The Black Legion

[HeritorA]

 

 

So is Dorn 'lost' during this second book or is he still around?

 

Dorn is supposed to die during a Black Crusade that takes place after the first one. And one not led by Abaddon.

So we could infere that it's one called by one of Abaddon's rivals (because if you're not with me, you're against me) who tries to emulate his success.

And even if his Black Crusade kinda fails, I guess coming back in the Eye with the skull of Dorn around your neck would be great enough to build a huge reputation and threaten Abaddon's might. Which could lead to a great rivalry.

 

 

EDIT :

Could we have some scenes where Khayon goes "drat, maybe I shouldn't have told them that" or an Inquisitor points something out that he had never considered before? The part at the end where he tells the Lady Inquisitor that he's telling them this because they're @£"ed anyway was cool, but it would be nice if his captors get in some rhetorical hits of their own every now and then.

I wonder how the framming will go. I know ADB had no idea if Abaddon would try to "rescue" Khayon, but I think it's unlikely since Khayon told his captors Abaddon wanted him here (even though it might be a lie). Or maybe he'll escape and go deliver his message to what's left of the Emperor. Telling his last living cells "We are returned".

 

 

I personally hope Khayon doesn't escape and leave Terra. He's the narrator and framing device. I need him there, talking to people.

 

If he escaped, that'd be pretty damn selfish of him. 

 

Ahem - if Dorn dies after the First Ab. Black Crusade a question does arise. Why then he does not hunt Ab. in person???

[A D-B]

 

 

 

So is Dorn 'lost' during this second book or is he still around?

 

Dorn is supposed to die during a Black Crusade that takes place after the first one. And one not led by Abaddon.

So we could infere that it's one called by one of Abaddon's rivals (because if you're not with me, you're against me) who tries to emulate his success.

And even if his Black Crusade kinda fails, I guess coming back in the Eye with the skull of Dorn around your neck would be great enough to build a huge reputation and threaten Abaddon's might. Which could lead to a great rivalry.

 

 

EDIT :

Could we have some scenes where Khayon goes "drat, maybe I shouldn't have told them that" or an Inquisitor points something out that he had never considered before? The part at the end where he tells the Lady Inquisitor that he's telling them this because they're @£"ed anyway was cool, but it would be nice if his captors get in some rhetorical hits of their own every now and then.

I wonder how the framming will go. I know ADB had no idea if Abaddon would try to "rescue" Khayon, but I think it's unlikely since Khayon told his captors Abaddon wanted him here (even though it might be a lie). Or maybe he'll escape and go deliver his message to what's left of the Emperor. Telling his last living cells "We are returned".

 

 

I personally hope Khayon doesn't escape and leave Terra. He's the narrator and framing device. I need him there, talking to people.

 

If he escaped, that'd be pretty damn selfish of him. 

 

Ahem - if Dorn dies after the First Ab. Black Crusade a question does arise. Why then he does not hunt Ab. in person???

 

 

Are you aware, old bean, of how many of your posts (on this forum, on other forums, on Facebook, and even in person...) are phrased like you're trying to hold someone to account, or as if you've discovered some insightful mistake that demands to be pointed out?

 

To answer the question, though: Why didn't the Archangel Michael go into Hell to chase Lucifer? Why didn't Phillip II raze Sparta to the ground after threatening to do so? Why didn't the American Army immediately find Saddam or bin Laden?

 

Many different answers to those three scenarios, several of which of which are equally plausible, without touching any silly conspiracy theories. 

[Kelborn]

That just made my day.

 

Thank you, A D B! <3

 

 

 

The galaxy is huge.

 

How narrow is the chance that ol' Ab faces off Dorn right away? He can be lucky that he had faced at least someone of importance and gain the kill score for it.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So is Dorn 'lost' during this second book or is he still around?

Dorn is supposed to die during a Black Crusade that takes place after the first one. And one not led by Abaddon.

So we could infere that it's one called by one of Abaddon's rivals (because if you're not with me, you're against me) who tries to emulate his success.

And even if his Black Crusade kinda fails, I guess coming back in the Eye with the skull of Dorn around your neck would be great enough to build a huge reputation and threaten Abaddon's might. Which could lead to a great rivalry.

 

 

EDIT :

Could we have some scenes where Khayon goes "drat, maybe I shouldn't have told them that" or an Inquisitor points something out that he had never considered before? The part at the end where he tells the Lady Inquisitor that he's telling them this because they're @£"ed anyway was cool, but it would be nice if his captors get in some rhetorical hits of their own every now and then.

