Primaris and the Black Templars

[Marshal_von_Speer]

Hi everyone!

 

After slowly accepting the fact, that Primaris are here to stay and that they will probably replace the standard marine in the long run, I would like to discuss how you think the new addition will affect the Black Templars in the following respects:

fluff-, gameplay- and modellingwise.

 

I'm also interested in your general opinion concerning the above mentioned aspects.

 

As a base for discussion I have added the statline of the standard and the primaris marine as well as the direct size comparison:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

                                                                                                              +++

 

For a start, I would like to voice my general opinion concerning the introduction of the Primaris Marines. For me it is rather obvious that the introduction of the NuMarines ist a straightforward business manoeuvre by GW. As a profit-oriented company it is their good right to do so, but I don't have to like it. I am not generally against the addition of new stuff to the hobby it's more the way how it's done, that annoys me.

 

First off it's once more the Space Marines that get the new stuff and on top of that everything is again centered around the Ultramarines. GW has missed a great opportunity to cater to some of the less prominent armies like Nids or Orks. That would've also been a great chance to do a little something against the Space Marine overweight in the hobby. 

 

The one thing that bothers me the most is the fluff. After roughly 20 years of not moving the setting an inch they do so in a rushed, bland and unthoughtthrough manner.  Some weird Techboi appears almost out of nowhere, sides with Eldar, revives Gulliman and then they quickly pull some thousands of Superelite-Astartes out of their buttocks all while chased by the almost entire 13th black crusade. And the best part is, that the alleged BT Marshal just stands idle while the imperium sides with xenos (Eldar) and traitors (Cypher). I mean seriously, that's just unworthy for a setting like 40k, that was or is originally known for it's twisted grimdarkness.

 

Nevertheless, I really like the new models apart from the silly  hoovermarines. The captain also looks cool, except that weird hood his armour has.

 

Now to the three points I stated initially:

 

1. Fluff: I can't imagine a proper BT Crusade to be very happy about Gulliman acting all Emperor and messing around with the Emperors creation. The reek of HERESY ist just too strong on all this.
    
2. Gameplay: Here it all comes down to points cost and equipement options. On paper the Primaris are flat out better than their standard counterpart. Although I think the Primaris are generally in a weird spot having powerful long range bolters yet having two wounds and attacks. I tend to field my squads specialized for a certain task. In regard to the Primaris that means, that I either waste their powerful longrange potential because I wan't to make use of their cc-advantage or the other way around.
    
3. Modelling: I don't know how they relate to the sigmarines in matters of size, but I can imagine some nice conversion options there.

 

 

Well that's it from my part. Really looking forward to your opinions!

 

 

Edit: Gravis Captain Statline added

Edited May 27, 2017 by Marshal_von_Speer

[Brother Christopher]

There has been a discussion of the New Marines in the 8th Edition...what does it mean for the Templars? thread. Regarding the rules, I'm holding back till we see the difference in points/power and rules for our Crusade Squads specifically.

 

Regarding fluff and modelling, I'll summarise my thoughts: the backstory seems forced and after some consideration I do not like the models.

 

Although I hate the justification, I won't say that the fluff is dreadful because I feel I'm bias (I simply do not like such large, but also 'unfair' -- think about Nids, Orks, SoB, 'vanilla' CSM -- steps) and, thus, I'm in no place to pass such strong judgements.

 

I'm also not a fan of the new aesthetic of the models, especially the knee pads and pointless additional armour. The Assault variant is ridiculous. What I love are the bolters (though, the placement of the RIS makes little sense). The lack of chainswords is a deal-breaker for the time. I'm not adding any to my army, at least until they will be better-established. I have so many Squat Marines to assemble and paint without new additions.

[Honda]

For a start, I would like to voice my general opinion concerning the introduction of the Primaris Marines. For me it is rather obvious that the introduction of the NuMarines ist a straightforward business manoeuvre by GW. As a profit-oriented company it is their good right to do so, but I don't have to like it. I am not generally against the addition of new stuff to the hobby it's more the way how it's done, that annoys me.

 

 

I think some consideration has to be given to the fact that in order to grow, GW had to do something different. There's a phrase out there that I first heard about from one of Jervis articles. That phrase is "Murder your darlings". This happens with software all the time, it's how the software improves, grows, and accomplishes more. GW seems to have embraced the concept throughout their organization and in how they do business.

