The Black Legion

[b1soul]

We might be seeing some parallels between Abaddon/Drach and Eisenhorn/Cherubael

[A D-B]

I will lose my (in a good way) if he had a hand in this war zone fluff.

 

He did not. The various sections of GW have stopped talking to one another again, which has its ups and downs. I've read all of the upcoming stuff, though, and signed extra NDAs - partly for info, partly so I can do the trailer scripts. That's obviously all I can say.

[Kelborn]

Policies are shifting regularly, hm?

Sometimes they work closely together, sometimes they don't. Sometimes group A must retcon group Bs stuff and so on.

 

Or is it just an impression of mine and it's not that worse?

[A D-B]

Policies are shifting regularly, hm?

Sometimes they work closely together, sometimes they don't. Sometimes group A must retcon group Bs stuff and so on.

 

Or is it just an impression of mine and it's not that worse?

 

Laurie can probably say more than me; these days I err on the side of caution when it comes to what to say or not. Suffice to say, I don't think anyone (especially the authors) would actually call the "Publications" era of shared communication the best in terms of release quality (and none of us were sad to see the end of it), but there was a certain consistency in communication that had an appeal.

 

A good example of what I mean is the Back Legion supplement, released a few years ago. This was just before the forming (and subsequent recent unforming) of "Publications", when Black Library briefly ceased existing as a separate entity. If you look at the Black Legion codex, the scale of the conflicts detailed as Black Crusades are incredibly small. I'm of the mind that many of the Black Crusades should eclipse the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, which raged for decades and covered entire systems, and required billions and billions of lives to stop, and so on. By contrast, some of the Black Crusades are listed as "a few Companies of Space Marines hold back the Black Crusade" and so on. I don't understand how that can be true, if Abaddon really is the feared Satan of the setting, a name whispered in dread from the lips of mothers to children, across ten thousand years - which is exactly what the IP department and messiahs have always hammered home into my head. That kind of reputation needs scale, somewhere.

 

When there's no communication or alignment between departments, you'll get conflicting accounts like that - but no one is slaved to other's ideas, which is a blessing. When there was communication, everyone had consistency, but books were homogenised with mini releases and quality famously dipped, as noted by practically every reader over a recent 18-month period.

 

Everything changed again with the new CEO, and Black Library came back to life. I'd much rather have it as it is now (and was before Publications). So, ultimately, it's a good deal. I doubt the Studio would want me or Alan Bligh saying "I don't understand the scale here..." over their shoulders as they work, and I doubt I'd want them telling me to adjust my ideas in unity with theirs, so in this case, a certain inconsistency is of benefit to all. 

[Mellow]

Gives a nice image of a company bickering amongst itself instead of working together and collaborating.

 

Anyway. Where's the link to the war zone trailer?

[A D-B]

Gives a nice image of a company bickering amongst itself instead of working together and collaborating.

 

Anyway. Where's the link to the war zone trailer?

 

It's the exact opposite. Literally no bickering at all. I've not said or heard a word from the Studio.

[mc warhammer]

Gives a nice image of a company bickering amongst itself instead of working together and collaborating.

 

Anyway. Where's the link to the war zone trailer?

sounds more like independent divisions preferring to work loosely together to everyone's benefit rather than a one ring to rule them all approach

[LaurieJGoulding]

I'm saying nothing until I've got my final pay packet.

[Kelborn]

 

Gives a nice image of a company bickering amongst itself instead of working together and collaborating.

 

Anyway. Where's the link to the war zone trailer?

sounds more like independent divisions preferring to work loosely together to everyone's benefit rather than a one ring to rule them all approach

Couldn't have said it better.

As long as they share the same basic informations, everyone is legit in doing their own stuff and publications.

More freedom for the authors.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

Policies are shifting regularly, hm?

Sometimes they work closely together, sometimes they don't. Sometimes group A must retcon group Bs stuff and so on.

 

Or is it just an impression of mine and it's not that worse?