I wonder how the framming will go. I know ADB had no idea if Abaddon would try to "rescue" Khayon, but I think it's unlikely since Khayon told his captors Abaddon wanted him here (even though it might be a lie). Or maybe he'll escape and go deliver his message to what's left of the Emperor. Telling his last living cells "We are returned".

I personally hope Khayon doesn't escape and leave Terra. He's the narrator and framing device. I need him there, talking to people.

 

If he escaped, that'd be pretty damn selfish of him.

Ahem - if Dorn dies after the First Ab. Black Crusade a question does arise. Why then he does not hunt Ab. in person???

Are you aware, old bean, of how many of your posts (on this forum, on other forums, on Facebook, and even in person...) are phrased like you're trying to hold someone to account, or as if you've discovered some insightful mistake that demands to be pointed out?

 

To answer the question, though: Why didn't the Archangel Michael go into Hell to chase Lucifer? Why didn't Phillip II raze Sparta to the ground after threatening to do so? Why didn't the American Army immediately find Saddam or bin Laden?

 

Many different answers to those three scenarios, several of which of which are equally plausible, without touching any silly conspiracy theories.

Everyone knows saddam and bin laden were protected by the lizard people cabal that rules the world. Jeez, ADB.

[Loesh]

It's been awhile since I posted here, but I just wanted to pop in to say.

 

In a universe where you have to sail through hell to reach someone over billions of worlds, whose to say that A. Dorn doesn't have something more important happening with a different branch of the black crusade(I.E the bulk of it's force.) far away from where Abaddon is, B. Actually KNOWS where Abaddon is, and C. is able to reach him before Sigismund does and/or is running far away from that sector by then.

[HeritorA]

A D-B, Kelborn,Marshal Rohr, Loesh

well done

 

'are phrased like you're trying to hold someone to account' - not a native speaker ;) Nothing bad was intended. Love you all  

[Brother Heinrich]

Just finished reading the Talon of Horus again for about the 5th time and I was coming on here to ask if anyone knew whether progress had been made towards book two or not. Thank you AD-B and everyone else for making my whole day. 

 

- H

[Warhead01]

I just finished listening to Talon of Hours on Audio Book. I really enjoyed it. 
I noticed both a Starblazers and Captain Harlock reference ..... I'm really looking forward to the next book. 

[HeritorA]

First Black Crusade can't come quick enough! For the Warmaster! Let the Galaxy BURN!

[Loesh]

I'm interested in the First Black Crusade as much for the Black Legion as everyone else, it's a good opportunity to give us a glimpse into what the Chaos Legions have been up to during the Long War. Something that, surprisingly, we've barely touched on while being close to the end.

 

I don't think I need to tell you what Legion in particular i'd like to see. Did the Emperors Children participate? Did they still hold a grudge from the Legion Wars? Do many simply not care? how do they feel about Telemachon and other Emperors Children in the Black Legion? Are Lucius and Eidolon in on this? hell are Typhus, Khârn, and Ahirman taking advantage of the situation? Are the Daemon Primarchs still disinterested or are a few of them starting to pitch in either by force or by favor? some of these things probably deserve their own book, but taking a look would be cool.

 

And of course: What the hell is going on with Fabius Bile?

[HeritorA]

I'm interested in the First Black Crusade as much for the Black Legion as everyone else, it's a good opportunity to give us a glimpse into what the Chaos Legions have been up to during the Long War. Something that, surprisingly, we've barely touched on while being close to the end.

 

I don't think I need to tell you what Legion in particular i'd like to see. Did the Emperors Children participate? Did they still hold a grudge from the Legion Wars? Do many simply not care? how do they feel about Telemachon and other Emperors Children in the Black Legion? Are Lucius and Eidolon in on this? hell are Typhus, Khârn, and Ahirman taking advantage of the situation? Are the Daemon Primarchs still disinterested or are a few of them starting to pitch in either by force or by favor? some of these things probably deserve their own book, but taking a look would be cool.

 

And of course: What the hell is going on with Fabius Bile?

Sigismund vs Abaddon - all I want to know! Plus, of course, a lot of void warfare and Black Legion tactics. Plus Khayon Cards of course

[Phoebus]

Loesh,

 

Random tangent: when you mentioned seeing "what the Chaos Legions have been up to during the Long War," my thoughts wandered less to specific events and more toward how the legions themselves had changed in that period of time. That is to say, what effect - physical, psychological, etc. - the Ruinous Powers had had on them.

