Chaos codex release date 8/5/17

[Vesper]

Come back tomorrow when we’ll be looking at the cunning arch-traitors of the 41st Millennium – the Black Legion.

 

[Panzer]

 

Come back tomorrow when we’ll be looking at the cunning arch-traitors of the 41st Millennium – the Black Legion.

 

 

Classic Alpha Legion shenanigans. :D

[Sception]

The article does give the anti-psyker rule text.  One is the world eater artifact - lets the bearer deny one power per turn as though they were a psyker, every successful denial forces a perils of the warp.  The other is their stratagem, one command point to nullify a power on a 4+ so long as the caster's w/in 24" of a World Eaters unit.

 

Main point of interest to me in the article is the hefty discount on power fists - from 20 down to 12.  If vanilla marines already got that discount then it's probably not surprising, but I haven't actually sat down and read their book yet.

[dark_elf]

 

 

 

This is why I don't think the EC trait is any good. Any time the trait will kick in it's when my opponents charged. But if they charged they will strike first. If I charge I was always going to strike first.

 

Am I missing something? I just don't see how this trait is useful. 

 

You are missing that it works like a free counter-charge Stratagem so actually only every second (beginning with the first) charging unit of the opponent strikes first.

You are also missing that from the second combat phase on you simply strike first unless the enemy has a similar ability.

 

 

Apologies. I should've been clearer.

 

I get that every second unit of my opponent strikes first. As well as for subsequent phases. But I did not know that there's a counter charge Stratagem that works like it.

 

Anything that's decent in CC will just delete the EC on the charge or cripple it to the point that subsequent phases won't matter. This is my issue with the trait. It does not really boost EC into the 'terrifying close combat army' the preview claims. At best it is a marginal increase in CC power due to not spending CP for that stratagem that you mentioned and this can only happen if multiple charges are made on the opponents turn.

 

I am not complaining. I am voicing my confusion though. And to me it seems lack lustre? Are there any specific combo's with this trait that makes EC a viable CC army?

[Sception]

 

 

 

 

This is why I don't think the EC trait is any good. Any time the trait will kick in it's when my opponents charged. But if they charged they will strike first. If I charge I was always going to strike first.

 

Am I missing something? I just don't see how this trait is useful. 

 

You are missing that it works like a free counter-charge Stratagem so actually only every second (beginning with the first) charging unit of the opponent strikes first.

You are also missing that from the second combat phase on you simply strike first unless the enemy has a similar ability.

 

 

Apologies. I should've been clearer.

 

I get that every second unit of my opponent strikes first. As well as for subsequent phases. But I did not know that there's a counter charge Stratagem that works like it.

 

Anything that's decent in CC will just delete the EC on the charge or cripple it to the point that subsequent phases won't matter. This is my issue with the trait. It does not really boost EC into the 'terrifying close combat army' the preview claims. At best it is a marginal increase in CC power due to not spending CP for that stratagem that you mentioned and this can only happen if multiple charges are made on the opponents turn.

 

I am not complaining. I am voicing my confusion though. And to me it seems lack lustre? Are there any specific combo's with this trait that makes EC a viable CC army?

 

 

 

MSU is very popular so far in 8th.  It's quite likely, especially if you let your squads bloat up to the 8 to 10 range, that the first charging unit will not in fact wipe out your squad, and being able to interrupt before their second charging unit gets to swing could significantly reduce how many attacks you suffer.  Can be particularly nice with ICs pulling heroic interventions against an enemy character.  Does the opponent activate their hero first to make sure they get their attacks in and risk your unit thinning out the charging squad before they get the bulk of their attacks in, or does the opponent activate the squad first, but risk your duelist character killing their hero before they get to swing at all?

 

This assumes, of course, that EC get access to some properly killy melee weapons to arm their heroes with, either from their own artifacts or the general pool, but I'm willing to assume that's a safe bet at this point.

 

It's also quite relevant for units that are tougher and less likely to be dropped in a single swing to begin with, like terminators, who also happen to be one of the best targets for both that 5+FNP slaaneshi power and that 2CP slaaneshi shoot twice stratagem.  If the enemy countercharges with some berzerkers, they'll do some damage, but be unlikely to take down more than a couple terminators with their first swing, and then the EC legion trait lets those terminators swing back with their deadly power weapons and fists before the berzerkers even get their second swing, and without spending the two points on the counter assault stratagem (which is good since, again, you're probably already spent those two points firing their combi plasma twice last turn).

