 

And by the way: Didn't the Centurions make the Terminators and the regular Marines and even the Dreadnoughts look old?

Edited May 18, 2017 by Filius

[Filius]

I was just thinking – as a offer of peace among the wolves: I can imagine (more pure Speculation here), that Logan Grimnar leaves it up to the individual Wolf Lords, wether or not to integrate Primaris Marines in the Great Companies. That would allow for a lot of Boasting and Brawling within the Wolves from a Story Telling Perspective, and the Players can decide themselves which way they go …

[Hellrender]

if it was meant as a true replacement, they could have had the fluff easily describe it as wargear upgrades, and slowly phase out old wargear/models.

But, as can be seen in the N&A section of B&C, is that a lot of people were hating on that.

 

Now i don't think for any second at all, that GW changed their approach based on the responses to the leaked marine 2.0 pics, but they are clearly going for a different approach. One that does not necessarily outdate older models. They are living as an entity next to it. How else are you going to explain that fluff wise, than what they are doing now?

 

If they had gone the first option, they would have been damned by the community, for making existing models irrelevant. If they do they the 2nd option, as they are, then they are damned for messing with the lore too much...

 

But one thing i do know. I'm happy with the new models. They look good, and i far rather have an evolving plot line, even if it aint perfect, rather than a stagnating model line. I will most definetly be making a squad or 2 at one point, in Space Wolves colours. Dealing with it fluffwise, i don't know yet, but will make it work somehow :P

[Filius]

if it was meant as a true replacement, they could have had the fluff easily describe it as wargear upgrades, and slowly phase out old wargear/models.

But, as can be seen in the N&A section of B&C, is that a lot of people were hating on that.

 

Now i don't think for any second at all, that GW changed their approach based on the responses to the leaked marine 2.0 pics, but they are clearly going for a different approach. One that does not necessarily outdate older models. They are living as an entity next to it. How else are you going to explain that fluff wise, than what they are doing now?

 

If they had gone the first option, they would have been damned by the community, for making existing models irrelevant. If they do they the 2nd option, as they are, then they are damned for messing with the lore too much...

 

But one thing i do know. I'm happy with the new models. They look good, and i far rather have an evolving plot line, even if it aint perfect, rather than a stagnating model line. I will most definetly be making a squad or 2 at one point, in Space Wolves colours. Dealing with it fluffwise, i don't know yet, but will make it work somehow

 

That's a brilliant observation, Hellrender, thank you! The little bits of Fluff they have released on the Primaris Marines simply doesn't fit with a complete replacement of the old Marines.

[sturguard]

I would be willing to bet that after this year (as there might be stuff they want to roll out) you won't see anything for the old scale marines unless it is forgeworld for 30k. GW doesnt mean for two types of marines to be available forever. I don't like it but I realize what is happening. Eventually there will be just one type of marine being sold. Again it all comes down to GW knowing their market (its laughable that we make excuses for them and pretend like they do things on accident- like the Shadow War box sets selling out so quick and folks having to buy the individual box sets that cost more collectively). From a stats perspective the Primas marines arent that hugely impressive. An extra wound, a bit extra range on the boltrifles. Clearly not enough that would make you run out and buy a box if you were making a competitive list. Yet, how many folks have already said they would be buying the models. The Space Marine is an iconic figure for 40k and has been GW's cash cow for years. Now, let's say you are trying to really increase your profits, what's the easiest way to make money.... reboot all the Space Marine models. Sure, they will keep selling the stock of what they have for Land Raiders, Rhinos, Dreads etc- but gradually no more will be produced. If you enter the hobby in 5 years you will probably not know anything but NuMarine 2.0. Please don't take it personally but to think otherwise is folly. I understand GW has made some moves of late that seem to redefine them, but actually this is all cyclical. GW used to be more involved with their player base, they used to attend tournaments and have outsiders play test their games. Many of the rules we are seeing stem from 2nd or 3rd edition rules- they aren't reinventing the wheel. It may seem that way to alot of folks because in order for us to remember this, we have to be 47 years old or so (like I am). If you are in your thirties, you probably started with 4th or 5th edition and have no recollection of these events. 

 

Ultimately the game and company is going to go where it goes, none of us have any control over that. If I was just getting into the hobby I would probably get NuMarine 2.0, but as I have said at this juncture and my age, I have no need for him or any of the other vehicles etc to come. I have 3 dreads already, plenty of rhinos. predators etc I dont need a bigger/cooler version, as long as I have the rules I can always play my existing army with the updated stats.

 

Filius as far as us getting alot of attention model wise, that isn't a surprise, GW knows SW models sell. They didn't make a dreadnought or thunderwolf cav for us as a favor, they did it to help pay their employees. Several of the vocal players around here in fact despise the thunderwolf cav being introduced to the model line as the Grey Hunter should be the backbone of the SW army. However, as I keep saying, rule of cool (in this case, how a model looks and play on the game board) wins all the time over fluff.