 

I've been behind on my reading, and have just gotten to The Path of Heaven. One of the things I've been enjoying the most about this novel thus far is something I felt was missing by so many of its predecessors: the depiction of a legion in the midst of great change. I love the dynamic between Eidolon and Cario. The former has surrendered to Slaanesh, bears its marks, and is reaping the rewards; the latter shows the willingness to walk the same path but is such an excellent (in my humble opinion) example of a Chaos Space Marine in the making. It occurs to me that what Chris Wraight has done so well here is something we should've seen more of in the earlier phases of the series. It feels to me that the only other novel that attempts to work that sense of transition-corruption is The First Heretic. That novel, however, was preceded by entries as early as Fulgrim, in which the Traitor Legions are really not distinct in any meaningful way (in terms of behavior, madness, atrocity, look) from their 40k counterparts.

 

Where this topic is concerned, I feel this phenomenon has kind of undermined the Black Legion series. I don't doubt we'll see excellent characters and a highly enjoyable story, but some of the impact the transformation of the Traitors could have provided has been stolen. We all knew the Emperor's Children become a largely uncontrollable legion of sadomasochistic, pleasure-seeking killers by the time of the Siege of Terra, but it's unfortunate that we won't get to see a more considered progression to that state.

[Loesh]

I find that interesting Phoebus, as I actually think that Fulgrim, Reflection Crack'd, and Angel Exterminatus show Chaos corruption as well...perhaps even better then...the First Heretic, though that in part is because of the Legion and their unique place within the Warhammer universe. This might get a little bit ranty because i'v got a lot of thoughts on it.

 

No one fell as far, or as hard, as the Emperors Children. The Word Bearers were the first to willingly start the path of corruption but the Emperors Children were for all intents and purpose the first actual Chaos Space Marines. This is because, in part, their corruption had already begun long before Fulgrim ever knew what Slaanesh was called.

 

Often it's asked why in the beginning of Fulgrim a devil in plain sight like Fabius would be allowed to continue his experimentation, but really the answer is simple: In a Legion that is constantly expected to be perfect, in a Legion led by a Primarch who worked from near nothing to elevate them above countless others, in a Legion that stands shoulder to shoulder with a dozen others with strange rites and shrouded secrets, in a Legion that alone wears the Emperors personal emblem on their chest, what is a little experimentation striving towards that perfection harming anyone? that is the most obvious example, but the Legions mannerisms, culture, and expectation caused them to be tainted by the core elements of excess, sensation, and perfectionism that is commonplace in Slaanesh's portfolio.

 

I don't consider that transition absent because the first half of that book is the transition to me, they were always corrupted in some small way by Chaos. It's not blatant but it doesn't need to be, not anymore then Kurze needed to scream 'BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!' after dismembering all criminals of Nostromo and dumping them in the sewers. Fulgrim is already beset by doubt long before he ever picks up the Daemon Sword, a lot of people like to cite that as the cause of his corruption but I really consider it a bit player when compared to either his upbringing or the expectation both real and imagined by his Legion. That is not to say the book is perfect, I felt the first interaction with Fabius and it's progression towards something as extreme as Astartes augmentation was comparatively clumsily handled as opposed to ADBs much more fluid and flowing scripts, but it does something that The First Heretic and Betrayer never do.

 

They give a precursor to what makes Chaos tempting.

 

The Emperors Children at no point ever feel like they are push overs, they might be sadomasochistic killers but I think people widely undersell how organized they can be. Under Slaanesh's thrall they are fatalistic professionals, perhaps not organized in the same way a military might be but more akin to wandering artists adding to each others 'work' with their own maddening visions. I cannot think of a Legion i'd be more terrified to face and Fulgrim reinforces that, whether they are decapitating a terminator squad in perfect synchronization or building near perfect defenses for Istaavan 7 they were always frighteningly lucid for a Legion so insane. Slaanesh made them extremely unstable, but they were still Space Marines, and Space Marines that were clearly benefiting from Chaos in their horrifying ascension. After the Siege of Terra they are both weaker and stronger, no longer a Legion but now a collection of psychotic warbands and warlords empowered individually by a dark god into something too rare to live but much too weird to die.