[Azekai]

EC are still dangerous in CC... they just aren't World Eaters berserker-level dangerous. Which is fine.

[Vesper]

 

 

Come back tomorrow when we’ll be looking at the cunning arch-traitors of the 41st Millennium – the Black Legion.

 

 

Classic Alpha Legion shenanigans.

 

Damn infil-traitors.

[Prot]

EC seem to have the best of both worlds but I do really like the World Eater stuff I'm seeing. Slaughter Born is just good, tasty fun.

 

Right now my initial purchase of 3 boxes of Warp Talons a year or two ago is looking like... not such a bad idea? Everytime I played them or did a batrep with them on the BnC someone would tell me I'm crazy. Now who's laughing? (Literally... will it be me? or my opponent? )

[Apostle of the 30th Host]

In regard to the EC rule, I have been putting some thought into that and concluded that how useful it is depends on the situation you are in really. For example...

 

Situation 1: One enemy unit charges one (or more) EC unit - The rule is pointless here as there is only one combat to fight that phase and you strike second as usual.

 

Situation 2: Two enemy units charge one EC unit - The enemy attacks you first with one unit, but then you can hit back before the second enemy unit strikes. It forces the enemy to pick which one is more useful to fight first, but can be situational as if the first enemy unit is a combat specialist, you may not have much left to fight back with. But I guess it is a plus that you could at least kill a few models before the second unit wipes you out. 50:50 how good it is in this situation as it depends on the match up.

- In an even fight, it will likely let you kill a couple of models before you die

- But in a fight involving Characters (on either side) it is more of a choice of quantity of attacks v quality which could go either way.

- If though, two Tactical Squads charged an EC Terminator Squad, this rule is fantastic. The Terminators will weather the attacks of the first squad, then could strike the second, and kill most of them before they attack, meaning that their second unit's attacks are weaker.

 

Situation 3: Two (or more) enemy units charge Two (or more) EC units in multiple combats - This is probably the most tactical situation. in 2x 1v1 match ups, you could use this to your advantage. 

For example if enemy unit (A) is in combat with your unit © and enemy unit (B) is in combat with your unit (D)

1. Opponent choses A to hit your unit C

2. You then choose your unit D to hit enemy B

3. B then hits D, but does less damage as your full strength unit reduced their numbers

4. C hits A as normal

Therefore, instead of both enemy units hitting first and both your units taking losses before hitting back, the opponent has to choose to attack one of yours first, then you can strike back with the one that wasn't targeted, to maximise attacks and reduce damage - your full strength unit kills more of the enemy unit meaning they take less damage when the enemy unit attacks.

 

Hopefully that makes sense. I can definitely see how the trait can be good, just not all the time.

[Panzer]

EC seem to have the best of both worlds but I do really like the World Eater stuff I'm seeing. Slaughter Born is just good, tasty fun.

 

Right now my initial purchase of 3 boxes of Warp Talons a year or two ago is looking like... not such a bad idea? Everytime I played them or did a batrep with them on the BnC someone would tell me I'm crazy. Now who's laughing? (Literally... will it be me? or my opponent? )

Yeah the combination of what EC/Slaanesh CSM got is overwhelming. So far World Eaters and Emperor's Children are my favorite Legions rules-wise with Night Lords being very close. I think Alpha Legion will potentially be close to Night Lords for me as well if the rumours turn out to be true (which is pretty likely at this point).

Pretty happy that I decided to go with Chaos next and especially with EC.

[Brother Aiwass]

Khorndamnit! I really need more CPs!

 

Slaanesh & Khorne strats are so pretty.

[dark_elf]

Apostle of the 30th Host,

 

Couldn't find the quote button on my phone...

Thanks for your in depth explanation. Your examples confirm my own views. On one hand I'm glad I am not missing anything but on the other the trait is lack Lustre as it is not always helpful and certainly far from making EC a strong Close Combat army.

 

Thanks to everyone else who chimed in. Much appreciated!

[Khornestar]

If traits apply to bikers, then Renegade bikers have a 20" move and can charge. Unless there are stipulations such as "this trait doesn't apply to bikers," this edition turbo boost is an advance move set at 6" so it wouldn't be ambiguous. Not that they're super strong in melee, but that's pretty badass.

[Panzer]

Apostle of the 30th Host,

 

Couldn't find the quote button on my phone...

Thanks for your in depth explanation. Your examples confirm my own views. On one hand I'm glad I am not missing anything but on the other the trait is lack Lustre as it is not always helpful and certainly far from making EC a strong Close Combat army.

