8th Ed Codex on the way

[OnboardG1]

Brigade is really tough as a separate detachment. I pointed up a bare-bones one, and it was over 1000 points with mostly crap in it (3x enginseers, 3x datasmiths, 6x 5-man ranger squads, 3x lance dragoons, 3x onagers). Considering Cawl (250), Destroyers (76 each) and Kastelan Robots (110 each) is already 698 points, you're not left with a very strong list if the rest of it is mostly filler crap.

I meant battalion but my brain is in weekend mode. I'm struggling between Stygies and Lucius for the Skitarii because both are SO GOOD.

[Prot]

I still feel like Metalica is very flexible.

I've playtested my Cawl Wall list and I feel like it's the most potent, and least interesting as most of the work is done in the list building phase. A very non-dynamic play style. I believe this FW will just ply a lot like the index and a difficult matchup will be anything that plays like Astra / Renegades.

I played Metalica last night. Inherently flexible, much more dynamic. Perhaps not as aggressive as Derp striking, or infiltration but NO resource is required to get that board movement working. Also the Warlord trait is very decent against assaulty armies that will have you backing up a lot. ( otherwise it is somewhat a non factor). But I found it useful enough. The special arm is really silly... my recommended. It should replace all hits, not 1.

I found less reliance on the heavy hitters, and the dynamics of Metalica to test me a bit more strategically. Unfortunately ( for me) Mars is super potent but plays a lot like a Guilliman list with a strong block of immense firepower.

That's my two cents so far. For day to day Metalica is dynamic for me but Stygies looks really fun too just to have that option and -1 is decent with paper armour. That said this is one army that getting the initiative stolen may make for a rough ride ( more so than the others)!

Edited September 16, 2017 by Prot

[Perry]

So is a Knight a useful inclusion now we can repair 1 wound a turn and use Canticles at a cost of 1CP a turn?

 

I'm thinking Onagers still might be a better investment.

[Riot Earp]

The 4++ invul is also nothing to sneeze at in combination with shroud psalm. I´ll will give it a try as a knight gives also gives us much needed close combat support.

[banis]

I might just include some plasma kataphron destroyers so i can use Elimination Volley.

​Also big unit of dragoons looks very nasty with Protector Doctrine . only needing 4+ for the extra 2 bonus hits. and now with ap -1. 

[momerathe]

Can any of the new stratagems or other stuff be used with the Forge World knights? If they've changed their keyword from Questor Imperialis to Questor Mechanicus..

[Yoda79]

2 years ad mech w8ing for a codex combined new so we can use it to play our army and we get this. Trash. All community asking when faq errata 30 rummors for something serious. This design team has failed. Cant believethey had two years and they brought this. Sorry wont buy 47 euros codex on top of a 20 e index for 30 stratagems to use in a spearhed detachment army. Rest are a bad joke. Why they havent announced they are letting some staff go is beyond my poor knowledge of companies. This is a hobby if you use it only to sell think again. I pay for plastic sure but for my lore fluff background exitment etc. Will not pay for one picturen or one cover for collectors or the company needs to sell stock priests. Wanna get payed work for it.

I read and contribute in any forum that exists. I m playing in most major events and i buy plastic as a sign of my true support. What i will not do is praise this crap either with words or with money. They should learn to work not moack a community? And i can play for free i choose to contribute time and money. Not have to. Playable with what i have and free stuff. I really not gonna give more time if i dont see this company apoligise in any way for cosnider us non brainer kids. Will not take ig as you like. Nothing new ok no transport ok no flier ok no psych ok you didnt want to change anything ok. Your game your call but trying to sell same staff exaclty the same when you had the best free feedback from this community moacking us with unplayable combinations just to be as all the rest of armies by default is insulting. I dont care of a broken robot gem. Nor i care if you got all electro priests unsold. Wanna get 50 work for it. Show you tried at least. This codex was made from a team nor playing ad mech army nor listening to feedback. Trash it now and revamp it.

 

Will not go again with a 10 page faq as codex once more.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Yoda79

[Mitchverr]

 

​Also big unit of dragoons looks very nasty with Protector Doctrine . only needing 4+ for the extra 2 bonus hits. and now with ap -1. 

 

I was thinking that, but I was also wondering which would be a more useful unit, a blob of those, or a blob of the electro-priests (if you go stygies to negate the speed bit by plonking a unit of priests up front and personal). Given their relative costs in points and the usage of CP being simular to do this.

