8th Ed Tactics thread

[Lemondish]

We are still bringing a fragile aircraft into hand to hand. Aircraft crash because a rock off the runway gets sucked into the intakes on an engine. Someone throws a chunk of ceramite near the intake and boom. Aircraft have zero reason to be able to fight in hand to hand. Hell, they are 50 feet in the air even in hover mode, how are they fighting in hand to hand in the first place?

 

The Valk is not fragile as far as the rules go - Toughness 7, 14 Wounds, with a 3+ save. That's Leman Russ tough. However you want to think about the fight phase with a hovering aircraft, that's fine, but it's currently something it can do and we should probably take advantage of that. I think Ed was on the right track there with it being an abstraction of a legitimate battlefield event that doesn't necessarily fit into the nice neat box of shooting or melee. There's a certain amount of expected chaos inherent in a low flying aircraft kicking up dirt and debris right on top of an enemy, providing covering fire for the troops on the ground, and effectively grabbing the attention of an enemy unit. 

 

But charging should remain. I want to be able to smash that thing into an enemy at any time, especially in that 1-3 wounds section. Send it charging towards a squad where it'll hopefully crash and burn killing a bunch of their dudes in the process. 

 

Glory to the Emperor

Edited June 16, 2017 by Lemondish

[Gothical]

 

Imagine for a moment you open your turn by hovering and then move the max with that profile (20''), unpacking 12 models onto the board along the way, maybe putting them in close for some rapid fire. Remember, it's disembarking, not deploying, so that squad can drop within 9'', then move a bit closer to get into full rapid fire range.

 

"But Lemondish, that is dumb. Scions will die next turn!"

 

Then, once the shooting stops, you charge with the Valk to tie up any squads that might retaliate hard against your units you dropped in deep. Now you lost hard to hit and fly due to hover, but you can't be shot at now and hovering ends at the start of movement when you regain Fly, fallback, and can still shoot.

 

You avoided a lot of the heat you'd get if you were open to being shot at, and if you choose the right type of unit to get busy with, you might not lose a whole lot of wounds. Blast away again with the Scions next turn with impunity. Any foot sloggers or vehicles should be just about to crash into the enemy after two turns off movement.

 

 

Just a quick note, the Valkyrie retains its Fly keyword no matter what "mode" it is operating in, meaning you don't have to switch to having a minimum movement to pull out of CC and still shoot - normally better to, given Hard to Hit and Airborne are great rules, but you don't have to!

 

....it's an abstraction. God Emperor, why would you interpret every rule as a completely literal event?

 

In Mosul we had a Kiowa squadron that liked to hover up close to the action and shoot at hostiles with an M4 while hanging out of the door. They had a perfectly good 21st century gunship, but the carbine was just more fun and, sometimes, better for the troops on the ground they were supporting.

 

That's what fliers in melee are: an abstraction of door gunners, crazy pilots, and battlefield hazards that don't fit neatly in a weapon profile. The whole game is built on this same principle. You don't really visualize warfare in the 41st millennium as a bunch of dudes lining up and taking turns firing exactly 2 shots at a single enemy do you?

 

Neat idea - I might have to model a Flight Officer with an Elysian Lasgun popping shots off out of the open rear hatch to represent the "melee" attacks! Would complement a look of door gunners and abseil ropes really nicely.

[Lemondish]

 

 

Imagine for a moment you open your turn by hovering and then move the max with that profile (20''), unpacking 12 models onto the board along the way, maybe putting them in close for some rapid fire. Remember, it's disembarking, not deploying, so that squad can drop within 9'', then move a bit closer to get into full rapid fire range.

 

"But Lemondish, that is dumb. Scions will die next turn!"

 

Then, once the shooting stops, you charge with the Valk to tie up any squads that might retaliate hard against your units you dropped in deep. Now you lost hard to hit and fly due to hover, but you can't be shot at now and hovering ends at the start of movement when you regain Fly, fallback, and can still shoot.

 

You avoided a lot of the heat you'd get if you were open to being shot at, and if you choose the right type of unit to get busy with, you might not lose a whole lot of wounds. Blast away again with the Scions next turn with impunity. Any foot sloggers or vehicles should be just about to crash into the enemy after two turns off movement.

 

 

Just a quick note, the Valkyrie retains its Fly keyword no matter what "mode" it is operating in, meaning you don't have to switch to having a minimum movement to pull out of CC and still shoot - normally better to, given Hard to Hit and Airborne are great rules, but you don't have to!

 

Unless I am missing something key, I don't think that's the case. The Airborne rule on the datasheet is what gives it the Fly keyword and limits it from being able to charge or fight anything that doesn't also have the Fly keyword. In addition to removing Supersonic and Hard to Hit, Hover Jet removes Airborne, which in turn allows it to charge anything, not just units that can Fly. Hover Jet also expires at the start of the next movement phase, ostensibly unless the player decides otherwise. Since only units that Fly can fall back AND shoot, I think you'd need to clarify what mode it is in before taking any of those actions, largely because Hover Jet removes Fly. 

 

Or am I missing something huge here?