 

Is business also driving this change? Absolutely. Do keep in mind as the CEO/President of a company, the board is interested in profit. That's why they are there. They hire a CEO/President because they have performance expectations and if expectations are not met, they find someone else.

 

Now there are lots of different ways to go about making a company profitable and keeping your shareholders and stakeholders happy.

 

One way is to squeeze every penny out of operational costs, tighten things down until the organization screams, and don't spend a dime/pound. We saw that sort of leadership in the previous version of the CEO and outside of a few stockholders, not a lot of people were happy with how things were going, especially us the players of games.

 

Now the other way to grow (i.e. keep your job) is to do something different. In GWs case, they decided to stop trying to build on the old foundation they had created and start over. When you do that, you get rid of all the old baggage you inherited from previous versions of your product. In software, you should consider a complete rewrite around every 5 years, certainly by 7 and by 10 years gone, you are preparing for a death spiral.

 

So how long has it been since 40K went through a complete revamp of game mechanics? 3rd edition? That was a long time ago.

 

Therefore, in order to shake things up, something drastic had to happen.

 

When a company does something like this, not everyone will approve. That's just the nature of people. Not everyone agrees with you when you do something, even if it's something really important to you (i.e. GW).

 

That being said, GW is doing an extraordinary job of engaging their customers and trying to soften the blow. 5-7 years ago, I doubt you would have found this level of engagement.

 

Like it or not, one should consider appreciating the effort GW has put into helping people through this change. They should also be given credit for realizing that they really messed up the Age of Sigmar (AoS) rollout and have learned from that lesson.

 

 

First off it's once more the Space Marines that get the new stuff and on top of that everything is again centered around the Ultramarines. GW has missed a great opportunity to cater to some of the less prominent armies like Nids or Orks. That would've also been a great chance to do a little something against the Space Marine overweight in the hobby. 

 

 

Yes, Space Marines are their "flagship" race, the faction that sells more models than the others, the faction that is most likely going to stack the odds on their side when associated with something significant related to change. AoS didn't have that going for them and had to build that identity from the ground up and that caused issues.

 

But Space Marines ore very iconic, when someone thinks of 40K, usually the first thing that comes to their mind is the Space Marines. Not Orks, not Elves, not bugs, or metal skeletons. It is the universe.

 

Again, tying this to some of the comments above, there are business reasons why SM were picked. Those that evaluate business decisions are going to want to know why the most profit potential faction wasn't used for the signature launch of a product?

 

Because this is something you have to take into consideration. Could a rollout have worked with Eldar? Maybe. Tau? Possible. Orks?

 

Here's the thing, GW has invested a lot of upfront $'s into this effort. What if it failed? What if it failed because you didn't stack all the chips in your favor from the start?

 

That could lead to some very uncomfortable discussions with the board., "So, you chose not  to use the faction that represents 50% of your sales because...?"

 

So it's all connected and the decisions aren't random. I don't think it's an accident that the two factions in the box set are 1) The Defenders of Humnaity, and 2) Stinky cans of slime. Those are perfect nemesis forces and something that people not familiar with 40K could understand.

 

 

The one thing that bothers me the most is the fluff. After roughly 20 years of not moving the setting an inch they do so in a rushed, bland and unthoughtthrough manner.  Some weird Techboi appears almost out of nowhere, sides with Eldar, revives Gulliman and then they quickly pull some thousands of Superelite-Astartes out of their buttocks all while chased by the almost entire 13th black crusade. And the best part is, that the alleged BT Marshal just stands idle while the imperium sides with xenos (Eldar) and traitors (Cypher). I mean seriously, that's just unworthy for a setting like 40k, that was or is originally known for it's twisted grimdarkness.

 

 

This is a drastic change. Some people are going to like it or be neutral (me) others won't. After decades of screaming at GW to "ADVANCE THE FRICKING STORY", now they have and some people don't like now they did it.

 

You can't please everyone. You can attempt to ease as many people through the change as you can by helping them. That is what GW has done. One of my responsibilities in the Real World is change management. Looking at their efforts from a purely professional perspective, they've done a pretty impressive job so far.

 

Nevertheless, I really like the new models apart from the silly  hoovermarines. The captain also looks cool, except that weird hood his armour has.