 

What makes Chaos dangerous, what makes Chaos horrifying, is that it's Faustian pacts infest the noblest goals as well as it's most low desires, Slaanesh grips the Emperors Children from the pinnacle of loyalty, perhaps more loyal then all others. where the World Eaters were always on the cusp of treachery and the Word Bearers are pushed into it. While it's handled in a somewhat rushed way I appreciate the effort. In both of those other books I never saw anything appealing in Chaos, there was always a cost, always a monkeys paw, always a backfire and always a failure, as Lotara put so eloquently it seems like everything that can go wrong does go wrong as soon as they side with Horus. The Emperors Children start with what outwardly appear as benefits, with a slow move towards that perfection they crave with Xenos implants and combat stims, the supernatural benefits and costs don't kick in until much later when things start rapidly escalating out of control and that is when Chaos slips them the bill. What is even better then that? They don't care, they happily pay the cost, and they are willing to pay more, the horror is slow and creeping, even mundane at first, but then rapidly exceeds many other novels with the characters not so much as noticing because they are acclimated to it.

 

The path to Chaos is not one step, it is a billion, more so for the Emperors Children. I think nothing in the Horus Heresy is as unnerving as the reveal in the Reflection Crack'd because it confirms something we've all been told by the setting but never believed: No one who is touched by Chaos can ever truly escape it.

 

Best of all a lot of them don't know what Chaos even is during the whole ordeal, Slaanesh's name is not even uttered once except to Fulgrim and only in Fulgrims mind(Only thrice in Angel Exteriminatus, and never in Reflection Crack'd.), Chaos is not so unsubtle as to brand your forehead, it makes you paint the symbols without knowing what they mean, say the words without understanding why you speak them, push you towards something you cannot comprehend but desperately want, and Slaanesh has always been the most dangerous Chaos God to me because no one does it better then s/he does.

 

I much prefer ADBs dialogue and more pleasing presentation, but whether they were intended or not I loved those ideas in Graham Mcneils Emperors Children books.

[Roomsky]

cool stuff

 

Awesome post! Though I'm still leaning somewhat towards their fall being a smidge too rapid, your post definitely made me appreciate Graham's little arc than I did before.

 

The only thing I disagree with is The First Heretic and Betrayer handling chaos more clumsily. Chaos is a horrific, multifaceted thing, and it has more ways of getting you than willful indoctrination. Lorgar and the Word Bearers don't really like chaos, at least, Argel Tal certainly doesn't. They follow chaos because its the truth. Its a brutal, monstrous truth, but its the truth nonetheless and to them it would be idiotic and irresponsible to choose a comforting lie over painful reality. Chaos used a different tactic, Lorgar's seduction was not through temptation, but by giving him what he wanted, and the answers he sought. A very Tzeentchian corruption, I think.

 

As for Angron, I think that's just how Khorne rolls. You don't need to be aware of Khorne's influence to have it drive you, heck, I doubt the World Eaters gave two :cusss about Khorne before Angron ascended, and even afterwards their legion was reluctant to embrace that which turned their primarch into an even less controllable rage-machine. But they had no choice, they fought and killed to much, they revelled in battle too much. Chaos doesn't need you to accept it in the traditional sense, and doesn't need a willful acknowledgement of its presence. The God of Killing took the World Eaters because they killed a whole lot. He didn't even need to tempt them, they were already dancing to his tune.

[Loesh]

 

cool stuff

 

Awesome post! Though I'm still leaning somewhat towards their fall being a smidge too rapid, your post definitely made me appreciate Graham's little arc than I did before.

 

The only thing I disagree with is The First Heretic and Betrayer handling chaos more clumsily. Chaos is a horrific, multifaceted thing, and it has more ways of getting you than willful indoctrination. Lorgar and the Word Bearers don't really like chaos, at least, Argel Tal certainly doesn't. They follow chaos because its the truth. Its a brutal, monstrous truth, but its the truth nonetheless and to them it would be idiotic and irresponsible to choose a comforting lie over painful reality. Chaos used a different tactic, Lorgar's seduction was not through temptation, but by giving him what he wanted, and the answers he sought. A very Tzeentchian corruption, I think.

 

As for Angron, I think that's just how Khorne rolls. You don't need to be aware of Khorne's influence to have it drive you, heck, I doubt the World Eaters gave two :cusss about Khorne before Angron ascended, and even afterwards their legion was reluctant to embrace that which turned their primarch into an even less controllable rage-machine. But they had no choice, they fought and killed to much, they revelled in battle too much. Chaos doesn't need you to accept it in the traditional sense, and doesn't need a willful acknowledgement of its presence. The God of Killing took the World Eaters because they killed a whole lot. He didn't even need to tempt them, they were already dancing to his tune.