 

Thanks to everyone else who chimed in. Much appreciated!

Keep in mind that it's just one part of the bigger picture. Since EC are exclusively Slaanesh you also have access to the 5+ FnP power which works wonderfully together with their Legion Trait and the rumoured/leaked EC Stratagem actually grants an additional attack with a weapon for each enemy you kill (here the exact wording will be VERY important to know!).

 

Will EC be a dedicated melee army like WE? No, but they never were supposed to be something like that in the first place. They are a shooty army that can punch better in melee than other shooty armies to with the possibility of being quite devastating in melee as well. Being able to do anything at a decent level sounds familiar? Well guess they didn't forget everything they learned 10k years ago despite having practically done a 180° from what they used to be.

[Sception]

Of the (officially) previewed traits, I think world eaters have the best so far.  It's usefulness is under your control, since it's not dependent on what your opponent plays, like Night Lords and Emperor's Children, and it isn't dependent on the terrain situation like Iron Warriors.  Just some good boost to what the World Eaters do best, with extra utility for their most iconic unit (unlike the EC bonus which isn't notably more useful for noise marines than anything else).

 

Things even out a bit when you consider other things, though.  The WE command trait is nice, but I like the Night Lords and Iron Warriors command traits better.  And the world eaters stratagem is kind of situational, while the khorne stratagem is not quite as good as the slaanesh one, while costing more command points.  Their signature artifact is also very situational, the IW and NL artifacts both look better to me.

 

Overall, though, I'm pretty content with what we've seen so far.  Still on pins and needles for Black Legion - I'm skeptical of their rumored legion trait, but am much more enthusiastic about the rumored stratagem.  The actual wording of either could make a big difference, though, and last I heard there's still no word on their warlord trait or artifact, so there's still a lot of potential on either of those fronts.

[Prot]

I know I keep saying this but I need to see some real changes to Abaddon. I love playing him but he's way over costed. Also the fact he doesn't give extra CP's is just wrong to me (Calgar does). Points at 200 tops should be in order too (even with bonus CP's).

 

Tactics wise I'm kind of scratching my head at advancing and shooting normally? I Just don't really build and play Black Legion lists that would truly benefit from that.

[Apostle of the 30th Host]

Apostle of the 30th Host,

 

Couldn't find the quote button on my phone...

Thanks for your in depth explanation. Your examples confirm my own views. On one hand I'm glad I am not missing anything but on the other the trait is lack Lustre as it is not always helpful and certainly far from making EC a strong Close Combat army.

 

Thanks to everyone else who chimed in. Much appreciated!

 

No worries. I would add though, that the EC are still a very good army. The 8th edition rules are not like the ones from Traitor Legions in 7th. They have been designed to have the Legion trait, stratagems, warlord traits etc. all work together.

Looking at the trait specifically, it is situational, but when combined with everything else, it isn't as bad as it seems (see my second quote).

For example:

- if you survive the charge and remain in combat the next combat phase, you always strike first from then on as the charging bonus is lost. This forces the opponent to either charge you with lots of units to make sure they wipe you out, or only fight short combats (i.e. disengage after) to minimise losses in return.

- there is a decent chance you can survive the charge if you use a Sorcerer to cast the 5+ FNP equivalent on a unit before it is charged. In matched play you can only use this once per turn, but if your opponent is only lining up one charge, you can give that unit a good chance to survive and then hit back where it cannot make use of the trait.

- the shooting twice stratagem also gives you the opportunity to thin down any potential chargers before they hit you, which can offset any damage caused by them striking first, plus the EC rumoured Stratagem can maximise the damage you cause back.

 

What sfPanzer is saying below is correct and I have echoed that above. They can do everything well, but there is also an argument that all of that is situational too - you can only use the power and stratagems on one unit a turn, which is fine if you are only being charged by one unit, but if you are charged by multiple it may not be as effective.

There are ways around it though...

In the 2v2 (in 2 separate combats) example I gave earlier I would use the stratagems as follows.

- Use the shoot twice ability to damage one unit that is going to charge. This forces the opponent to choose the second unit to attack first to maximise the damage they do before you hit back.

- Use the 5+ FNP power on the other target of the charge so they can better survive the enemy damage output.

*Makes the choice harder as they either use their weaker unit first and risk their stronger unit taking damage first. Or hit your FNP unit as planned.

- Then, depending on the opponent's choice, use the extra attacks stratagem with the unit the enemy didn't attack first to deal maximum damage back.

