Chapter Focus: The Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists and Black T

[redmapa]

Yes, also relics cost CP as well and I think its 1CP for one and 3CP for more than one but dont quote me on that because the stratagem is super hard to read.

[Ebon Hand]

Nice, so that means they're more likely to be seen in higher point games and have to be in battleforged forces. Very cool and makes sense in the lore.

[Marshal Mattias]

Yeah, that's actually some pretty clever game design right there...

 

Dang, this is so the worst moment to be a Black Templar who doesn't have time to play!

 

I have beast characters, all kinds of little buffs to my play style... through the whole of 7th, I loudly bemoaned how hard it was to find the Fleet bonus, and how regularly those failed charges derped my plans. I hated how hard it was to stop that one totally killer psychic power from going off (you know, insert OP-power-from-local-meta here).

 

This new toolkit just gives me all the stuff I've been asking for. I don't need a bucket load of attacks, because I always have a Hatred-equivalent where I need it, and every combat ended up being total overkill anyway. Particularly now that I'm almost always striking first!

 

Dang, I need to get a few games in with this codex...

[Stemplar]

Anyone else notice that you can now upgrade your captain to a chapter master for cp? That's pretty sweet for a generic Marshal and doesn't impact your list building

Didn't see that!! Even better.

[balordazul]

The reason the 6" heroic intervention was thrown around is because that is the warlord trait for BT

Ok now that is more understandable.  A little strange for a warlord trait.  

 

Is there a set of generic SM warlord trait?  

Edited July 21, 2017 by balordazul

[Kisada]

More good uses for CP make our stratagem even worse .... I've been getting 4-6 CP a game ... If I spend some on relics, spend some on a marshal upgrade ... what am I left with to use for denying witches and for interrupting my opponent's charge phase??

[Ebon Hand]

You just gotta prioritize. We can't have it all anymore, the days of Space Marines being the pampered ones are over. We have to watch morale, consider our choices and actions, and play smart.

 

That Warlord trait sounds very useful! My last two games it would have benefitted me as twice I was caught out of intervention range by an inch, while the ones I actually had ended up not doing much (+1 attack, didn't get to fight with him, and 6+++ forgot to use it and survived anyway)

[Cognative]

More good uses for CP make our stratagem even worse .... I've been getting 4-6 CP a game ... If I spend some on relics, spend some on a marshal upgrade ... what am I left with to use for denying witches and for interrupting my opponent's charge phase??

That is literally the trade-off. Better characters and Relics or other stratagems. Sounds like you just need to build a battalion Detachment and get 9 CP.

[Deadman Wade]

More good uses for CP make our stratagem even worse .... I've been getting 4-6 CP a game ... If I spend some on relics, spend some on a marshal upgrade ... what am I left with to use for denying witches and for interrupting my opponent's charge phase??

As I understand, all strategems use CP. Why should we be an exception? There's variety in what you can take, and it depends on what you need. You don't need a Chapter Master upgrade if you have Helbrecht or if you only need re-rolls for HTH, you don't need relics if you take Chapter master upgrade for SAS list. Also, beatstick HQs aren't as strong as they were, so this upgrade is situational. And if you need all of this, you can take additional detachments for more CPs.

In 6th and 7th we had nothing, Now we have a choice how to use aditional resource for more tactical depth.

 

You just gotta prioritize. We can't have it all anymore, the days of Space Marines being the pampered ones are over. We have to watch morale, consider our choices and actions, and play smart.

 

That Warlord trait sounds very useful! My last two games it would have benefitted me as twice I was caught out of intervention range by an inch, while the ones I actually had ended up not doing much (+1 attack, didn't get to fight with him, and 6+++ forgot to use it and survived anyway)

Agree. Mechanics look simple, but with all these small things like stratagems it's really interesting to test and play. I was very surprised with how different things are now. Suddenly my beatstick biker HQs can't charge into full squad and beat them in 3-4 rounds. But simple cheap captain giving re-rolls and counter-charging is almost mandatory to any list.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Deadman Wade

[Sete]

The reason the 6" heroic intervention was thrown around is because that is the warlord trait for BT

Source?

[Kisada]

The reason I point out the trade off is because there have been an uncalled for rejoicing about our stratagem (especially on the facebook post).

 

As for the warlord trait ... you can give it to any HQ that isn't a named character?

 

Chaplain Dread?

[Schlitzaf]

 

The reason the 6" heroic intervention was thrown around is because that is the warlord trait for BT

Source?