 

 

I like them as well and am reserving opinion on the jet pack dudes. I may end up liking them later, but they didn't really impress me like the others.

 

Now to the three points I stated initially:

 

1. Fluff: I can't imagine a proper BT Crusade to be very happy about Gulliman acting all Emperor and messing around with the Emperors creation. The reek of HERESY ist just too strong on all this.

    

There are many reasons why the BT might not accept the Primaris. However, I think the BT are also pragmatic enough to recognize that after the Imperium has been saved, there will be plenty of time to settle the score, should that be required.

 

For better or worse, it is the fluff written to develop the story.

 

Right now, my intention is to add units of the Primaris, but paint them up as UM or IF. The idea being that they are not part of my Crusade, they are add ons, much like some of the fluff indicates.

 

1. Gameplay: Here it all comes down to points cost and equipement options. On paper the Primaris are flat out better than their standard counterpart. Although I think the Primaris are generally in a weird spot having powerful long range bolters yet having two wounds and attacks. I tend to field my squads specialized for a certain task. In regard to the Primaris that means, that I either waste their powerful longrange potential because I wan't to make use of their cc-advantage or the other way around.

    

I think it's too early to pass judgement on anything right now. We don't have all the rules, so we don't know exactly how things behave. It seems to me that these guys are better tacticals, therefore they are better all-rounders.

 

Modelling: I don't know how they relate to the sigmarines in matters of size, but I can imagine some nice conversion options there.

 

 

Yes, I think there will be a lot of potential for modeling if they are multi-part. I've read a few things that have hinted at snap fit. I don't mind that, but it will make conversion more difficult.

 

Well that's it from my part. Really looking forward to your opinions!

 

 

Careful what you ask for. ;)

[BrotherAtrox]

 

There are many reasons why the BT might not accept the Primaris. However, I think the BT are also pragmatic enough to recognize that after the Imperium has been saved, there will be plenty of time to settle the score, should that be required.

 

 

Are the Templars really the type to let the ends justify the means in this sort of scenario? I know that's a common term applied to the Imperium as a whole, but if the cost of "saving" the Imperium is it's corruption - is it worth it? It wouldn't be hard to write it with the BTs viewing this as Robert G. Lee usurping the Emperor and corrupting his work to serve his goals. I for one am very, very skeptical of Guilliman's intentions.

Edited May 25, 2017 by BrotherAtrox

[Brother Christopher]

@Brother Atrox

 

You are right. What you're speculating would be awesome if GW ever decided to consider "the setting" and not only "the profit". Sadly, at this point, I am sure that none of this will happen, just to make sure that potential sales of the New Marines won't get hurt. Primaris and Girlyman must be perfect, and will be - mark my words. Though, I would love to be proven wrong by GW's writing.

 

What they're doing with the setting just demands some kind of split, and I would like to see BT (maybe together with SoB) rebelling against Guilliman's heresy.

[Lysere]

My personal crusade will lean towards the testing out enhancing their own marines rather than welcome in newer ones.

 

If you combine the years of warfare and experience with the improved physique of the newer marines they will be quite powerful, but not all may be willing to take that chance and those who are alien to the ways of the chapter would not be welcome as new members.

 

To some Templars this may be a chance to crusade once more when injuries are heavy enough to find them unable to fight as they once did. They can act as test subjects to see if these changes are something the chapter as a whole will embrace, or ban.

[Castellan Doren]

I think the easiest way for the primarus to be accepted by the BT is for them to have their own crusade to prove themselves worthy of being a Black Templar.

 

Say a Chaplain and Marshall take a group of them on a private crusade against Chaos. And only if none of them fall, maybe allow teams of them to be slowly indoctrinated into other existing crusades.

 

As for me, nope not in my crusade. Same with psykers. Call me old fashioned.

[Canadian_F_H]

Fluff is terrible imo. Personally it never happened (fingers in ears blah blah blah)

 

Model wise, it's nice gw finally truescale marines... I'll be truescaling as much as possible of my existing and thankfully under painted armies, even if not identical it will mitigate and rediculous size disparity to within acceptible range of likely heights of a marine...

 

Rules wise... sword bretheren shouldn't magically jump from 1 wound to 3 when they are elected marshall... these will simply represent the most veteran sword brethren who are most electable to castellan or Marshal positions... he their stats are almost the current champion and chaplain stats...