Laurie can probably say more than me; these days I err on the side of caution when it comes to what to say or not. Suffice to say, I don't think anyone (especially the authors) would actually call the "Publications" era of shared communication the best in terms of release quality (and none of us were sad to see the end of it), but there was a certain consistency in communication that had an appeal.

 

A good example of what I mean is the Back Legion supplement, released a few years ago. This was just before the forming (and subsequent recent unforming) of "Publications", when Black Library briefly ceased existing as a separate entity. If you look at the Black Legion codex, the scale of the conflicts detailed as Black Crusades are incredibly small. I'm of the mind that many of the Black Crusades should eclipse the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, which raged for decades and covered entire systems, and required billions and billions of lives to stop, and so on. By contrast, some of the Black Crusades are listed as "a few Companies of Space Marines hold back the Black Crusade" and so on. I don't understand how that can be true, if Abaddon really is the feared Satan of the setting, a name whispered in dread from the lips of mothers to children, across ten thousand years - which is exactly what the IP department and messiahs have always hammered home into my head. That kind of reputation needs scale, somewhere.

 

When there's no communication or alignment between departments, you'll get conflicting accounts like that - but no one is slaved to other's ideas, which is a blessing. When there was communication, everyone had consistency, but books were homogenised with mini releases and quality famously dipped, as noted by practically every reader over a recent 18-month period.

 

Everything changed again with the new CEO, and Black Library came back to life. I'd much rather have it as it is now (and was before Publications). So, ultimately, it's a good deal. I doubt the Studio would want me or Alan Bligh saying "I don't understand the scale here..." over their shoulders as they work, and I doubt I'd want them telling me to adjust my ideas in unity with theirs, so in this case, a certain inconsistency is of benefit to all.

How recently did the Publications department split back up into its constituent parts? On a related note, does this mean we won't have to wait a whole year between Black Books from FW now?

[Sete]

I rather not know the internal works of a company.

It's never smooth.

Even in the army things are a bit more chaotic than they look.

Ignorance is bliss.

[Marshal Rohr]

I don't know why people assume just because it's a miniatures company it's not as soul sucking and corporate as any other job at a publicly traded company :D. When you make your hobby your job, it stops being as fun.

[Mellow]

 

 

Gives a nice image of a company bickering amongst itself instead of working together and collaborating.

 

Anyway. Where's the link to the war zone trailer?

It's the exact opposite. Literally no bickering at all. I've not said or heard a word from the Studio.

To be fair I've seen more novels come out this year than many other years combined so as far as being a customer is concerned I'm happy with whatever has changed behind the scenes.

[Vesper]

 

A good example of what I mean is the Back Legion supplement, released a few years ago. This was just before the forming (and subsequent recent unforming) of "Publications", when Black Library briefly ceased existing as a separate entity. If you look at the Black Legion codex, the scale of the conflicts detailed as Black Crusades are incredibly small. I'm of the mind that many of the Black Crusades should eclipse the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, which raged for decades and covered entire systems, and required billions and billions of lives to stop, and so on. By contrast, some of the Black Crusades are listed as "a few Companies of Space Marines hold back the Black Crusade" and so on. I don't understand how that can be true, if Abaddon really is the feared Satan of the setting, a name whispered in dread from the lips of mothers to children, across ten thousand years - which is exactly what the IP department and messiahs have always hammered home into my head. That kind of reputation needs scale, somewhere.

 

I doubt the Studio would want me or Alan Bligh saying "I don't understand the scale here..." over their shoulders as they work, and I doubt I'd want them telling me to adjust my ideas in unity with theirs, so in this case, a certain inconsistency is of benefit to all. 

 

 

The scale issue (because yes, at this point I believe that's an issue) is annoying me to no end.

