The Black Legion

[LaurieJGoulding]

I would have loved it if the Studio writers asked me questions the way that Forge World always have. It's not that I tell them all the answers, specifically, but certainly we reach consensus and collaboration on most things.

 

But then again, there's the completely incorrect assertion by a lot of fans that FW and BL differ on the truths of the Horus Heresy setting.

 

Not even slightly. I've been an editor/proofer on both product ranges since 2011.

[Scribe]

I've always thought it pretty obvious BL/FW worked together on another level from what both did with GW Studio.

 

I've also always thought it obvious BL/FW were on another level than GW Studio...

[Sete]

Why the change on the Black Templars lore tho? Genuinely curious. Is it to tie in with Sigismund and Keller shenanigans?

[Marshal Rohr]

Pretty sure the keeler loving happened after the Betrayal of 6th Edition.

[Grand Master Laertes]

 

 

I respectfully disagree. Working for GW was one of the best periods in my life, and I still miss it after almost three years.

 

Out of interest, which bit of the company?

I'll pm you, otherwise it might go too out of topic.

[HeritorA]

I try to avoid numbers, for obvious reasons. Once they get mentioned, they're enshrined at once. Really, circumstance may need them to change, or initial thoughts give way to better-developed ones, or the IP shifts, or whatever else. The 100K one that does the rounds these days is a mix of a mention in the Word Bearers Trilogy*, and the Legion numbers getting upscaled in (among other places) the 5th Edition Chaos Codex, the HH series, the FW HH series, and Collected Visions, etc. 

 

*And, interestingly/crucially, that was apparently a mention still using the old Legion sizes back then. (So I was told, anyway.) It postulated that the Word Bearers were about 10,000-Marines strong, and the Black Legion was ten times that number. Which shows the scale the Black Legion operate on, either way.

Sometimes it's even better not to think on this. Do you know that between you and Anthony Reynolds and Nick Kyme and Gav Thorpe and Laurie - you almost entirely wiped WB Legion. 150 000 dead  - so yeah, better not to dwell on numbers. Or we could discuss how SW and smurfs are still kicking :)

 

 

Policies are shifting regularly, hm?

Sometimes they work closely together, sometimes they don't. Sometimes group A must retcon group Bs stuff and so on.

 

Or is it just an impression of mine and it's not that worse?

 

Laurie can probably say more than me; these days I err on the side of caution when it comes to what to say or not. Suffice to say, I don't think anyone (especially the authors) would actually call the "Publications" era of shared communication the best in terms of release quality (and none of us were sad to see the end of it), but there was a certain consistency in communication that had an appeal.

 

A good example of what I mean is the Back Legion supplement, released a few years ago. This was just before the forming (and subsequent recent unforming) of "Publications", when Black Library briefly ceased existing as a separate entity. If you look at the Black Legion codex, the scale of the conflicts detailed as Black Crusades are incredibly small. I'm of the mind that many of the Black Crusades should eclipse the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, which raged for decades and covered entire systems, and required billions and billions of lives to stop, and so on. By contrast, some of the Black Crusades are listed as "a few Companies of Space Marines hold back the Black Crusade" and so on. I don't understand how that can be true, if Abaddon really is the feared Satan of the setting, a name whispered in dread from the lips of mothers to children, across ten thousand years - which is exactly what the IP department and messiahs have always hammered home into my head. That kind of reputation needs scale, somewhere.

 

When there's no communication or alignment between departments, you'll get conflicting accounts like that - but no one is slaved to other's ideas, which is a blessing. When there was communication, everyone had consistency, but books were homogenised with mini releases and quality famously dipped, as noted by practically every reader over a recent 18-month period.

 

Everything changed again with the new CEO, and Black Library came back to life. I'd much rather have it as it is now (and was before Publications). So, ultimately, it's a good deal. I doubt the Studio would want me or Alan Bligh saying "I don't understand the scale here..." over their shoulders as they work, and I doubt I'd want them telling me to adjust my ideas in unity with theirs, so in this case, a certain inconsistency is of benefit to all. 