[HenricusTyranicus]

No rule gives the fly keyword to the Valk. It just has it. So losing rules wont take it away.

[zero88]

Anyone having any comments or experience with optimal Stormtrooper squad size and loadouts yet? Plasma and HSVG are the two pretty obvious ideal weapon choices, but what about in squad size? 10 man squads seem more appealing now that you can take 4 specials in a full squad and a cheap Astropath can buff them to a beefy 3+ save, but MSU seems to always have versatility. Mechanized or Grav Chute? The air drop is awesome for your special weapons, but it negates much of your potential hot shot fire since you have to deploy outside of double tap range. If you do go mechanized, are you going with Taurox Primes since they look awesome now, or a mini hellhound chimera since it works well in hot shot double tap range and has room for a psyker or other character on board?

[Tallarn Commander]

I'm personally convinced aircraft could fight in close combat.

 

Whenever my squad in the army was picked up in the field by a Blackhawk I always had an unreasonable fear of getting my head chopped off by the rotors (especially when we had a night time linkup). I always tried to duck down really low to the ground--not easy with an 80 pound ruck.

 

:)

[Gothical]

Unless I am missing something key, I don't think that's the case. The Airborne rule on the datasheet is what gives it the Fly keyword and limits it from being able to charge or fight anything that doesn't also have the Fly keyword. In addition to removing Supersonic and Hard to Hit, Hover Jet removes Airborne, which in turn allows it to charge anything, not just units that can Fly. Hover Jet also expires at the start of the next movement phase, ostensibly unless the player decides otherwise. Since only units that Fly can fall back AND shoot, I think you'd need to clarify what mode it is in before taking any of those actions, largely because Hover Jet removes Fly. 

 

Or am I missing something huge here?

 

 

Missing something huge - Keywords are permanent traits a model has, and are independent from the special rules of the model.

 

Airborne, Hard to Hit and Supersonic all change with whether you use the Hover Mode or not, but Fly stays. For proof, nothing in the Hover text mentions losing the Fly keyword; in instances where models gain keywords (giving an Infantry model a Bike or Jetpack) explicitly state the change in keywords in the releavant areas of the dataslate; finally Fly applies to all sorts of non-aircraft stuff now like Assault Marines and Land Speeders - who do not lose it if they stay still, for example.

[jarms48]

Conscripts look like they could be very powerful. Dirt cheap, great roadblocks, and great shields for independent characters. With orders automatically passing they've become very powerful, being the only unit to still be able to blob, thus getting the most out of FRFSRF. 

[Gothical]

Conscripts look like they could be very powerful. Dirt cheap, great roadblocks, and great shields for independent characters. With orders automatically passing they've become very powerful, being the only unit to still be able to blob, thus getting the most out of FRFSRF. 

 

Yup. You do need to be careful with them, however. Sniper models can cripple them by killing the supporting characters (especially Commissars), and the Vindicare is going to be a right pain as I expanded on in another thread in the Agents of the Imperium section.

 

Following the Designers Notes/FAQ thing that came out, another key things to note is how Coherency works now - if you cannot get back into coherency in a single movement phase the unit cannot move at all (meaning it stays out of coherency with the associated penalties) - meaning that the unit will risk the problem of either taking casualties from the front of the unit and potentially putting them out of range for rapid-fire or claiming objectives, or removing from the rear and potentially putting them out of range of the support bubbles.

[Gen.Steiner]

A quick question on Conscripts - can they take special weapons of any kind, or are they reduced to just lasrifles?

 

Also!

For 123 points I can take either:

A Hydra with heavy bolter
 

or

A platoon commander with storm bolter, a commissar with bolt pistol and power fist, and 20 conscripts.

Which is going to be better (in an army list that already has over 150 infantry models)?

[Truesight]

A quick question on Conscripts - can they take special weapons of any kind, or are they reduced to just lasrifles?

 

Also!

For 123 points I can take either:

 

A Hydra with heavy bolter

 

or

 

A platoon commander with storm bolter, a commissar with bolt pistol and power fist, and 20 conscripts.

 

Which is going to be better (in an army list that already has over 150 infantry models)?

Conscripts can't take any special weapons.    I'd have to see the rest of the list to know for sure for the second question, but can't go wrong with more infantry. 

[Gen.Steiner]

Truesight - so far it's:

Company Commander, Command Squad
Commissar
Ratling Squad
Platoon Commander, Command Squad, 5 Infantry Squads
Platoon Commander, Command Squad, 5 Infantry Squads
Platoon Commander, Command Squad, 5 Infantry Squads
Platoon Commander, Command Squad, 3 Heavy Weapon Squads, 2 Special Weapon Squads
Hellhound
Punisher
Wyvern
Hydra
 

2,000 points total.

The option is basically swapping the Hydra for the 'Conscript Platoon' described above.

[Harrowmaster]

Personally I'd stick with the hydra for the high strength firepower, plenty of infantry already.

[Truesight]

Hydra out of those choices I agree, although if you have them more commissars and company commanders would go a long way. That is -alot- of squads needing support, one commissar won't cut it.

