The Black Legion

[depthcharge12]

Ok I skipped over a bunch to give some thought of something I've noticed with your writing ADB. I'm still in the process of reading this wonderful book, and don't get me wrong because I love your reading buuuuuuuuuuut.....

 

Your books as of late have sort of had a "character tropization" (ok I'm making up words now) within your own writing. I don't know whether this is just a mark of an author - a metaphorical signature or watermark - or just oversight. Here's what I mean:

 

Quite a few of your most famous novels contain a character who is outside his legion in a sense.

 

•Khârn isn't a crazed butcher and brainwashed gladiator like the rest of his legion

 

•Talos isn't a backstabbing psychopath, like the rest of his legion. He's a visionary. (He still flays and such to a point where he's still a NL, but he doesn't do so for giggles)

 

•Sevatar isn't a sycophant or backstabber like his legion, he is a leader with goals of cohesiveness and loyalty (see Atramentar)

 

•Argel Tal doesn't believe in what his legion is doing and thinks both sides are wrong, in a zealotous conforming legion.

 

•Khayon is an outcast of his legion, looking for ties of brotherhood and not scrying the winds of fate.

 

 

Well you get the point. Now, each of these characters have an important female role adjacent, below, or subservient to them, but means a lot to them. Usually a guide or pilot of sorts.

 

•Khârn has Lotarra Sarrin (ship captain)

 

•Talos has Octavia (navigator)

 

•Sevatar has his female gunship pilot that looks like his cousin

 

•Argel Tal has Cyrene, the confessor (a spiritual guide, not an aerial guide)

 

•Khayon has Ultio, the anamnesis (Tizcan lady who is the machine spirit for the Vengeful Spirit). I was going to include Nefertari, but she is not technically a guide except in a few places.

 

 

Have you noticed this Mr. ADB? I'm not trying to sound accusatory but you seem to have overlapping characters in your books. The characters are different enough beyond my stereotyping, but they fulfill similar roles.

 

P.S. I really like the whole Vortigen thing, was he inspired by your friend Eddie's chaotic first legion?

[Vesper]

 

I hate the fact some incompetent dude made the book available on ebook, but I'm thankful you guys have the decency to keep things in spoiler tags.

Abandon kills Dumbledore :*

 

 

I'm cancelling my First Edition order.

[Calas Typhon]

Ok I skipped over a bunch to give some thought of something I've noticed with your writing ADB. I'm still in the process of reading this wonderful book, and don't get me wrong because I love your reading buuuuuuuuuuut.....

 

Your books as of late have sort of had a "character tropization" (ok I'm making up words now) within your own writing. I don't know whether this is just a mark of an author - a metaphorical signature or watermark - or just oversight. Here's what I mean:

 

Quite a few of your most famous novels contain a character who is outside his legion in a sense.

 

•Khârn isn't a crazed butcher and brainwashed gladiator like the rest of his legion

 

•Talos isn't a backstabbing psychopath, like the rest of his legion. He's a visionary. (He still flays and such to a point where he's still a NL, but he doesn't do so for giggles)

 

•Sevatar isn't a sycophant or backstabber like his legion, he is a leader with goals of cohesiveness and loyalty (see Atramentar)

 

•Argel Tal doesn't believe in what his legion is doing and thinks both sides are wrong, in a zealotous conforming legion.

 

•Khayon is an outcast of his legion, looking for ties of brotherhood and not scrying the winds of fate.

 

 

Well you get the point. Now, each of these characters have an important female role adjacent, below, or subservient to them, but means a lot to them. Usually a guide or pilot of sorts.

 

•Khârn has Lotarra Sarrin (ship captain)

 

•Talos has Octavia (navigator)

 

•Sevatar has his female gunship pilot that looks like his cousin

 

•Argel Tal has Cyrene, the confessor (a spiritual guide, not an aerial guide)

 

•Khayon has Ultio, the anamnesis (Tizcan lady who is the machine spirit for the Vengeful Spirit). I was going to include Nefertari, but she is not technically a guide except in a few places.

 

 

Have you noticed this Mr. ADB? I'm not trying to sound accusatory but you seem to have overlapping characters in your books. The characters are different enough beyond my stereotyping, but they fulfill similar roles.

 

P.S. I really like the whole Vortigen thing, was he inspired by your friend Eddie's chaotic first legion?

 

I noticed this as well actually. It seems that all the main characters had a token female which could in all honesty be switched around with any other (bar cyrene) and fit perfectly well. 

 

As well as being pretty much outcasts from their legions apart from Sevatar who pretty much is the Eight Legion in a nutshell. 