 

 

While on the one hand 'yay, BL freedom means better novels.'

 

On the other...'can we not get some level of collaboration here from at least a central IP controller?'

 

As someone who likes to have that consistant approach (again look at the changes to the Iron Hands) and is allergic to change, I would just like a bit more I dont now...not uniformity, but, quality control?

 

So, glad I guess if the Authors are happy, but I hate having 'well this book says X, while the codex says Y'.

 

Again - Freedom to the authors sometimes not the best idea. Some authors in that case will totally ruin any schedule and release for years. Editors and managers and proof reading stuff are the major link to connect author with reality of 'deadlines', 'life', 'paychecks' and 'writing amazeballs stuff'

[A D-B]

 

I try to avoid numbers, for obvious reasons. Once they get mentioned, they're enshrined at once. Really, circumstance may need them to change, or initial thoughts give way to better-developed ones, or the IP shifts, or whatever else. The 100K one that does the rounds these days is a mix of a mention in the Word Bearers Trilogy*, and the Legion numbers getting upscaled in (among other places) the 5th Edition Chaos Codex, the HH series, the FW HH series, and Collected Visions, etc. 

 

*And, interestingly/crucially, that was apparently a mention still using the old Legion sizes back then. (So I was told, anyway.) It postulated that the Word Bearers were about 10,000-Marines strong, and the Black Legion was ten times that number. Which shows the scale the Black Legion operate on, either way.

Sometimes it's even better not to think on this. Do you know that between you and Anthony Reynolds and Nick Kyme and Gav Thorpe and Laurie - you almost entirely wiped WB Legion. 150 000 dead  - so yeah, better not to dwell on numbers. Or we could discuss how SW and smurfs are still kicking

 

 

Policies are shifting regularly, hm?

Sometimes they work closely together, sometimes they don't. Sometimes group A must retcon group Bs stuff and so on.

 

Or is it just an impression of mine and it's not that worse?

 

Laurie can probably say more than me; these days I err on the side of caution when it comes to what to say or not. Suffice to say, I don't think anyone (especially the authors) would actually call the "Publications" era of shared communication the best in terms of release quality (and none of us were sad to see the end of it), but there was a certain consistency in communication that had an appeal.

 

A good example of what I mean is the Back Legion supplement, released a few years ago. This was just before the forming (and subsequent recent unforming) of "Publications", when Black Library briefly ceased existing as a separate entity. If you look at the Black Legion codex, the scale of the conflicts detailed as Black Crusades are incredibly small. I'm of the mind that many of the Black Crusades should eclipse the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, which raged for decades and covered entire systems, and required billions and billions of lives to stop, and so on. By contrast, some of the Black Crusades are listed as "a few Companies of Space Marines hold back the Black Crusade" and so on. I don't understand how that can be true, if Abaddon really is the feared Satan of the setting, a name whispered in dread from the lips of mothers to children, across ten thousand years - which is exactly what the IP department and messiahs have always hammered home into my head. That kind of reputation needs scale, somewhere.

 

When there's no communication or alignment between departments, you'll get conflicting accounts like that - but no one is slaved to other's ideas, which is a blessing. When there was communication, everyone had consistency, but books were homogenised with mini releases and quality famously dipped, as noted by practically every reader over a recent 18-month period.

 

Everything changed again with the new CEO, and Black Library came back to life. I'd much rather have it as it is now (and was before Publications). So, ultimately, it's a good deal. I doubt the Studio would want me or Alan Bligh saying "I don't understand the scale here..." over their shoulders as they work, and I doubt I'd want them telling me to adjust my ideas in unity with theirs, so in this case, a certain inconsistency is of benefit to all. 

 

 

While on the one hand 'yay, BL freedom means better novels.'