 

 

My point wasn't necessarily that ADB's books were clumsy per say, they weren't, but by and large they didn't show how Chaos operates at it's most menacing.  Grabbing the weak willed, the exiled, the abandoned, is childs play, it was Chaos preying on beings who never felt at home and were often regarded as failures. Something that seems intentional, Lorgar and Angron are very obviously similar in that respect. It's handled very well, but it doesn't show why you should fear the Dark Gods.

 

It is not the corrupting trickster forcing a man to beg for aid after cursing his life, it is not Chaos exploiting weak and crippled individuals to serve it's ends, they are the obvious ones, the ones who we always knew would flock to the Dark Ones call. No, it is a Ruinious Power ascending Gods throne and grabbing one of his favored Angels through no force of arms but the darkness in his heart. That is what makes Fulgrim a million more times frightening then Chaos in either of those books, the inescapably and reach is horrifying in a very cerebral way.  

[HeritorA]

I find that interesting Phoebus, as I actually think that Fulgrim, Reflection Crack'd, and Angel Exterminatus show Chaos corruption as well...perhaps even better then...the First Heretic, though that in part is because of the Legion and their unique place within the Warhammer universe. This might get a little bit ranty because i'v got a lot of thoughts on it.

 

No one fell as far, or as hard, as the Emperors Children. The Word Bearers were the first to willingly start the path of corruption but the Emperors Children were for all intents and purpose the first actual Chaos Space Marines. This is because, in part, their corruption had already begun long before Fulgrim ever knew what Slaanesh was called.

 

Often it's asked why in the beginning of Fulgrim a devil in plain sight like Fabius would be allowed to continue his experimentation, but really the answer is simple: In a Legion that is constantly expected to be perfect, in a Legion led by a Primarch who worked from near nothing to elevate them above countless others, in a Legion that stands shoulder to shoulder with a dozen others with strange rites and shrouded secrets, in a Legion that alone wears the Emperors personal emblem on their chest, what is a little experimentation striving towards that perfection harming anyone? that is the most obvious example, but the Legions mannerisms, culture, and expectation caused them to be tainted by the core elements of excess, sensation, and perfectionism that is commonplace in Slaanesh's portfolio.

 

I don't consider that transition absent because the first half of that book is the transition to me, they were always corrupted in some small way by Chaos. It's not blatant but it doesn't need to be, not anymore then Kurze needed to scream 'BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!' after dismembering all criminals of Nostromo and dumping them in the sewers. Fulgrim is already beset by doubt long before he ever picks up the Daemon Sword, a lot of people like to cite that as the cause of his corruption but I really consider it a bit player when compared to either his upbringing or the expectation both real and imagined by his Legion. That is not to say the book is perfect, I felt the first interaction with Fabius and it's progression towards something as extreme as Astartes augmentation was comparatively clumsily handled as opposed to ADBs much more fluid and flowing scripts, but it does something that The First Heretic and Betrayer never do.

 

They give a precursor to what makes Chaos tempting.

 

The Emperors Children at no point ever feel like they are push overs, they might be sadomasochistic killers but I think people widely undersell how organized they can be. Under Slaanesh's thrall they are fatalistic professionals, perhaps not organized in the same way a military might be but more akin to wandering artists adding to each others 'work' with their own maddening visions. I cannot think of a Legion i'd be more terrified to face and Fulgrim reinforces that, whether they are decapitating a terminator squad in perfect synchronization or building near perfect defenses for Istaavan 7 they were always frighteningly lucid for a Legion so insane. Slaanesh made them extremely unstable, but they were still Space Marines, and Space Marines that were clearly benefiting from Chaos in their horrifying ascension. After the Siege of Terra they are both weaker and stronger, no longer a Legion but now a collection of psychotic warbands and warlords empowered individually by a dark god into something too rare to live but much too weird to die.