 

You mention the blurb of some of the Black Crusades and rightly so, but it isn't the only occurence of that kind of scale misconception. I mean, a quick look at the Eye of Terror global campaign still pains me to this day. Around 25 chapters against the Traitor Legions. I mean, the Black Legion could actually solo the cadian gate if that was the case. In terms of scale, there is no way the Imperium could actually muster the forces needed to oppose the 13th Black Crusade with the hope to win without the rest of the Imperium collapsing because of the lack of those forces elsewhere when you need around a hundred Space Marines chapters to match the numbers of the Black Legion alone, without even considering their mortal osts, their Dark Mechanicus followers and their Daemon allies. And let's also forget the other Legions' warbands. The scale of the conflict is unheard of and trully apocalyptic.

 

Yet, despite those facts, who are all in the setting, GW can't help but keep it so tiny, to the point it hurts said setting.

 

In the end, the resulting feeling is that 40k is best illustrated by Ultramarines, the movie, where a squad of Ultramarines is vastly better than entire hordes of Black Legionnaires, because Chaos.

 

And dude, that's annoying.

[HeritorA]

I'm saying nothing until I've got my final pay packet.

Wise choice. Always an arbitrator

 

 

 

Gives a nice image of a company bickering amongst itself instead of working together and collaborating.

 

Anyway. Where's the link to the war zone trailer?

sounds more like independent divisions preferring to work loosely together to everyone's benefit rather than a one ring to rule them all approach

Couldn't have said it better.

As long as they share the same basic informations, everyone is legit in doing their own stuff and publications.

More freedom for the authors.

 

Freedom to the authors sometimes not the best idea. Some authors in that case will totally ruin any schedule and release for years. Editors and managers and prrofreading stuff are the major link to connect author with reality of 'deadlines', 'life', 'paychecks' and 'writing amazeballs stuff'

[Marshal Rohr]

Is Black Legion having 100K legionaries a new thing? That's pretty big.

[Vesper]

A new thing ? No. It dates back to the bump in scale of Great Crusade / Heresy era Legions. Since the Black Legion is the same scale of your 30k Legion, it's around 100k strong in the Space Marines department. As I said, if you add mortal armies, Dark Mechanicus forces and pacted Daemons, the Black Legion is something trully unique in the 40k universe. Unique and dangerous.

[Marshal Rohr]

Yeah, but I need a hard page number before I can buy that. At best you've got 50k survivors of the Heresy using loyalist survivors as a hallmark spread across nine legions. Then you've got to explain how 50k new space marines all joined the Black Legion because creating new space marines isn't an option. They'd only have the arms and equipment they took with them into the Eye. You're looking at a very serious amount of recruiting to compensate for the logistical needs to furnish a stable level of 100k power armored and bolter armed legionaries all loyal to Abaddon.

 

Edit: I'm not against it at all, exactly the opposite. I just need to fluff to reflect a plausible environment first.

[A D-B]

I try to avoid numbers, for obvious reasons. Once they get mentioned, they're enshrined at once. Really, circumstance may need them to change, or initial thoughts give way to better-developed ones, or the IP shifts, or whatever else. The 100K one that does the rounds these days is a mix of a mention in the Word Bearers Trilogy*, and the Legion numbers getting upscaled in (among other places) the 5th Edition Chaos Codex, the HH series, the FW HH series, and Collected Visions, etc. 

 

*And, interestingly/crucially, that was apparently a mention still using the old Legion sizes back then. (So I was told, anyway.) It postulated that the Word Bearers were about 10,000-Marines strong, and the Black Legion was ten times that number. Which shows the scale the Black Legion operate on, either way.

[Marshal Rohr]

I try to avoid numbers, for obvious reasons. Once they get mentioned, they're enshrined at once. Really, circumstance may need them to change, or initial thoughts give way to better-developed ones, or the IP shifts, or whatever else. The 100K one that does the rounds these days is a mix of a mention in the Word Bearers Trilogy*, and the Legion numbers getting upscaled in (among other places) the 5th Edition Chaos Codex, the HH series, the FW HH series, and Collected Visions, etc.