 

On the other...'can we not get some level of collaboration here from at least a central IP controller?'

 

As someone who likes to have that consistant approach (again look at the changes to the Iron Hands) and is allergic to change, I would just like a bit more I dont now...not uniformity, but, quality control?

 

So, glad I guess if the Authors are happy, but I hate having 'well this book says X, while the codex says Y'.

 

Again - Freedom to the authors sometimes not the best idea. Some authors in that case will totally ruin any schedule and release for years. Editors and managers and proof reading stuff are the major link to connect author with reality of 'deadlines', 'life', 'paychecks' and 'writing amazeballs stuff'

 

That's not what I'm talking about, though. BL and FW are historically fairly close, either through personal relationships, editorial oversight, or both. I'm not talking about authors having no oversight. BL and FW have a lot of oversight - Laurie is in this very thread. I'm saying the Studio doesn't talk to anyone, and that breeds inconsistencies. As much as that can suck, it's also the way the IP has worked since forever, and is ultimately something with as many ups as downs.

[HeritorA]

 

 

I try to avoid numbers, for obvious reasons. Once they get mentioned, they're enshrined at once. Really, circumstance may need them to change, or initial thoughts give way to better-developed ones, or the IP shifts, or whatever else. The 100K one that does the rounds these days is a mix of a mention in the Word Bearers Trilogy*, and the Legion numbers getting upscaled in (among other places) the 5th Edition Chaos Codex, the HH series, the FW HH series, and Collected Visions, etc. 

 

*And, interestingly/crucially, that was apparently a mention still using the old Legion sizes back then. (So I was told, anyway.) It postulated that the Word Bearers were about 10,000-Marines strong, and the Black Legion was ten times that number. Which shows the scale the Black Legion operate on, either way.

Sometimes it's even better not to think on this. Do you know that between you and Anthony Reynolds and Nick Kyme and Gav Thorpe and Laurie - you almost entirely wiped WB Legion. 150 000 dead  - so yeah, better not to dwell on numbers. Or we could discuss how SW and smurfs are still kicking

 

 

Policies are shifting regularly, hm?

Sometimes they work closely together, sometimes they don't. Sometimes group A must retcon group Bs stuff and so on.

 

Or is it just an impression of mine and it's not that worse?

 

Laurie can probably say more than me; these days I err on the side of caution when it comes to what to say or not. Suffice to say, I don't think anyone (especially the authors) would actually call the "Publications" era of shared communication the best in terms of release quality (and none of us were sad to see the end of it), but there was a certain consistency in communication that had an appeal.

 

A good example of what I mean is the Back Legion supplement, released a few years ago. This was just before the forming (and subsequent recent unforming) of "Publications", when Black Library briefly ceased existing as a separate entity. If you look at the Black Legion codex, the scale of the conflicts detailed as Black Crusades are incredibly small. I'm of the mind that many of the Black Crusades should eclipse the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, which raged for decades and covered entire systems, and required billions and billions of lives to stop, and so on. By contrast, some of the Black Crusades are listed as "a few Companies of Space Marines hold back the Black Crusade" and so on. I don't understand how that can be true, if Abaddon really is the feared Satan of the setting, a name whispered in dread from the lips of mothers to children, across ten thousand years - which is exactly what the IP department and messiahs have always hammered home into my head. That kind of reputation needs scale, somewhere.

 

When there's no communication or alignment between departments, you'll get conflicting accounts like that - but no one is slaved to other's ideas, which is a blessing. When there was communication, everyone had consistency, but books were homogenised with mini releases and quality famously dipped, as noted by practically every reader over a recent 18-month period.

 

Everything changed again with the new CEO, and Black Library came back to life. I'd much rather have it as it is now (and was before Publications). So, ultimately, it's a good deal. I doubt the Studio would want me or Alan Bligh saying "I don't understand the scale here..." over their shoulders as they work, and I doubt I'd want them telling me to adjust my ideas in unity with theirs, so in this case, a certain inconsistency is of benefit to all. 