The DakkaDakka thread here, https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/729040.page the guy who posted the relics mentioned it

[Ebon Hand]

Warlord Traits go on any model with the <Character> keyword that you nominate you be your Warlord. That includes special characters and the Chaplain Dreadnought.

 

Special Characters used to have preset Warlord traits but I don't think this is the case anymore.

[Lysere]

The reason the 6" heroic intervention was thrown around is because that is the warlord trait for BT

Depending on the other warlord traits that's probably one I won't use with Helbrecht since he's better of just waiting and charging on your turn but that I'm sure some of my other characters will appreciate it.

[Ebon Hand]

Funny thing I realized, it doesn't say your Warlord has to be a character, it just says they have to be a character to get a trait.

 

That means if one if your Neophytes starts complaining about the weight of having to carry your bolter around, you can promote him temporarily to Marshal and see how much he likes assassins constantly trying to kill him.

[Medjugorje]

 

 

 

We're back Boys.Unleash the Tide.

 

Yep, back where we were at the start of 7th ed.

 

A chapter with a melee focus that lacks access to the marine character/unit that could buff their melee abilities better than anything else in a codex/army with sup-par to average melee options and in possession of special rules that do little to nothing to help make the army function as it was seemingly intended.

 

LOL what? Whoever gets charges off right now absolutely obliterates the enemy side. We have free rerolls to all charges for all our Units. And we have REAL anti psychic defense, in an edition where our characters are the BEST by far in the codex for their point costs. And you're comparing it to 7th where we had a chapter tactic that worked once every 100th game?

 

Yeah, I don't get these complaints. Humble Castellan (Captain) now gives re-rolls 1s to hit for ALL UNITS in his aura on top of being much better fighter than in 7th edition, chaplains now have 4 wounds, hit on 2s and give Litanies of hate in EVERY round, we can charge after deep strike and after disembarking from Rhinos. LRCs unleash more dakka than ever. Helbrecht and Grimaldus are just brutal, Emperor's Champion is quite decent. And we re-roll charges.

Our old codex said that BT prefer armored spearhead and orbital assault. Now both vehicles and deep strike lists are better than in 6th and 7th edition (maybe better than in 5th, but it was long time ago, so I barely remember how it was back then).

Not sure what people expect. BT never were top-tier melee army. If you try and go toe-to-toe with close combat specialists like berzerkers, you get obliterated. We are Space Marines with better melee options than vanilla marines, but we're not Blood Angels.

 

i think you are wrong here,...  we dont need to beeing blood angels to be the better melee-marines.

There were several times we were better and even in the horus heresy - we are the better duellist ones. Fight one vs one. 

 

So we are different in close combat - but Blood Angels nor better then us. We are not the brutal berserkers like Khornes favourites and blood angels, we are knights. We have swords and shields and the honor and fighting skills - teached by the best Knight - the BLACK KNIGHT ( a name was given from the world eaters to the best skilled swordman in the whole big crusade). The one who fight in melee against the traitor champions at the hour zero at earth - and where the Blood Angels had been in this time? They fought next to us, side by side but there wasn´t a Blood Angel to be the first Emperors Champion.!!!

 

 

[Marshal Arthur]

 

 

 

 

 

We're back Boys.Unleash the Tide.

Yep, back where we were at the start of 7th ed.

 

A chapter with a melee focus that lacks access to the marine character/unit that could buff their melee abilities better than anything else in a codex/army with sup-par to average melee options and in possession of special rules that do little to nothing to help make the army function as it was seemingly intended.

LOL what? Whoever gets charges off right now absolutely obliterates the enemy side. We have free rerolls to all charges for all our Units. And we have REAL anti psychic defense, in an edition where our characters are the BEST by far in the codex for their point costs. And you're comparing it to 7th where we had a chapter tactic that worked once every 100th game?

Yeah, I don't get these complaints. Humble Castellan (Captain) now gives re-rolls 1s to hit for ALL UNITS in his aura on top of being much better fighter than in 7th edition, chaplains now have 4 wounds, hit on 2s and give Litanies of hate in EVERY round, we can charge after deep strike and after disembarking from Rhinos. LRCs unleash more dakka than ever. Helbrecht and Grimaldus are just brutal, Emperor's Champion is quite decent. And we re-roll charges.

Our old codex said that BT prefer armored spearhead and orbital assault. Now both vehicles and deep strike lists are better than in 6th and 7th edition (maybe better than in 5th, but it was long time ago, so I barely remember how it was back then).

Not sure what people expect. BT never were top-tier melee army. If you try and go toe-to-toe with close combat specialists like berzerkers, you get obliterated. We are Space Marines with better melee options than vanilla marines, but we're not Blood Angels.