 

I thoroughly enjoy the books, but once you notice it, it becomes very easy to see that they overlap. I would also be curious to know if you have noticed this.

[Marshal Rohr]

I would argue against all his characters being outsiders, a few are, but by necessity most protagonists have to stand apart to be good narrators in the personage ADB writes in. I don't think for a minute that Khayon or Khârn or Grimaldus is could be considered outsiders, since they are very much commanders in high command roles.

 

 

The plucky girl sidekick is his defining calling card though. Nothing wrong with that. Beats the sausage fest or explicitly sexual overtones of most other BL fiction. Sometimes it's nice for a woman just to be there doing stuff, like the way they work in our real lives, instead of being princesses to rescue or weirdo sex prophetesses like in a Graham McNeill novel.

[Extropian]

weirdo sex prophetesses like in a Graham McNeill novel.

 

Wait...what?

[depthcharge12]

I would argue against all his characters being outsiders, a few are, but by necessity most protagonists have to stand apart to be good narrators in the personage ADB writes in. I don't think for a minute that Khayon or Khârn or Grimaldus is could be considered outsiders, since they are very much commanders in high command roles.

 

 

The plucky girl sidekick is his defining calling card though. Nothing wrong with that. Beats the sausage fest or explicitly sexual overtones of most other BL fiction. Sometimes it's nice for a woman just to be there doing stuff, like the way they work in our real lives, instead of being princesses to rescue or weirdo sex prophetesses like in a Graham McNeill novel.

Lol agreed - and yes I'm glad for the female sidekick that doesn't feel...shoehorned in. However, I understand that characters should have some differentiation, but they shouldn't always be the Marlon Brando rebel without a cause type. ADB at least has the ability to make the characters still feel like part of their legion and not, "I'm part of a legion, but you've probably never heard of them" type.

 

But the point stands that it is noticeable.

[Calas Typhon]

I would argue against all his characters being outsiders, a few are, but by necessity most protagonists have to stand apart to be good narrators in the personage ADB writes in. I don't think for a minute that Khayon or Khârn or Grimaldus is could be considered outsiders, since they are very much commanders in high command roles.

 

 

Sorry, I don't really mean outsiders like they are a thing apart from the Legion, but outsiders in how they act and think compared to their brothers. For example, Khârn is probably the best choice to point out what I mean,

 

Its quite obvious Khârn is not blind to the clear uncaring nature and the messy path the Legion is going down. I get the impression he is the only one that actually cares for Angron because of his relationship with the Primarch. One of the best moments for me is after the Ascension of Angron when he takes a trip to the sands to fight the Devourer. After absolutely butchering the Devourer and seeing his brothers cheering, he is disgusted. Only to then laugh at a small joke about becoming one of them which will lead to my point in a minute about the insanity. I also got this impression in "After Desh'ea" when the legion are trying to convince him that he should not go down, yet wont stop him that he is not really apart of the brotherhood as a whole and is pretty different from the rest. It creeps up in Betrayer a few times too.

 

Actually thinking about that brings another point up, All the characters are tragedies in the making, they are about the degeneration or leading upto terrible outcomes. Argel Tal being murdered to push Khârn to his full potential and taking away the death he expected. Sevetar quite clearly loosing control of his power, which is leading to something really dark, perhaps on terra if he reaches there. Khârn of course starting to loose his mind and what I believe to be a loss of everything he has when the only thing he really truely cares about is lost, Angron. And Talos trying the best for his legion believing that his way is the way that will save the Legion or keep it pure, not realising that the Legion is too corrupt and broken to the point where it cant be saved.  

 

This is ofc not a post to say that the books are trash and the characters are trash, only a small observation I have made, which takes away from the characters when reading them because it becomes obvious you know where things are going when you first start reading up on a new character. This is the Grim Dark future, so you expect things not to turn out great. But you know things will either end up in Death or Insanity, or Insanideath.

[depthcharge12]

Insanideath would be a wicked metal band name. Well I guess there's megadeth.

 

Also, what is everyone's thoughts on the Warp Ghosts? Are they a mirror to the black ship culls?

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

 

I noticed this as well actually. It seems that all the main characters had a token female which could in all honesty be switched around with any other (bar cyrene) and fit perfectly well. 

 

As well as being pretty much outcasts from their legions apart from Sevatar who pretty much is the Eight Legion in a nutshell. 

 

I thoroughly enjoy the books, but once you notice it, it becomes very easy to see that they overlap. I would also be curious to know if you have noticed this.

 

 

I'm sorry, what exactly about having significant female characters makes them token?