 

Unfortunately with the SW fluff, which many of us love, there really isn't alot to like with the induction of the new marines. I would guess it might be cooler if we played Ultras.. I personally wouldnt think SW would be the type to take any help from outsiders even given the recent fluff changes and near destruction of their system. In fact I would argue they would take offence to it or take it as a challenge to out perform any of these new marines....

 

and there you have it, the fluff for using the old marines with new rules. The existing SW pushed themselves, trained themselves to be even more exceptional than they are.

[Garreck]

 

That's a brilliant observation, Hellrender, thank you! The little bits of Fluff they have released on the Primaris Marines simply doesn't fit with a complete replacement of the old Marines.

 

The little bits of fluff released talk about replacing entirely dead chapters with these guys.  And think about the trajectory of some of the existing chapters, including our own.  Entire companies lost, unknown numbers falling to the curse.  I say the fluff entirely supports an eventual phase-out.  They've laid the foundation for what these guys are supposed to do (replace lost chapters or companies) and they've got a couple of major chapters on a downward trajectory.

 

The contrived story is so that they can eventually replace the entire line without saying *right now* that's what they're doing (mitigating fanbase blow-back.)  And if they want to keep the Space Wolves and Blood Angels around (I'm sure they do) they'll do it over a long enough timeline to explain how the new ranks are able to be successfully indoctrinated into the more unique chapter cultures.

 

I'm genuinely okay with this!  I just am dead certain that's what's happening.  And me *personally* I feel like they could've just said "here's a new armor mark, everybody gets 'em" and be done with it, but some beancounter probably came up with a compelling financial story about why they should introduce the new line-up while telling the fanbase they can still choose.  Over time they'll fill in the new line and deprecate the old line.

[Hellrender]

As i said before.. If you followed the rumour thread before the primaris was officialy announced you could see how many people were dead set against just upgrading the armour.

 

So.. Gw in this case is dammed if they do damned if they dont.

 

I dont mind it either way. All gw does for me is provide miniatures and a vague background to set my own narratives.

[sturguard]

Yeah but what people said in a thread on this board or the next is really irrelevant. We represent such a small minority of the actual gaming population it doesn't matter. GW more or less knows what will sell and how to sell it at this point.

[TheDuck]

If I were to hazard a guy at what could happen, I'd say that we reject these new marines but, on the brink of our annihilation due to loss of numbers, Leman Russ will emerge from the Warp with an army of his greatest wolf guard (Warp shenanigans and all that, may have only been a few hundred years for Russ and his boys) at his back, now further emboldened by centuries of constant war with Legions of Daemons, who will now become our new troop choice (Thinking Super Longfangs maybe?). It's hardly a certainty, but it's what I'd see as the ideal outcome.

[Grey Mage]

Maybe they just want a bite of the truescale market and this is about as far as ots going to go.

[Triszin]

made this quickly so we can see how big these guys actually are.

 

since they said the heads and shoulder pads were the same

 

http://i.imgur.com/Y5A2qrl.jpg

 

What is a primaris space marine?
new generation of space marines. Blended primarch, custodes, and space marine geneseed. Bigger more powerful, but more specialized when compared to tactical squads. The entire primaris squad is all trained in the weapons.

Ultimate Founding...
New Primaris Marine Chapters! + they will be other existing Space Marine Chapters. Even existing Space Marines can be adapted and made into Primaris Space Marines.

What is Mark X Armor and what happened to Mark VIIII?

 

 

Mark X of Armor is new but didnt give a lot of information about it.
 

Mark VIIII is a mystery

 

SO I now expect triumvirate style boxes that update the characters into Primaris marines

 

so no marine is left behind, they all can become Greater, how? looks like The emps gave a bit of knowledge on custodes and how to integrate some costode Biology into marines!!

Edited May 18, 2017 by Triszin

[Wispy]

"Even existing Space Marines can be adapted and made into Primaris Space Marines."

 

if you were wondering who was leading these new space marines... old space marines.

 

i can think of a few characters i'd love to see at Primaris scale in new armour.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Wispy

[Grimtooth]

Chalk another point up towards this fluff just being a veiled upscale of the model range since now old Marines can be Primarisized. Which just makes the remark from GW that these new Marines would be more specialized than Tactical Marines moot since now apparently anyone can get the modifications.

 

Just get it the hell over and done with GW! Give us the new model range and we will just buy them!

[Valerian]

 

What is a primaris space marine?

new generation of space marines. Blended primarch, custodes, and space marine geneseed. Bigger more powerful, but more specialized when compared to tactical squads. The entire primaris squad is all trained in the weapons.

 

Ultimate Founding...

New Primaris Marine Chapters! + they will be other existing Space Marine Chapters. Even existing Space Marines can be adapted and made into Primaris Space Marines.

 

What is Mark X Armor and what happened to Mark VIIII?

 

 

Mark X of Armor is new but didnt give a lot of information about it.

 

Mark VIIII is a mystery

 

 

Where'd this come from?