Until you mentioned the three special characters nothing you mentioned had a damnable thing to do with being a Black Templar, just a marine chapter that is the source of my displeasure.

 

The chapter tactic is a joke, it impacts most heavily where you don't need it (short range), can not be relied on where you do need it (9 inch deep strike charges), does not actually open up any game style and you could easily play a game where it has no impact. You could quite easily just play a game without a chapter tactic and have nothing change.

 

The IH tactic is also dull as all hell but will be called upon regularly.

 

Psyker defence is nice but not when you get it at the expense of something else because your armies normal defence has been denied to you.

 

The thing is that you will fail charges. The more you use close combat units the more you will fail them. Close combat with marines isn't like the orks, where you can fail charge, lose 10 models and try again. It's high risk, and failed charge means that your squad worth 150-200 pts did nothing and died. Without charge distance re-rolls I see no reason to take SM melee squads.

And as far as "being a Black Templar" goes, all other chapter got the same treatment. Old Space Marines are going to get that and nothing more, since all focus is on primaris, who are as bland and generic as possible. Minor buffs is what SM Chapter Tactics is now.

 

 

Plus with all the complaints about marines getting special rules for free GW probably wanted to keep everyone's chapter tactics minimal. It's a useful buff that fits our fluff but doesn't break the game in the process.

[Honda]

FINALLY, WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE TOOLS WE NEED TO BANISH THE SHADOWS.

 

SET THE HEAVENS ALIGHT BROTHERS!!!

 

IMPERATOR VULT!!!

[Medjugorje]

Lots of complaining as per but overall I'm very happy with the CTs and stratagem - relic is fairly meh as the buffs we'd want to improve are on special characters but may be worth it on a deep striking Chaplain coming in with Assault Termies, the LoH buff will be in range if the termies make their charge but the chaplain fails his - means a lot where thunder hammers are concerned.

 

yes .  and 3" in the right and 3 " on the left were huge - Its a big bubble

and the bubbles in this edition is what invisibility was in 7th edition !!!

The reason the 6" heroic intervention was thrown around is because that is the warlord trait for BT

 

really? i think that would be meh - but we can choose other warlord traits.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Medjugorje

[Marshal Laeroth]

 

 

 

 

 

 

We're back Boys.Unleash the Tide.

Yep, back where we were at the start of 7th ed.

 

A chapter with a melee focus that lacks access to the marine character/unit that could buff their melee abilities better than anything else in a codex/army with sup-par to average melee options and in possession of special rules that do little to nothing to help make the army function as it was seemingly intended.

LOL what? Whoever gets charges off right now absolutely obliterates the enemy side. We have free rerolls to all charges for all our Units. And we have REAL anti psychic defense, in an edition where our characters are the BEST by far in the codex for their point costs. And you're comparing it to 7th where we had a chapter tactic that worked once every 100th game?

Yeah, I don't get these complaints. Humble Castellan (Captain) now gives re-rolls 1s to hit for ALL UNITS in his aura on top of being much better fighter than in 7th edition, chaplains now have 4 wounds, hit on 2s and give Litanies of hate in EVERY round, we can charge after deep strike and after disembarking from Rhinos. LRCs unleash more dakka than ever. Helbrecht and Grimaldus are just brutal, Emperor's Champion is quite decent. And we re-roll charges.

Our old codex said that BT prefer armored spearhead and orbital assault. Now both vehicles and deep strike lists are better than in 6th and 7th edition (maybe better than in 5th, but it was long time ago, so I barely remember how it was back then).

Not sure what people expect. BT never were top-tier melee army. If you try and go toe-to-toe with close combat specialists like berzerkers, you get obliterated. We are Space Marines with better melee options than vanilla marines, but we're not Blood Angels.

Until you mentioned the three special characters nothing you mentioned had a damnable thing to do with being a Black Templar, just a marine chapter that is the source of my displeasure.

 

The chapter tactic is a joke, it impacts most heavily where you don't need it (short range), can not be relied on where you do need it (9 inch deep strike charges), does not actually open up any game style and you could easily play a game where it has no impact. You could quite easily just play a game without a chapter tactic and have nothing change.

 

The IH tactic is also dull as all hell but will be called upon regularly.

 

Psyker defence is nice but not when you get it at the expense of something else because your armies normal defence has been denied to you.