[A D-B]

It's (partly) noticeable because they're female. It's not noticeable because it's not actually true, though. Let me put it this way, there's nothing particularly similar about Octavia, Ultio, Cyrene, or Lotara, except for their junk. They're entirely different characters with almost nothing in common, and entirely different relationships to the protagonists. 

 

The similarity is literally just that they're female, and and that stands out in 40K. Thebrain makes connections, seeing links that aren't there. No one could seriously write more than a few sentences about any of those female characters being similar, and relating to the protagonists in the same ways. Hell, the point of Nefertari is that getting away from her is how Khayon evolves - he needs brotherhood, not a lone bodyguard. Octavia explicitly rejects Talos by the end of the series, after all the buildup where he's protected her, and once she realises who and what he really is all their closeness (which was never as close as Talos and his male slave, anyway) vanishes. Khayon and Itzara: the entire point is that she's dead and has nothing to do with him, and when she starts to become someone capable of emotion and attachment, she binds herself to Abaddon. Lotara and Khârn barely actually interact, when it comes down to it. And she certainly doesn't need him as an intermediary to interact with the Legion; she's her own character on that score. Sevatar believing a female pilot is a distant relation/descendant of his is a vampire/immortal fiction trait, entirely unique to him (and he barely interacts with Taye, either - he mostly just pays attention to whether she's still alive or not) and she doesn't feature in his daily life or interactions at all. 

 

I've talked about this before, in more detail: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296283-chaotic-thoughts-after-reading-talon-of-horus-spoiler-alert/page-2?do=findComment&comment=3825637

 

So , in short - I've given it a world of thought, as has my reading circle, and it's not true. On the surface, it looks true, but only if you disregard characterisation, plot, role in the storyline, and everything else. There are no real similarities in any of those situations, or the differences vastly outweigh the similarities.

[A D-B]

I would argue against all his characters being outsiders, a few are, but by necessity most protagonists have to stand apart to be good narrators in the personage ADB writes in. I don't think for a minute that Khayon or Khârn or Grimaldus is could be considered outsiders, since they are very much commanders in high command roles.

 

Very much this. Half of the characters in, like, 10+ novels being outsiders, and half not, isn't even even close to a trope. As fantasy and sci-fi authors go, I often worry I'm not doing the outsider trope enough. Even Talos wasn't actually an outsider - every single one of those Night Lords in the series thought their way of viewing the Legion was the real way.

 

My usual approach is to take a generic character in a faction and try to make them interesting, showing why the generic faction is worth paying attention to. And when they have something special about them, it rarely makes them 'better'. It's usually a burden, or even their downfall.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

Honestly Aaron, your books are one of the few things which give me hope about representation in this setting, so I super appreciate how steadfast you are on this

[Extropian]

Whilst you're here ADB....thanks for handling the Sigismund thing well. That could have so easily been something that could have been ruined.

Tbh, the way you did it

ie cutting away and only showing the start and very end result

was actually ideal, because everyone has their own thoughts on what went down. No need to tread on peoples headcanon for such a pivotal moment. And frankly the blow-by-blow isnt important anyway.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

weirdo sex prophetesses like in a Graham McNeill novel.

Wait...what?

If the character has a vagina and it's a Graham McNeill novel she will be involved in some weird sex stuff before it over. It's not even race specific. They had gigantic demon vaginas in Dead Sky, Black Sun. The dudes creepy, man. He's got some rapey stuff in his books.

[Calas Typhon]

 

 

I noticed this as well actually. It seems that all the main characters had a token female which could in all honesty be switched around with any other (bar cyrene) and fit perfectly well. 

 

As well as being pretty much outcasts from their legions apart from Sevatar who pretty much is the Eight Legion in a nutshell. 

 

I thoroughly enjoy the books, but once you notice it, it becomes very easy to see that they overlap. I would also be curious to know if you have noticed this.

 

 

I'm sorry, what exactly about having significant female characters makes them token?

 

 

Token female is not what I meant, I was referring to the fact that the majority of main characters has that one female that you would link to them. 

[Extropian]

 

 

weirdo sex prophetesses like in a Graham McNeill novel.

Wait...what?

If the character has a vagina and it's a Graham McNeill novel she will be involved in some weird sex stuff before it over. It's not even race specific. They had gigantic demon vaginas in Dead Sky, Black Sun. The dudes creepy, man. He's got some rapey stuff in his books.

 

 

The Dead Sky things (and that was proper weird tbh) are the only ones i can think of offhand. I now feel that i've been missing some stuff, or have blocked it out for self defence....

[A D-B]

 

 

 

I noticed this as well actually. It seems that all the main characters had a token female which could in all honesty be switched around with any other (bar cyrene) and fit perfectly well. 

