Our very own chapter focus! :>

[Mr. Poe]

Do my eyes deceive me or does the Raven Guard relic say you can advance and charge in the same turn?

[Race Bannon]

Yep. Nuts!

[Alcyon]

 

 

 

Venerable dread with 2 twin autocannons.  Toss in a nearby captain and hes hitting on 2+ rerolling 1s.  Very good.  I think the sauce is going to be two ironclad dreads with 2 heavy flamers using the strike from the shadows stratagem.  Who wants two of those beasts in their face on turn 1?  Not me

Just thinking about this, the re-rolling ones takes the chance of a hit from 83% to 97% which is maybe a bit of overkill. That said, a Str 7 autocannon is only 50% to wound most vehicles and is only AP1, giving them a 4+ armour save in most cases.

 

50% to hit x (50% chance to wound T7)(66% chance for opp to fail 4+ sv.) = 16.5% for a single wound

50% to hit + (16.7% chance to roll a 1)(50% chance of the re-roll hitting) = 58% x (50% chance to wound T7)(66% chance for opp to fail 4+ sv.) = 19% for a single wound

66% to hit x (50% chance to wound T7)(66% chance for opp to fail 4+ sv.) = 21.78% for a single wound

66% to hit + (16.7% chance to roll a 1)(66% chance of the re-roll hitting) = 77% x (50% chance to wound T7)(66% chance for opp to fail 4+ sv.) = 25% for a single wound

83% to hit x (50% chance to wound T7)(66% chance for opp to fail 4+ sv.) = 27% chance for a single wound

83% to hit + (16.7% chance to roll a 1)(83% chance of the re-roll hitting) = 97% x (50% chance to wound T7)(66% chance for opp to fail 4+ sv.) = 31% for a single wound

 

So a single autocannon has only about a 16.5-31% chance of wounding the average vehicle depending on whether it's BS 2 or 3, whether it's moving or not, and whether it gets a re-roll from a Captain. Multiplied by two shots and four autocannons you're looking at the Dreadnought doing about 4 wounds. It does vary quite a bit though so the average isn't that helpful; on the low side, a normal dread while moving with no re-roll is only going to inflict 2.6 wounds on average, whereas a Venerable standing still with a Captain re-roll is going to deal 5.

 

50% to hit x (66% chance to wound T7)(83% chance for opp to fail 6+ sv.) = 27% for a single wound

50% to hit + (16.7% chance to roll a 1)(50% chance of the re-roll hitting) = 58% x (66% chance to wound T7)(83% chance for opp to fail 6+ sv.) = 32% for a single wound

66% to hit x (66% chance to wound T7)(83% chance for opp to fail 6+ sv.) = 36% for a single wound

66% to hit + (16.7% chance to roll a 1)(66% chance of the re-roll hitting) = 77% x (66% chance to wound T7)(83% chance for opp to fail 6+ sv.) = 42% for a single wound

83% to hit x (66% chance to wound T7)(83% chance for opp to fail 6+ sv.) = 45% chance for a single wound

83% to hit + (16.7% chance to roll a 1)(83% chance of the re-roll hitting) = 97% x (66% chance to wound T7)(83% chance for opp to fail 6+ sv.) = 53% for a single wound

 

With Lascannons doing an average of 3.5 damage for every successful wound, you have a 27-53% chance of wounding (avg. 39%) for an average damage of 5.5. Again a normal Dread in the worst case scenario will deal about 4 damage, whereas best case Venerable will do 7.5 on average.

 

My math could be very wrong (and honestly I am bad at math) but it looks like a Venerable with a Captain is worth roughly two normal Dreads, and Lascannons are worth between 1.5 and 2.5 additional wounds on the average vehicle. Autocannons can only manage to kill a Rhino on average per turn if you run two Venerables with dual Auto AND a Captain, whereas with Lascannons you can do it with just two normal Dreads with dual Las and no Captain. That definitely colours it for me, a regular Dreadnought is 30pts cheaper than a Predator with 4 Lascannons, two can kill a Rhino a turn and if you put the Captain by them they can kill a Predator or anything with 11 wounds and a 3+. I dunno there are some insights to mine here, what's better vs. flyers, whether to deploy your Captain with the Dreads or not based on your opponent, that's a cool thought experiment.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

With Strike from the shadows being only 1 cp... terminators + centurions are going to be terrifying.  Any battalion is going to be able to use this on a max of 6 units.  