 

In that combination, you have forced your opponent's decision on which unit to attack first, and given yours a better chance to survive and hit back hard. Although it only works once due to command points, but still. It's not all bad. 

 

I would try not to be so concerned about it though - it can definitely work in theory, we all just need to get a few games and do some tests. 

 

 

Apostle of the 30th Host,

 

Couldn't find the quote button on my phone...

Thanks for your in depth explanation. Your examples confirm my own views. On one hand I'm glad I am not missing anything but on the other the trait is lack Lustre as it is not always helpful and certainly far from making EC a strong Close Combat army.

 

Thanks to everyone else who chimed in. Much appreciated!

Keep in mind that it's just one part of the bigger picture. Since EC are exclusively Slaanesh you also have access to the 5+ FnP power which works wonderfully together with their Legion Trait and the rumoured/leaked EC Stratagem actually grants an additional attack with a weapon for each enemy you kill (here the exact wording will be VERY important to know!).

 

Will EC be a dedicated melee army like WE? No, but they never were supposed to be something like that in the first place. They are a shooty army that can punch better in melee than other shooty armies to with the possibility of being quite devastating in melee as well. Being able to do anything at a decent level sounds familiar? Well guess they didn't forget everything they learned 10k years ago despite having practically done a 180° from what they used to be.

 

[dark_elf]

I get that EC aren't supposed to be cc monsters like WE but it feels like the gap between EC and WE in combat is too significant. Especially since we're also labeled as a good close combat army.

 

I think Malisteen got it right. The EC trait is situational where as the WE trait is always good.

 

I guess if the codex doesn't limit our choice of units then we are more a generalist army with noise marine access.

 

Do you guys have any solid EC close combat builds that you can suggest? I ask because I subscribe more to the sword play EC from 30k hence my interest in close combat.

[Panzer]

Don't believe GW propaganda. Just because they say something is good it doesn't mean it's actually good lol

 

Also again, depending on the actual EC Stratagems wordings we could be CC monsters. Getting a new attack for each kill? If the new attacks can generate more attacks as well and if we can use that on Daemon Princes or Helbrutes then a charge from those could devastate any enemy unit just like a Berserker charge.

I think you focus too much on the actual Legion Trait when thinking about EC.

[Slaanbull]

For EC players, remember that we have/can summon the fiends as well. Disallowing enemy fallbacks and use our strike first ability while staying safe in the opponents shooting phase.

Maybe look at psychic stuff to kill remnant squads, and then shoot+assault again.

The last one requires a lot more planning though!

[Panzer]

True! Although I really really hate the Fiend models.

[Sception]

If you don't like the normal fiend models, I've seen decent conversions done up using daemonette upper torsos and forest goblin spider bodies for the lower torsos:

http://i51.tinypic.com/2lmbd49.jpg

 

Even for people whose painting/conversion skills aren't quite as good as the person who made these, the basic concept can still work well enough:

 

http://www.cardplace.ru/images/articles/Elvis/BrentTalksDaemons/8.jpg

 

 

Though, I'm not sure summoning is the right call.  Maybe a separate detachment of slaanesh daemons, whichever is the detachment that favors elites so you can take a few units of them, and have them shadow your rhinos to block line of sight where possible?

[Sception]

I know I keep saying this but I need to see some real changes to Abaddon. I love playing him but he's way over costed. Also the fact he doesn't give extra CP's is just wrong to me (Calgar does). Points at 200 tops should be in order too (even with bonus CP's).

 

Tactics wise I'm kind of scratching my head at advancing and shooting normally? I Just don't really build and play Black Legion lists that would truly benefit from that.

 

I'd settle for a discount to abby.  Though, honestly, he doesn't strike me as terrible as is.  My main complaint is more narrative - drachnyen should be a single attack dealing a bunch of mortal wounds, not a bunch of attacks dealing regular wounds.

 

I agree on the tactic.  None of the armies I've run in 8e so far would get anything out of that, and I'm having a hard time thinking of one that would.  But I like the rumored stratagem, and there's still room for the warlord trait and artifact to pick up the slack.

[Panzer]

If you don't like the normal fiend models, I've seen decent conversions done up using daemonette upper torsos and forest goblin spider bodies for the lower torsos:

<image snip>

Yeah that's definitely an option. Tho I was thinking about using the Steed of Slaanesh models in some way since I'm already planning to put regular Seeker on bikes.

[balordazul]

Hmmm no news on if they improve oblits?

 

They seems to keep focusing on the same go to units in the articles like YAY termies are awesome!

 

I was hoping for some more info on the different units but maybe they did not update much.