 

 

While on the one hand 'yay, BL freedom means better novels.'

 

On the other...'can we not get some level of collaboration here from at least a central IP controller?'

 

As someone who likes to have that consistant approach (again look at the changes to the Iron Hands) and is allergic to change, I would just like a bit more I dont now...not uniformity, but, quality control?

 

So, glad I guess if the Authors are happy, but I hate having 'well this book says X, while the codex says Y'.

 

Again - Freedom to the authors sometimes not the best idea. Some authors in that case will totally ruin any schedule and release for years. Editors and managers and proof reading stuff are the major link to connect author with reality of 'deadlines', 'life', 'paychecks' and 'writing amazeballs stuff'

 

That's not what I'm talking about, though. BL and FW are historically fairly close, either through personal relationships, editorial oversight, or both. I'm not talking about authors having no oversight. BL and FW have a lot of oversight - Laurie is in this very thread. I'm saying the Studio doesn't talk to anyone, and that breeds inconsistencies. As much as that can suck, it's also the way the IP has worked since forever, and is ultimately something with as many ups as downs.

 

Indeed, ty for your opinion on this. It is much appreciated. In general - the main point from our fan side: is how better for you. The merrier - the better for us in quality of books and prose   After all - all of us paint toy soldiers and read novels about space mahrines

[Scribe]

ADB, forgive me but I cannot see the 'up' in having the studio not working with the (imo better) writers of FW/BL.

 

I can think of ONE thing I dont like coming out of FW's HH series (Night Lords origins).

 

I can think of too many things, I dont like that came out of the GW studio, some of which you and others tried to fix or smooth out as LG stated elsewhere.

 

Freedom for FW/BL = great.

Freedom and lack of communication from GW Studio = less great.

[Kelborn]

 

Maybe he I indeed meant this?

 

Maybe the inconsistency gives others the chance to come up with new and cool ideas?

[HeritorA]

Maybe he I indeed meant this?

 

Maybe the inconsistency gives others the chance to come up with new and cool ideas?

Exactly. Or at least partly so

[Mellow]

Here's a novel (hur hur) idea.

 

One company. One name. One consistency.

 

Seems a bit weird having parts of the same entity not speaking.

[Scribe]

Maybe he I indeed meant this?

 

Maybe the inconsistency gives others the chance to come up with new and cool ideas?

 

I guess, but it runs counter to my views on 'canon', and the setting. It just doesnt seem to help.

 

'Hey I have a cool idea.'

'Ok lets run it past the IP writer team!'

Pass/Fail

 

vs

 

'Hey I have a cool idea.'

 

Next Codex, complete departure of character for a faction set for 20 years...

[Marshal Rohr]

We won't know why the studio is the way it is unless we get someone working for them to start posting here, which they either aren't allowed to or rightfully don't have any interest in doing. I'm not sure what the studio handles fluff wise, but codexes aren't the main focus of GW proper, its models. All their fluff is going to revolve around the selling of models.

[Marshal Rohr]

Here's a novel (hur hur) idea.

 

One company. One name. One consistency.

 

Seems a bit weird having parts of the same entity not speaking.

I just got done working at an office of four people and had no idea what any of them were doing unless we specifically coordinated. I don't know what lalaland you think corporate work is like, but it is tedious and time consuming and worrying about somebody else pulling their weight is going to be more important than what the weight they are actually pulling is.

[MrDarth151]

We won't know why the studio is the way it is unless we get someone working for them to start posting here, which they either aren't allowed to or rightfully don't have any interest in doing. I'm not sure what the studio handles fluff wise, but codexes aren't the main focus of GW proper, its models. All their fluff is going to revolve around the selling of models.

 

Indeed. Knights are good example of that, going from relative obscurity to having multiple appearences in codexes and events after models have materialised. Warzone Damocles was a good example of that as well, where Knights and Skitarii were shown in decisively better light than Astartes and Imperial Guard, and one can clearly tell that models were the cause of it.