 

I wonder how awsome this is going to be for maelstrom with a list of scouts/heavies that all deploy using the stratagem.  Should be rolling in VPs right away.

 

Question for rules lawyers:  Is Strike from the Shadows only usable once during deployment because of the 1 stratagem per phase rule?  

[SkimaskMohawk]

Its not limited  

 

Deployment is not a defined "phase" and happens before the battle begins. 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Its not limited  

 

Deployment is not a defined "phase" and happens before the battle begins. 

 Break on through!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd_PTQZJ8wY

 

Anyways... the brigade detachment might be the new hotness with unlimited stratagem tricks.

[Extropian]

Nvm, did the math, cents are better with melee for potential unsaved wounds vs t4 3+ save. So yea, take aggros if you need the points, but really just take something else

Well, that simply isn't accurate. Point for point Aggressors will do far more damage. 12 power gets you 6 Aggressors. 15 power is 3 Cents (I can't see the points yet, just power, but it'll be vaguely comparable).

 

Aggressors get, against Marines:

72 bolt shots. 8 unsaved wounds against Marines.

12d6 frag shots (average 42 shots). 5 unsaved wounds.

18 melee attacks. 9 hits, 5 unsaved wounds.

Total 18 Marines dead.

 

3 Centurions get:

36 bolt shots. 4 unsaved wounds.

6d6 flamers (average 21 shots). 3.5 wounds

6 melee attacks. 2 wounds.

Total 9.5 Marines dead.

 

Aggressors will kill double the amount for less points.

However, Cents are individually harder to kill (though not point for point) and are better against truly tough vehicle tsetse in melee with heir drills.

 

For pure alpha strike though, Aggressors are simply better.

[Andrés Pacheco]

Not sure if aggressors get 2 gauntlets, or a single paired entry. Think it might be the latter, so only 6 shots each.

 

Either way, big lumbering heavy weapons platforms do not strike from any shadows, even the Hank Marvin ones :)

 

Lightning claw vanguard vets do though. And no-Overwatch advance and charge characters. And they Honour the Chapter, too. Most things nearby are so impressed by this that they evaporate in red mist. Because of all the chapter honoring.

[Bluthusten]

I have no idea how i equip my Vanguards. Im gonna play 3x5 Man- Sqauds + Shrike, + Librarian with Jumppack :/

 

Any ideas for "optimum loadout"?

[Extropian]

Not sure if aggressors get 2 gauntlets, or a single paired entry. Think it might be the latter, so only 6 shots each.

Either way, big lumbering heavy weapons platforms do not strike from any shadows, even the Hank Marvin ones :)

Lightning claw vanguard vets do though. And no-Overwatch advance and charge characters. And they Honour the Chapter, too. Most things nearby are so impressed by this that they evaporate in red mist. Because of all the chapter honoring.

6 each, but they fire twice if they don't move. Including in Overwatch, which is just....yeah.

 

And I agree, Aggressors aren't super Raven Guard in style. This was just an intellectual exercise really, mostly to show how insanely broken Aggressors are likely to turn out to be.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

Nvm, did the math, cents are better with melee for potential unsaved wounds vs t4 3+ save. So yea, take aggros if you need the points, but really just take something else

Well, that simply isn't accurate. Point for point Aggressors will do far more damage. 12 power gets you 6 Aggressors. 15 power is 3 Cents (I can't see the points yet, just power, but it'll be vaguely comparable).

 

Aggressors get, against Marines:

72 bolt shots. 8 unsaved wounds against Marines.

12d6 frag shots (average 42 shots). 5 unsaved wounds.

18 melee attacks. 9 hits, 5 unsaved wounds.

Total 18 Marines dead.

 

3 Centurions get:

36 bolt shots. 4 unsaved wounds.

6d6 flamers (average 21 shots). 3.5 wounds

6 melee attacks. 2 wounds.

Total 9.5 Marines dead.

 

Aggressors will kill double the amount for less points.

However, Cents are individually harder to kill (though not point for point) and are better against truly tough vehicle tsetse in melee with heir drills.

 

For pure alpha strike though, Aggressors are simply better.

 

 

My math assumed 3 attacks base (4 for the leader) off the extremely blurry picture, since it looks closer to a 3 than 2, so it might be off if they didn't get that buff. I also only used 5 aggros in my calculation. That being said, cents do 4 wounds from combat with 7 attacks, not 2 so its 11.5 wounds. 

 

They come out even if the target is in cover because of the omniscope, and since we're talking about power armour guys, that's going to happen regularly.  