 

What makes Chaos dangerous, what makes Chaos horrifying, is that it's Faustian pacts infest the noblest goals as well as it's most low desires, Slaanesh grips the Emperors Children from the pinnacle of loyalty, perhaps more loyal then all others. where the World Eaters were always on the cusp of treachery and the Word Bearers are pushed into it. While it's handled in a somewhat rushed way I appreciate the effort. In both of those other books I never saw anything appealing in Chaos, there was always a cost, always a monkeys paw, always a backfire and always a failure, as Lotara put so eloquently it seems like everything that can go wrong does go wrong as soon as they side with Horus. The Emperors Children start with what outwardly appear as benefits, with a slow move towards that perfection they crave with Xenos implants and combat stims, the supernatural benefits and costs don't kick in until much later when things start rapidly escalating out of control and that is when Chaos slips them the bill. What is even better then that? They don't care, they happily pay the cost, and they are willing to pay more, the horror is slow and creeping, even mundane at first, but then rapidly exceeds many other novels with the characters not so much as noticing because they are acclimated to it.

 

The path to Chaos is not one step, it is a billion, more so for the Emperors Children. I think nothing in the Horus Heresy is as unnerving as the reveal in the Reflection Crack'd because it confirms something we've all been told by the setting but never believed: No one who is touched by Chaos can ever truly escape it.

 

Best of all a lot of them don't know what Chaos even is during the whole ordeal, Slaanesh's name is not even uttered once except to Fulgrim and only in Fulgrims mind(Only thrice in Angel Exteriminatus, and never in Reflection Crack'd.), Chaos is not so unsubtle as to brand your forehead, it makes you paint the symbols without knowing what they mean, say the words without understanding why you speak them, push you towards something you cannot comprehend but desperately want, and Slaanesh has always been the most dangerous Chaos God to me because no one does it better then s/he does.

 

I much prefer ADBs dialogue and more pleasing presentation, but whether they were intended or not I loved those ideas in Graham Mcneils Emperors Children books.

Totally agree with anything  you said

[bluntblade]

I find that interesting Phoebus, as I actually think that Fulgrim, Reflection Crack'd, and Angel Exterminatus show Chaos corruption as well...perhaps even better then...the First Heretic, though that in part is because of the Legion and their unique place within the Warhammer universe. This might get a little bit ranty because i'v got a lot of thoughts on it.

 

No one fell as far, or as hard, as the Emperors Children. The Word Bearers were the first to willingly start the path of corruption but the Emperors Children were for all intents and purpose the first actual Chaos Space Marines. This is because, in part, their corruption had already begun long before Fulgrim ever knew what Slaanesh was called.

 

Often it's asked why in the beginning of Fulgrim a devil in plain sight like Fabius would be allowed to continue his experimentation, but really the answer is simple: In a Legion that is constantly expected to be perfect, in a Legion led by a Primarch who worked from near nothing to elevate them above countless others, in a Legion that stands shoulder to shoulder with a dozen others with strange rites and shrouded secrets, in a Legion that alone wears the Emperors personal emblem on their chest, what is a little experimentation striving towards that perfection harming anyone? that is the most obvious example, but the Legions mannerisms, culture, and expectation caused them to be tainted by the core elements of excess, sensation, and perfectionism that is commonplace in Slaanesh's portfolio.

 

I don't consider that transition absent because the first half of that book is the transition to me, they were always corrupted in some small way by Chaos. It's not blatant but it doesn't need to be, not anymore then Kurze needed to scream 'BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!' after dismembering all criminals of Nostromo and dumping them in the sewers. Fulgrim is already beset by doubt long before he ever picks up the Daemon Sword, a lot of people like to cite that as the cause of his corruption but I really consider it a bit player when compared to either his upbringing or the expectation both real and imagined by his Legion. That is not to say the book is perfect, I felt the first interaction with Fabius and it's progression towards something as extreme as Astartes augmentation was comparatively clumsily handled as opposed to ADBs much more fluid and flowing scripts, but it does something that The First Heretic and Betrayer never do.

 

They give a precursor to what makes Chaos tempting.

 

The Emperors Children at no point ever feel like they are push overs, they might be sadomasochistic killers but I think people widely undersell how organized they can be. Under Slaanesh's thrall they are fatalistic professionals, perhaps not organized in the same way a military might be but more akin to wandering artists adding to each others 'work' with their own maddening visions. I cannot think of a Legion i'd be more terrified to face and Fulgrim reinforces that, whether they are decapitating a terminator squad in perfect synchronization or building near perfect defenses for Istaavan 7 they were always frighteningly lucid for a Legion so insane. Slaanesh made them extremely unstable, but they were still Space Marines, and Space Marines that were clearly benefiting from Chaos in their horrifying ascension. After the Siege of Terra they are both weaker and stronger, no longer a Legion but now a collection of psychotic warbands and warlords empowered individually by a dark god into something too rare to live but much too weird to die.