 

*And, interestingly/crucially, that was apparently a mention still using the old Legion sizes back then. (So I was told, anyway.) It postulated that the Word Bearers were about 10,000-Marines strong, and the Black Legion was ten times that number. Which shows the scale the Black Legion operate on, either way.

Jesus H. Christ. A million legionaries would be sick and also perfect, because that's how many it took to conquer the galaxy the first time. How perfect an irony that now the imperial space marines are fighting a losing war against the same forces they were made from.

[Grand Master Laertes]

When you make your hobby your job, it stops being as fun.

I respectfully disagree. Working for GW was one of the best periods in my life, and I still miss it after almost three years.

[Mellow]

300 billion stars in the Milky Way.

 

A million Astartes is not enough to conquer anything. Modern day earth could muster many many millions of soldiers. You know, if there was unity and no politicking.

[Marshal Rohr]

300 billion stars in the Milky Way.

 

A million Astartes is not enough to conquer anything. Modern day earth could muster many many millions of soldiers. You know, if there was unity and no politicking.

Can modern day earth muster many millions of men who are genetically enhanced, armored like a tank, armed with fully automatic rpgs, dropped from space, carried by a ship the size of an asteroid armed with cannons that shoot the same energy as a star and ordnance capable of burrowing so deep into the earth it causes earthquakes?

 

No? Didn't think so.

[LaurieJGoulding]

I respectfully disagree. Working for GW was one of the best periods in my life, and I still miss it after almost three years.

 

 

Out of interest, which bit of the company?

[Scribe]

 

Policies are shifting regularly, hm?

Sometimes they work closely together, sometimes they don't. Sometimes group A must retcon group Bs stuff and so on.

 

Or is it just an impression of mine and it's not that worse?

 

Laurie can probably say more than me; these days I err on the side of caution when it comes to what to say or not. Suffice to say, I don't think anyone (especially the authors) would actually call the "Publications" era of shared communication the best in terms of release quality (and none of us were sad to see the end of it), but there was a certain consistency in communication that had an appeal.

 

A good example of what I mean is the Back Legion supplement, released a few years ago. This was just before the forming (and subsequent recent unforming) of "Publications", when Black Library briefly ceased existing as a separate entity. If you look at the Black Legion codex, the scale of the conflicts detailed as Black Crusades are incredibly small. I'm of the mind that many of the Black Crusades should eclipse the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, which raged for decades and covered entire systems, and required billions and billions of lives to stop, and so on. By contrast, some of the Black Crusades are listed as "a few Companies of Space Marines hold back the Black Crusade" and so on. I don't understand how that can be true, if Abaddon really is the feared Satan of the setting, a name whispered in dread from the lips of mothers to children, across ten thousand years - which is exactly what the IP department and messiahs have always hammered home into my head. That kind of reputation needs scale, somewhere.

 

When there's no communication or alignment between departments, you'll get conflicting accounts like that - but no one is slaved to other's ideas, which is a blessing. When there was communication, everyone had consistency, but books were homogenised with mini releases and quality famously dipped, as noted by practically every reader over a recent 18-month period.

 

Everything changed again with the new CEO, and Black Library came back to life. I'd much rather have it as it is now (and was before Publications). So, ultimately, it's a good deal. I doubt the Studio would want me or Alan Bligh saying "I don't understand the scale here..." over their shoulders as they work, and I doubt I'd want them telling me to adjust my ideas in unity with theirs, so in this case, a certain inconsistency is of benefit to all. 

 

 

While on the one hand 'yay, BL freedom means better novels.'

 

On the other...'can we not get some level of collaboration here from at least a central IP controller?'

 

As someone who likes to have that consistant approach (again look at the changes to the Iron Hands) and is allergic to change, I would just like a bit more I dont now...not uniformity, but, quality control?

 

So, glad I guess if the Authors are happy, but I hate having 'well this book says X, while the codex says Y'.