 

You also can't add both your double tap and melee in, because you need to remain stationary..... So it's 13 vs 11.5, or 6 vs 11.5 in cover. And this is against power armour, once you get to anything tougher, the aggressors lose out

You also can't add both your double tap and melee in, because you need to remain stationary..... So it's 13 vs 11.5

[Extropian]

You can double tap and melee. You remain stationary, shoot twice, then charge. Different phases.

At least, that's how it's written ATM. I wouldn't mind seeing that changed to tone the Aggressors down tbh.

 

How do Cents get 4 wounds? I did 6 attacks not 7 as I didn't factor either sergeant in, but:

 

4.67 hits from 7 attacks

3.89 wounds

3.24 unsaved

 

Even with e extract attack from the sergeant factored in I can't get 4.

 

Still, this is going waaaaay off topic. I think we can agree that SFTS is very, very good :)

[MajorNese]

Well, having read the current leaks, I'll have quite a bit to build for next month's campaign increase.

 

Reivers will work well with assault bolters, jumping in behind my assault squad. The bigger units are not fitting my fluff and points scope, but the primaris captain with stalker bolt rifle is an interesting profile...put them next to a gunline, and they are both buffing the gunline and contributing themselves, but still protected by the nice -1 to hit.

[Nusquam]

6 Aggressors are cheaper in points than 3 centurion devs. With SFTS future Raptor Aggressors will be deadly. It mitigates their one weakness of range.

[Mr. Poe]

If I read the Strategem correctly it goes something like this:

 

"Use this Strategem when you can set up a Raven Guard Infantry unit during deployment. You can set up that unit in the shadows instead of placing it on the battlefield. At the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, the unit emerges from their hiding place - set them up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models."

 

So I'm guessing this wont work with Dreadnoughts. And, the way I read it, units set up this way count as being deployed on the battlefield and do not count toward the 50% reserves restriction. 

 

If you want to be cheeky, It would be really easy to null deploy. and if you want to be cheesy, you can guarantee charges turn 1 if you go first. Hmmm....

Edited July 22, 2017 by Mr. Poe

[SkimaskMohawk]

If I read the Strategem correctly it goes something like this:

 

"Use this Strategem when you can set up a Raven Guard Infantry unit during deployment. You can set up that unit in the shadows instead of placing it on the battlefield. At the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, the unit emerges from their hiding place - set them up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models."

 

So I'm guessing this wont work with Dreadnoughts. And, the way I read it, units set up this way count as being deployed on the battlefield and do not count toward the 50% reserves restriction. 

 

If you want to be cheeky, It would be really easy to null deploy. and if you want to be cheesy, you can guarantee charges turn 1 if you go first. Hmmm....

 

Do Dreadnoughts have the Infantry keyword....? No.

 

And it literally says "set this unit up in the shadows instead of of placing it on the battlefield" so they count towards tactical reserves

[Mr. Poe]

I don't know, are you sure?

 

http://i.imgur.com/kjDd6vb.png

 

They dont seem to fit the description above but this could be my wish full thinking? It says they deploy at the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins. Is that a phase? or did they word it that way so that they can still move after this deployment?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Ah, you're not looking at Tactical Reserves on pg 215, where it says "When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield...."

 

So because they have the line that says they're set up in the shadows instead of the battlefield, and because they don't get set up during Deployment, but during the first Battle Round (Game Turn) they qualify for Tactical Reserves. And yes, can still move and advance as normal in their turn.

[Extropian]

They can move based on the rules as written. They can't move on the turn they reveal/deploy, but since that happens explicitly before turn 1, they can do whatever they want in turn 1.

 

However, they won't count towards the 50% that must be on table, as they aren't on table during the deployment phase.

 

Lastly, no Dreads :p

[Mr. Poe]

Ah, good eye man. They definitely are not being set up during deployment and would count towards reserve. 

[Extropian]

It's just as well. The stratagem is already insanely powerful, that might just tip it over to "utterly broken".

[Mr. Poe]

I'm inclined to agree with you there. It would have been really broken. 

[mertbl]

I feel like it is meant as a last second deployment move. They get a full turn and partake in all the phases. Not showing up like deep strikers at the end of your movement phase.

[SkimaskMohawk]

It's meant for alpha strike and some counter deployment

[Bluthusten]

Is there a mistake at Shrikes weapons? It says he can reroll hit rolls. But all other dual claws can reroll wounds...and he already has the ability as a chaptermaster...