 

As well as being pretty much outcasts from their legions apart from Sevatar who pretty much is the Eight Legion in a nutshell. 

 

I thoroughly enjoy the books, but once you notice it, it becomes very easy to see that they overlap. I would also be curious to know if you have noticed this.

 

 

I'm sorry, what exactly about having significant female characters makes them token?

 

 

Token female is not what I meant, I was referring to the fact that the majority of main characters has that one female that you would link to them. 

 

But those characters also have males linked to them. No one points that out. In many cases, the characters are closer to the males than they are to the female, too. And none of those females occupy the same role in the plot, and all have entirely different relationships to the protagonist, as well as to other characters.

 

I mean, I don't mean to beat the drum on this, but there's no actual correlation or troping going on.

[Sete]

They have a waifu.

Clearly ADB is an anime fan.

[Calas Typhon]

 

If the character has a vagina and it's a Graham McNeill novel she will be involved in some weird sex stuff before it over. It's not even race specific. They had gigantic demon vaginas in Dead Sky, Black Sun. The dudes creepy, man. He's got some rapey stuff in his books.

 

Fulgrim the book in the Horus Heresy series springs to mind actually. 

 

 

 

 

 

I noticed this as well actually. It seems that all the main characters had a token female which could in all honesty be switched around with any other (bar cyrene) and fit perfectly well. 

 

As well as being pretty much outcasts from their legions apart from Sevatar who pretty much is the Eight Legion in a nutshell. 

 

I thoroughly enjoy the books, but once you notice it, it becomes very easy to see that they overlap. I would also be curious to know if you have noticed this.

 

 

I'm sorry, what exactly about having significant female characters makes them token?

 

 

Token female is not what I meant, I was referring to the fact that the majority of main characters has that one female that you would link to them. 

 

But those characters also have males linked to them. No one points that out. In many cases, the characters are closer to the males than they are to the female, too. And none of those females occupy the same role in the plot, and all have entirely different relationships to the protagonist, as well as to other characters.

 

I mean, I don't mean to beat the drum on this, but there's no actual correlation or troping going on.

 

Its the view that I get mate, I was just curious how you wrote it, because that is how it came across to me. From my perspective reading, it was how it looked. The characters were great, but they felt somewhat interchangeable with each other. 

 

When I think of a character and list who would be linked in relation to them, they each only have one  female that come up, which is why it gave that impression. 

 

 

 

 

 

Very much this. Half of the characters in, like, 10+ novels being outsiders, and half not, isn't even even close to a trope. As fantasy and sci-fi authors go, I often worry I'm not doing the outsider trope enough. Even Talos wasn't actually an outsider - every single one of those Night Lords in the series thought their way of viewing the Legion was the real way.

 

My usual approach is to take a generic character in a faction and try to make them interesting, showing why the generic faction is worth paying attention to. And when they have something special about them, it rarely makes them 'better'. It's usually a burden, or even their downfall.

 

I also did not mean outsiders like this, I don't think Depth did either, I corrected myself in response to Marshal

 

 

Sorry, I don't really mean outsiders like they are a thing apart from the Legion, but outsiders in how they act and think compared to their brothers. For example, Khârn is probably the best choice to point out what I mean,

 

Its quite obvious Khârn is not blind to the clear uncaring nature and the messy path the Legion is going down. I get the impression he is the only one that actually cares for Angron because of his relationship with the Primarch. One of the best moments for me is after the Ascension of Angron when he takes a trip to the sands to fight the Devourer. After absolutely butchering the Devourer and seeing his brothers cheering, he is disgusted. Only to then laugh at a small joke about becoming one of them which will lead to my point in a minute about the insanity. I also got this impression in "After Desh'ea" when the legion are trying to convince him that he should not go down, yet wont stop him that he is not really apart of the brotherhood as a whole and is pretty different from the rest. It creeps up in Betrayer a few times too.

 

Actually thinking about that brings another point up, All the characters are tragedies in the making, they are about the degeneration or leading upto terrible outcomes. Argel Tal being murdered to push Khârn to his full potential and taking away the death he expected. Sevetar quite clearly loosing control of his power, which is leading to something really dark, perhaps on terra if he reaches there. Khârn of course starting to loose his mind and what I believe to be a loss of everything he has when the only thing he really truely cares about is lost, Angron. And Talos trying the best for his legion believing that his way is the way that will save the Legion or keep it pure, not realising that the Legion is too corrupt and broken to the point where it cant be saved.  