[Gen.Steiner]

Yeah. Its ability to chop units that FLY into little bits is probably worth hanging onto as well to be fair.

 

To be honest fielding even one Commissar always strikes me as a bit much; after all a Regiment's Commissariat detachment is usually just a handful of officers - sometimes even one or two - and they're not always going to be in the thick of the action.

That said I do own several Commissar models... :P

The biggest difficulty I'm having is with Elites slots - 8 just for the Platoon Commanders and their Command Squads alone!

Edited June 18, 2017 by Gen.Steiner

[duz_]

Had a learning game yesterday.

 

Took one of my metal power fist & sword commissars. He managed to kill 3 GK strikes, 1 terminator with hammer and almost killed Stern too but the coward had to resort to trickery and explode my commissars mind!

Was awesome though never could have managed that previously! I did use 2CP to interrupt the charge phase so he could swing first against the strikes.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

Had a learning game yesterday.

 

Took one of my metal power fist & sword commissars. He managed to kill 3 GK strikes, 1 terminator with hammer and almost killed Stern too but the coward had to resort to trickery and explode my commissars mind!

Was awesome though never could have managed that previously! I did use 2CP to interrupt the charge phase so he could swing first against the strikes.

 

That CP is glorious, though you need to allow a charged unit to take one for the team lol.

 

With the advent of 8ed, I am going to start using Guard in my armies due to the faction keyword thing. Gonna take a pair of scion plasma squads in chimeras supported by a Space Marine vanguard detachment :D

Edited June 18, 2017 by The God-Potato of Mankind

[Withershadow]

Why would you put Scions in Chimeras?

[Gen.Steiner]

Because Chimeras provide top-quality firepower and a threatening table presence. It's a bit un-nerving for an opponent to see several tank hulls across the table from them!

[ThatOneMarshal]

Because Chimeras provide top-quality firepower and a threatening table presence. It's a bit un-nerving for an opponent to see several tank hulls across the table from them!

While I disagree that the chimera is the right transport I do agree with the reasoning Forbes the inclusion of vehicles, particular the the taurox and the scion special version. Their hardy and have much better firepower.

[Gen.Steiner]

Tauroxes are soooo ugly though! :-( They need aftermarket wheel upgrade kits to look decent. Tactically I do like the twin autocannons on them, and 4 shots at S7 is not to be sneezed at.

However! A Chimera can carry more models, has the lasgun array which can now shoot in all directions, and totes many more guns. So:

4 S7 shots and 10 transport capacity on the one hand, and...

...3 S6, 3S5, 9 S3 shots (assuming multi-laser, heavy bolter, heavy stubber and lasgun array at over 12" range - add an extra 6 S3 shots if under 12") and 12 transport.

That's between 11 and 17(!) more shots and two more transport capacity. I know what I prefer.

[NatBrannigan]

Tauroxes (Taurox? Tauroxen? whats the appropriate plural there I wonder...) are wonderfully ugly! I really like the look of them as they are. Still not much difference between the Chimera and Taurox (although the later has improved a bit this addition I think) and the Chimera is the classic transport.

 

The Taurox Prime is a beast now. Limited to Scions and Inquisition Acolytes and Inquisitors but it's a tasty option for sure.

[Shamansky]

Taurox (although the later has improved a bit this addition I think) and the Chimera is the classic transport.

Taurox is improved by nerfing Chimera

[micahwc]

I'd take the chimera if I could,  but I don't own any and I have two Tauroxen. So that decision is kind of made for me.

 

 I got to play a game yesterday with a borrowed Grey Knights army. I think tanks are used best as a distraction. My opponent had three razorbacks and two leman russ'. I had a Land Raider. I didn't kill any of his tanks in the game. I crippled two razorbacks with my Land Raider, and ignored the tanks as much as possible after that. Big tanks are great for drawing fire away from the rest of your army. But the drawback is that it's really easy to make a tank combat ineffective by getting into close combat with them. If they withdraw they can't shoot, and that's a good tradeoff for your opponent.

 

The Land Raider survived until the 4th turn of the game, with just about every heavy weapon on the other side of the table shooting at it every turn. Every time a wound got through it was with a lascannon, and every time my opponent rolled a 6 for damage. The dice gods surely wanted that Land Raider dead. My opponent was shooting 6 lascannons a turn at it, as well as three hunter-killer missiles.

 

Most fun of the game was when he kept a Leman Russ punisher in close combat with my last Grey Knight terminator, and he killed the terminator in close combat.

 

One question that came up: once my land raider had it's movement reduced to 3" a turn, does it still roll 2d6 for charge distance?

 

Game took 2.5 hours with me checking the index constantly since I was unfamiliar with the army. There where about 5 games going on at the same time, and 3 of the 5 finished before ours did.

[Withershadow]

Taurox can take a heavy stubber too.  Chimera's fire output is overall pretty mediocre (hitting on 5+ with middling weapons).  The reason to take them over a Taurox is the extra durability and transportation slots (for characters, Ogryns, or special weapon squads).   And appearance, of course.