[Honda]

Are the Templars really the type to let the ends justify the means in this sort of scenario?

 

 

It's a good question. I don't ever see the BT compromising on their ideals, it is what defines them. They aren't the "go along to get along" kind of guys.

 

Has Gulliman done anything yet to cause them to become suspicious? Not that I am aware of...yet. Also keep in mind the overall setting, the warp has manifested itself in unprecedented levels and scope. The BT are pragmatic enough to recognize that assistance is needed. Guilliman can be recognized as an ally if only because he is outraged at what has happened to Terra in his absence and the BT are no lovers of the Administratum either.

 

Again, time will tell.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

 

Has Gulliman done anything yet to cause them to become suspicious? 

 

 

Side with an Eldar... took his daddy's sword... impersonated the Emperor... shot a Black Sword... and tried creating an Imperium Secundus...

 

Yeah... #GuillimanDidNothingWrong :p

 

And I'm not fielding the NuMarines... my Crusade is located in the other side of this Great Rift... there won't be any way for these guys to just suddenly show up out of nowhere and try to reinforce me... unless they have psykers... in which case they'll pop out of the warp, be mistaken as Giant Thousand Sons Sorcerers and be shot...

[d3m01iti0n]

As I've said elsewhere they're a hard pass for me. I would possibly pick some up to field as IF but they will never get The Black until there is a compatible upgrade sprue and will merely be up scaled Crusaders. We are no fan of Girlymans and have more than enough numbers. It's quite silly to think otherwise.

[SWORD BROTHER RYAN]

If you don't like the fluff, okay. But lets face it, according to the new lore, we have at the very least lost one whole Crusade force. Who is to say that in order to beef up the existing Marines in other hard hit Crusades, Helbrecht wouldn't authorize the Primarus treatment to be given to existing Templars?

 

Yes, this tampering with the Emperor's great work is troubling. Also, that this experimentation has been going on for the last 10,000 years in secret is troubling. There is a lot to be concerned about here. But, let's take a look at the other side of the coin. We already know that the foul gods have not sat idle with their CSM's. The Death Guard is, I'm sure, just the first in the pipeline to come out against us. Lets also not forget the buffs that CSM's are likely to get in 8th. Not only that, but look at the xenos buffs that have already been released. If we don't adapt, both the Adeptus Astartes and Humanity will fall. Also, does anybody REALLY think that if the Emperor were still up and kicking that he wouldn't have created at least 5 new iterations of Astartes by now? Our own Marines would be as out of date as the Lightning Warriors of the Unification Wars are in 999 M40! This is just my opinion on the fluff reasons for accepting SOME of the PM's into the Eternal Crusade.

 

Personally, as I've stated before in many threads, I will not initially include them into my Crusade until there are some form of CC oriented units available. I may take on SOME shooters in the FAR future, but will get NONE until they can be justified in my Crusade as "existing Templars undergoing the Primarus Treatment under dire circumstances". That means, they will need to release kits with our usual assortment of CCW.

[Castellan Doren]

Also, does anybody REALLY think that if the Emperor were still up and kicking that he wouldn't have created at least 5 new iterations of Astartes by now? Our own Marines would be as out of date as the Lightning Warriors of the Unification Wars are in 999 M40!

I think fluff delivery is the heart of the problem for most players. If they had written stories hinting at modifications to marines even a year sooner, while leaving out girlyman's name it would be fine.

 

I'm certain if they had enough foresight we could have had more than 5 generations of modification. But from gdubs business strategy it would have been very costly. Essentially resculpting all versions of marines every 3 years or so.

 

Hell they were talking about true scaling them during 3rd, before terminators, rhinos, etc were done. This is there attempt of finally getting around to it.

 

Down the line i may build a new crusade from the ground up using them. But i will not mix them in my old force from years past. I have a soft spot for my old army, and i cannot in all good conscience add them to the old army.

[Marshal Wolfhart]

There is one point in all these threads that really bothers me. Guilliman, even though i dislike him as much as anyone else who's not in the blue trunks, doesn't act up as Emperor. He is one of the high lords of Terra and Lord Commander of all imperial forces. As such it is his task to watch over, among other things, recruitment and in conclusion to bolster the numbers of his assets to an extent where he can ascertain military success. I don't like how they implemented that stuff, but "oh look papa smurf is playing daddy" is not a proper argument. The man is just doing his job.