 

This is ofc not a post to say that the books are trash and the characters are trash, only a small observation I have made, which takes away from the characters when reading them because it becomes obvious you know where things are going when you first start reading up on a new character. This is the Grim Dark future, so you expect things not to turn out great. But you know things will either end up in Death or Insanity, or Insanideath.

[HeritorA]

LetsYouDown

Thanks - now it is unxepectedly moved to the top of the must read list :)

 

Yes Delvarus is just a side mention - he and his 'Secondborn' are demonically possessed soldiers that guard the Vengeful Spirit. They are mentioned in passing and Delvarus only has bare cameos.

 

So

Delvarus is a fully possessed now?

[Marshal Rohr]

I think the plucky female side kick characters are less tokens. They aren't part of the 'game party' of characters. They are NPCs. They are more installations than anything else. Like a seedy cantina in Star Wars. It is really only even noticed because of their genitalia. No new female characters were introduced in Black Legion. It was all characters from the first novel, so the fact we even talk about and notice it just proves it's because they don't have dangly bits.

 

I also don't think the plucky female sidekick is necessarily a bad thing, anymore than brooding antagonists, anti-heroes, farm boys, and any other archetype are. Sci fi always has female ass kickers.

 

Wait: I forgot about Moriana. But she's not anyone's sidekick.

[1ncarnadine]

You can comfortably swap the genders of most of those ladies with little issue. It almost never matters, although Octavia is an exception. Even Cyrene could have been a blind, young man from Monarchia. The only difference by Betrayer would have been that The Blessed Lady would be The Blessed Son or something. If Cyrene was really a waifu they would have called the ship The Blessed M'Lady.

 

 

Wait: I forgot about Moriana. But she's not anyone's sidekick.

 

Moriana almost felt more like a force of nature than a human being... which I guess is as it should be?

[Marshal Rohr]

You can comfortably swap the genders of most of those ladies with little issue. It almost never matters, although Octavia is an exception. Even Cyrene could have been a blind, young man from Monarchia. The only difference by Betrayer would have been that The Blessed Lady would be The Blessed Son or something. If Cyrene was really a waifu they would have called the ship The Blessed M'Lady.

 

 

 

Wait: I forgot about Moriana. But she's not anyone's sidekick.

Moriana almost felt more like a force of nature than a human being... which I guess is as it should be?

The Blessed M'Lady needs a web comic immediately.

 

To be honest, I'm not seeing the threat from Moriana. Clearly as part of the inquisition she learned about the Webway War, the Emperor being wounded, and casting Drach'Nyen into Ra. Her threat is that she imparts that knowledge to Abaddon. i never really understood everyone's objection to her inclusion. She's from the Imperium and knows plenty about it. That's valuable intelligence.

[1ncarnadine]

 

To be honest, I'm not seeing the threat from Moriana. Clearly as part of the inquisition she learned about the Webway War, the Emperor being wounded, and casting Drach'Nyen into Ra. Her threat is that she imparts that knowledge to Abaddon. i never really understood everyone's objection to her inclusion. She's from the Imperium and knows plenty about it. That's valuable intelligence.

 

 

The threat is that she may attempt to lead Abaddon down the same path as Horus; empowered by yet owned by the Gods. It's absolutely not what Khayon wants, and not really what Abaddon wants, although there's the risk he could always give in. The threat is a perversion of purpose, and Khayon cares a lot about why he fights.

[depthcharge12]

 

You can comfortably swap the genders of most of those ladies with little issue. It almost never matters, although Octavia is an exception. Even Cyrene could have been a blind, young man from Monarchia. The only difference by Betrayer would have been that The Blessed Lady would be The Blessed Son or something. If Cyrene was really a waifu they would have called the ship The Blessed M'Lady.

 

 

 

Wait: I forgot about Moriana. But she's not anyone's sidekick.

Moriana almost felt more like a force of nature than a human being... which I guess is as it should be?

The Blessed M'Lady needs a web comic immediately.

 

To be honest, I'm not seeing the threat from Moriana. Clearly as part of the inquisition she learned about the Webway War, the Emperor being wounded, and casting Drach'Nyen into Ra. Her threat is that she imparts that knowledge to Abaddon. i never really understood everyone's objection to her inclusion. She's from the Imperium and knows plenty about it. That's valuable intelligence.

Heh, the blessed m'lady. I could think of one or two...crusaders...on this board that could pilot that ship with an inquisitorial fedora.

 

Like I said, I am glad there are some female characters that are on these tales that have meaning to the plot, but my point stands that there is a pattern that is perceivable. I haven't read your new comic either ADB, but I see big tough brute with armor, and plucky female sidekick and I think, hmm, where have I seen this?

 

I guess, just be thankful your patterns aren't Freudian female imagery?