 

What makes Chaos dangerous, what makes Chaos horrifying, is that it's Faustian pacts infest the noblest goals as well as it's most low desires, Slaanesh grips the Emperors Children from the pinnacle of loyalty, perhaps more loyal then all others. where the World Eaters were always on the cusp of treachery and the Word Bearers are pushed into it. While it's handled in a somewhat rushed way I appreciate the effort. In both of those other books I never saw anything appealing in Chaos, there was always a cost, always a monkeys paw, always a backfire and always a failure, as Lotara put so eloquently it seems like everything that can go wrong does go wrong as soon as they side with Horus. The Emperors Children start with what outwardly appear as benefits, with a slow move towards that perfection they crave with Xenos implants and combat stims, the supernatural benefits and costs don't kick in until much later when things start rapidly escalating out of control and that is when Chaos slips them the bill. What is even better then that? They don't care, they happily pay the cost, and they are willing to pay more, the horror is slow and creeping, even mundane at first, but then rapidly exceeds many other novels with the characters not so much as noticing because they are acclimated to it.

 

The path to Chaos is not one step, it is a billion, more so for the Emperors Children. I think nothing in the Horus Heresy is as unnerving as the reveal in the Reflection Crack'd because it confirms something we've all been told by the setting but never believed: No one who is touched by Chaos can ever truly escape it.

 

Best of all a lot of them don't know what Chaos even is during the whole ordeal, Slaanesh's name is not even uttered once except to Fulgrim and only in Fulgrims mind(Only thrice in Angel Exteriminatus, and never in Reflection Crack'd.), Chaos is not so unsubtle as to brand your forehead, it makes you paint the symbols without knowing what they mean, say the words without understanding why you speak them, push you towards something you cannot comprehend but desperately want, and Slaanesh has always been the most dangerous Chaos God to me because no one does it better then s/he does.

 

I much prefer ADBs dialogue and more pleasing presentation, but whether they were intended or not I loved those ideas in Graham Mcneils Emperors Children books.

Nicely put, and bonus points for quoting Fear and Loathing

[DarkChaplain]

Just want to contribute re: Fabius being allowed to experiment. As per Chirurgeon, a short story by Nick Kyme (which was great!), the Emperor's Children had a gene defect going on and were trying to cover that up. Fabius was one of those who tried to correct it.

[Loesh]

Just want to contribute re: Fabius being allowed to experiment. As per Chirurgeon, a short story by Nick Kyme (which was great!), the Emperor's Children had a gene defect going on and were trying to cover that up. Fabius was one of those who tried to correct it.

 

Yeah, I actually own that book along with a large collection of other Emperors Children short stories. It managed to make Fabius multi-dimensional, rather then the cackling insane mad scientist we see so often.

 

The EC got a surprisingly good showing in the Horus Heresy compared to many of the other Legions, i'm pleased with that.

[b1soul]

About Cario, he was unwilling to turn but felt the temptation IMO

 

In the end, he resisted enough to momentarily paralyse himself in the middle of combat with Tachseer

 

It was an interesting arc

[Phoebus]

Loesh,

 

I think you're spot on regarding the Emperor's Children, the corruption of Chaos, and so on. You raise some interesting points regarding the descent of III Legion, as well, but I think we're talking about different things. I want to give you a proper response - not a "You are wrong, I am right" rebuttal, but just my own perspective - but I first need to crack some of those earlier entries open and make sure I'm remembering things right.

 

b1soul,

 

Brother, you dropped a spoiler-worthy response to the one guy who advertised he's still reading this novel! :D

[HeritorA]

We will see how Morty and his Death gurdy will deal with their corruption :)

[Chapter Master Valrak]

I posted this on another forum, hopefully I may be blessed with an answer :P

In Talon of Horus we have a scene where Sigismund is sat on a bronze throne speaking with Abby. Does Sigismund have a beard during this? Everytime I listen to that scene I have this image in my head. I want to create an art piece for this scene but want to know if I should do Siggy with a beard :D

 

 http://cdn2-www.superherohype.com/assets/uploads/2014/08/conan-header-2.png

[Sete]

Eh. A beard would be fitting. Long white hair and a white beard. He is old. Very Old. And majestic.

[HeritorA]

But logically - Space Marines can't get beards. Their metabolism should not allow that, lol