[heshman]

 

Here's a novel (hur hur) idea.

 

One company. One name. One consistency.

 

Seems a bit weird having parts of the same entity not speaking.

I just got done working at an office of four people and had no idea what any of them were doing unless we specifically coordinated. I don't know what lalaland you think corporate work is like, but it is tedious and time consuming and worrying about somebody else pulling their weight is going to be more important than what the weight they are actually pulling is.

 

I've worked in plenty of large companies and in the well run of them there is always a corporate department for coordinating company-wide initiatives, branding, and the general coalescing of the message the public is privy to.  IMO there's no defense for the Studio not working with BL/FW, it's difficult to interpret that as anything other than poor management.  

[A D-B]

 

Maybe he I indeed meant this?

 

Maybe the inconsistency gives others the chance to come up with new and cool ideas?

 

I guess, but it runs counter to my views on 'canon', and the setting. It just doesnt seem to help.

 

It's been like this since basically forever. It's not new. It's just how it is, and pretty much how it's always been. I'm not going to criticise it, and I've already given a personal example for why there are advantages to it. 

[Marshal Rohr]

ADB, the mystery of why the studio is so detached is killing me. i can't for the life of me fathom any reason why they aren't at least cordial.

[A D-B]

ADB, the mystery of why the studio is so detached is killing me. i can't for the life of me fathom any reason why they aren't at least cordial.

 

Not my circus, not my monkeys. Any freelancer has access to informed editors and IP folks, anyway. It's been Laurie's job since he started, and Alan Bligh and I share drafts all the time.

 

It's not like everyone outside the Studio is randomly smacking a keyboard with no authority or guidance or ability to touch base. 

[Sete]

Nvm off topic

[Scribe]

Well, I get that ADB, I think that I will probably just have read into what is not being said, as I come from a corporation as well. :p

 

:cuss happens.

[Mellow]

 

Here's a novel (hur hur) idea.

 

One company. One name. One consistency.

 

Seems a bit weird having parts of the same entity not speaking.

I just got done working at an office of four people and had no idea what any of them were doing unless we specifically coordinated. I don't know what lalaland you think corporate work is like, but it is tedious and time consuming and worrying about somebody else pulling their weight is going to be more important than what the weight they are actually pulling is.

Thanks for you opinion on what I think corporate lala land is. However you're wrong. You simply work in a badly managed office if everyone (a huge 4 people) needs to be specifically managed to know what each other is doing.

 

Anyway. Back to topic. It seems like a terrible place to work. What ever has changed to produce more novels this year is a good thing. I as a consumer enjoy the novels. The toy soldiers however can go in the furnace and are of no value to me. :)

[Marshal Rohr]

I think my point was 'whose monkeys are they, and why are they shredding my house'. :P

[HeritorA]

Here's a novel (hur hur) idea.

 

One company. One name. One consistency.

 

Seems a bit weird having parts of the same entity not speaking.

Entity - I feel a brotherly developer soul here

 

ADB, the mystery of why the studio is so detached is killing me. i can't for the life of me fathom any reason why they aren't at least cordial.

 

Not my circus, not my monkeys. Any freelancer has access to informed editors and IP folks, anyway. It's been Laurie's job since he started, and Alan Bligh and I share drafts all the time.

 

It's not like everyone outside the Studio is randomly smacking a keyboard with no authority or guidance or ability to touch base. 

 

Very intuitive and descriptive info. Thank you  A D-B. So you have at least partial influence on Forge World books? Especially HH? Alan Bligh provided you the material or you shown him your own? And then you validated things?

 

I think my point was 'whose monkeys are they, and why are they shredding my house'.

Orrr that one

 

'The toy soldiers however can go in the furnace and are of no value to me. ' - some of us not simply read the books, but has whole armies, which we paint all day long