 

For the Primaris i'll wait and see. In my head adding "foreign" marines to the crusades wouldn't fit in with the Black Templars, as they rely on their relation as battlebrothers to form fighting units. That's something that would have to be learned from the ground up, as a Neophyte. On the other hand i can see us using that technology to "upgrade" our brethren, once it's proven to be pure. After all we used new technologies like the Land Raider Crusader when everyone else didn't and Mars even objected.

They might find their way into my crusade after all, but that's quite a while off, seeing as i have enough stuff to (re-)build and paint already. And the Primaris had some time to prove their worth ;)

Edited May 26, 2017 by Marshal Wolfhart

[Kastor Krieg]

I will add them, if at all, through IF/CF connections, cooperating with the BT force.

[Ciler]

from a purely fluff point of view, I don't see why Templars would have any issues with primaris marines.

 

They are the result of the return of a primarch, a freaking primarch. Now, I know Guilliman and Dorn had their disagreements, but i'm pretty sure there's still a very healthy dose of respect for primarchs in general in any astartes. They are strong, fast, they are not psykers, they fight for the emperor and have been sanctioned by one of the emperor's "sons". I fail to see where there would be any problem.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

from a purely fluff point of view, I don't see why Templars would have any issues with primaris marines.

 

They are the result of the return of a primarch, a freaking primarch. Now, I know Guilliman and Dorn had their disagreements, but i'm pretty sure there's still a very healthy dose of respect for primarchs in general in any astartes. They are strong, fast, they are not psykers, they fight for the emperor and have been sanctioned by one of the emperor's "sons". I fail to see where there would be any problem.

 

It's not about Guilliman AND Dorn...

 

It was about Guilliman himself... one of the main reasons that the Templars do not follow Codex Astartes ruling was because Sigismund himself spat back the Codex: Astartes as an unnecessary rulebook for the Emperor's Legion based design for the Astartes (as was written in the current Codex: Space Marine) if the 1st High Marshal of the Templars rebuked it, obviously everyone down the line would have done so as well, similar to passing the torch of teaching to your student...

 

Even if he is a Primarch, the Templars would still rebuke him and his works, especially if they see it as going against their ways or if they deem it to be against the Imperium...

They'd pretty much see it as Guilliman going all Horus and deciding that he can do a way better job than the Emperor himself...

 

Based on every Templar lore that I've read... I see the Templars as "tolerating" these Primaris Marines if they do show up... but if they suddenly don a tabard and paint themselves black and start calling themselves Black Templars for no reason aside for Guilliman telling them to, then I think those of the Templars who are learned of the history and the lore of the Chapter will have something to say about it...

[d3m01iti0n]

Marshall Roujakis knows what's up.

[Brother Christopher]

What Marshal Roujakis wrote is how I feel things would go if not the inexplicable love for ultramarine blue. This is how things should be. What the BT will get is either nothing (and I hope for this) or they will suddenly see the error of their ways and follow the now resurrected perfection incarnate (sorry for the bile; I'd really like to see some depth, complexity and ambiguity in the setting, something that used to be there but somehow recently disappeared).

[TheOneTrueZon]

That awkward moment when a Primaris and a Black Templar run into each other in the mess hall...

 

[Marshal_von_Speer]

Yesterdays announcement threw a light on the gravis captain (op updated). Stats look nice and I can imagine fielding him as regular BT Castellan or Marshal. I'll just ignore the "Gravis" "Primars"  etc.

 

Modelwise, I don't like the pose. Looks silly somehow. I might buy one when he's available as a single, non-snapfit model and try to convert him into something more black, more templar and more ZEALOUS.

[Castellan Doren]

That awkward moment when a Primaris and a Black Templar run into each other in the mess hall...

Close, but I think they would be reaching for chainswords.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

 

That awkward moment when a Primaris and a Black Templar run into each other in the mess hall...

Close, but I think they would be reaching for chainswords.

 

 

Only that... only one has a chainsword... the other has a bolt pistol...

[Kontakt]

I am concerned that they would give us two wound marines with LD 7 instead of LD 8. This does not seem like a good idea to me

[Medjugorje]

i am absolutly sure that Girlyman is not just respected a Little bit.. For everyone Templar it would be an honor to serve him and follow into a crusade...