 

The thing is that you will fail charges. The more you use close combat units the more you will fail them. Close combat with marines isn't like the orks, where you can fail charge, lose 10 models and try again. It's high risk, and failed charge means that your squad worth 150-200 pts did nothing and died. Without charge distance re-rolls I see no reason to take SM melee squads.

And as far as "being a Black Templar" goes, all other chapter got the same treatment. Old Space Marines are going to get that and nothing more, since all focus is on primaris, who are as bland and generic as possible. Minor buffs is what SM Chapter Tactics is now.

 

 

Plus with all the complaints about marines getting special rules for free GW probably wanted to keep everyone's chapter tactics minimal. It's a useful buff that fits our fluff but doesn't break the game in the process.

 

 

Exactly, I think that GW is going to do their best to prevent codex creep as much as they can.

[Honda]

i think you are wrong here,...  we dont need to beeing blood angels to be the better melee-marines.

There were several times we were better and even in the horus heresy - we are the better duellist ones. Fight one vs one. 

 

So we are different in close combat - but Blood Angels nor better then us. We are not the brutal berserkers like Khornes favourites and blood angels, we are knights. We have swords and shields and the honor and fighting skills - teached by the best Knight - the BLACK KNIGHT ( a name was given from the world eaters to the best skilled swordman in the whole big crusade). The one who fight in melee against the traitor champions at the hour zero at earth - and where the Blood Angels had been in this time? They fought next to us, side by side but there wasn´t a Blood Angel to be the first Emperors Champion.!!!

 

 

Well said Brother, speak the truth!

[SydonianDragoon404]

Fellow Crusaders,

 

Let's review everything together shall we?

 

Chapter Tactic- Re-Roll Charges failed charges. Unknown at this point if this means we have to re-roll both dice or if we can choose to only re roll one. You can say it's obviously this blah blah there's room for interpretation in Guilliman's Codex so there's room here.

 

Stratagem- Spend 1 Command Point to dispell any psychic power cast within 24'' of a Templar on 4+ 

 

Warlord Trait (rumored)- Heroic Intervention range is now 6'' instead of 3''

 

Relic- Extend aura buffs by 3'' (can't be taken by named characters)

 

All in all I feel like we made out pretty damn good. Warlord trait in my opinion is probably not the greatest, but I'm ecstatic about re-rolling charges, Abhoring the Witch, and the Relic is actually super useful in my opinion for those game where you aren't using special characters like Helbrecht and Grimaldus. Take a Jump Pack Captain, and you can then essentially deploy re-rolls wherever you need them in a rather large bubble. That is extremely flexible, and there's no telling what kind of buffs we may get from other units like the Primaris Chaplain. If you're taking a Marshall (Chapter Master) you might as well put the relic on him too, more re-rolls is always a good thing. 

 

I'm quite excited guys. 

[redmapa]

I think we're in a good spot and more importantly we are finally on even ground with the rest of the chapters, we are no longer stuck with a sub-par chapter tactic or with no extra bonus while everyone else has some like in 7th. We got the tools to get nasty, rejoice for our time is now!.

 

My favorite stratagems are the Orbital Bombardment which might not do much but any extra firepower is welcomed, maybe target artillery positions or hard to reach units. Honor the Chapter will probably be a must take in BT armies, it allows one infantry unit to fight again in the fight phase, that could be huge!. Wisdom of the Ancients is awesome, I love dreadnoughts and turning one of them into a beacon to give re-roll 1s to hit in a 6'' bubble is freaking awesome! Load up on the Plasma cannons and overcharge!.

 

Its time to shine my battle-brothers, forget the promises of the past and charge forward to the glorious future that awaits us all!

[Firepower]

Overall, I think things are looking alright.  There's not much flavor really, but no one has much (and we have more than most of the C:SM).  But while the flavor is rather sparse, the rules, characters and such are a good notch above par for the typical Templar list of "This is a sword.  As is everything else."

 

However I am yet to see the Crusader Squad rules.  If it remains the same as the Index, that's fine. They may have decided we get too many toys in a squad, which would suck.  Or, they could've included the Dedicated LRC rule in the datasheet

Edited July 22, 2017 by Firepower

[T-Rock]

Honor the chapter sounds like a game changer. Imagine a 15-20 man crusader squad within 6" of Grim and Helbrecht fighting TWICE in a combat phase. That is straight up nasty.

 

We're talking 60ish chainsword attacks AND 4 thunderhammer attacks from a Sword Brother (all rerollable and generating more attacks on sixes) in a single combat phase? Sweet freaking Emperor!

 

I'm surprised more people aren't taking about this.

Edited July 22, 2017 by T-Rock