[Silentz]

The more I think about this codex the more I understand that there are good synergies and we are definitely stronger. Having 2 arquebus hitting on 2s for 1cp will be amazing.

 

Double canticles with Cawl +-1 means you have a strong chance of +1 to hit and +1 save every turn

 

I'm excited.

[banis]

 

 

​Also big unit of dragoons looks very nasty with Protector Doctrine . only needing 4+ for the extra 2 bonus hits. and now with ap -1. 

 

I was thinking that, but I was also wondering which would be a more useful unit, a blob of those, or a blob of the electro-priests (if you go stygies to negate the speed bit by plonking a unit of priests up front and personal). Given their relative costs in points and the usage of CP being simular to do this.

 

Mathhammer wise the Corpuscarii are amazing, and i totally love the models.. But outside of stygies and lucius they seem as lackbuster as they used to be. The infil startegem from stygies is great with corpuscarii but only if you go first, and i dont like those odds:). And with the lucius deepstrike, which everyone is on about, i cant help think that is a one trick pony that is very easy to protect yourself from. Either through careful model placements, strategems og simply using units like scout sentinels. 

[lancerusso]

Given that I was hoping for something CC related buffwise for skitarii, I'm extremely happy that my five taser dragoons are much improved. Insane, even!

 

With conqueror protocols, that's hitting on 2s, tasering on 4s and rerolling 1s with canticle. 

 

With Ryza, that's rerolling 1s to wound, when they are already S8. That meanst 97.2% chance to wound space marines. The same if I have some vanguard in CC as well, vs T5.

 

Ap-1 2D I believe is the best cheap stat in the game and autocannons are amazing due to it- tasers having that is making me ecstatic.

 

Ryza does feel like it got the short end of the stick, especially on warlord trait... There isnt' really any weapon that benefits from that bonus.

 

Still bitter about ruststalkers. Why was dataspikes moved to a stratagem? And where are mindscrambler grenades?!

[Magos Takatus]

Wow, the Kastellan Robots have sold out on the UK GW site. I guess the 8th edition metagame has hit them harder than they expected.

 

I suppose the silver lining to this update is that I am clearing my model backlog slowly rather than endlessly acquiring new kits. I've recently started work on some Ork Kommandos. Hopefully when we next get a proper codex release I'll have a few less models waiting in boxes. :p

[Withershadow]

 

​Also big unit of dragoons looks very nasty with Protector Doctrine . only needing 4+ for the extra 2 bonus hits. and now with ap -1.

 

 

I was thinking that, but I was also wondering which would be a more useful unit, a blob of those, or a blob of the electro-priests (if you go stygies to negate the speed bit by plonking a unit of priests up front and personal). Given their relative costs in points and the usage of CP being simular to do this.

Why not both? Priests are not Skitarii, so can't use that doctrine. Regarding infiltrating, dropping them front and center is too risky. Place them somewhere midfield or off to the side, preferably out of sight. They may take an extra turn of maneuvering to get in combat, but that's better than dying right off the bat or walking across the table like before. After your first turn you should have shroudpsalm and acquisition up to make them more hardy. -1 to be shot and +2 to saves should keep them plenty safe, or at least make the opponent use tons of resources killing them.

[Tiger9gamer]

finally got around to reading it and nearly quit all together when i saw that the ranger/ vanguard PL was unchanged from the index. it baffles me how a guardian squad of 10 guys is 4 Power with much more damage potential over a squad of 5 vanguard that can barely wound anything, much less survive. it's just pure and simple idiocy.

 

also, no Archmagos stratagem, no transports, no real benefit to the enginseer other than filling a slot, onagers went up one power... man I'm really angry that I got my hopes up. everything looked good surrounding the new Forge worlds and the new stratagems, but then I took a bite and found out i'm eating frosting covered sytrofoam that is still as flimsy as it was before.

 

you know, I played a game today to show someone how to play, and in order to make sure i lost I brought one 10 man squad of skitarii and one 5 man squad. you know how stupid that is? bringing the core troops of an army, the bread and butter, the cornerstone, more often then naught is the worse idea you can have when playing this stupid army. and what's worse is it's my favorite units of the faction and I find them so useless that I can't play them without turning them into a counts-as imperial guard army

 

and now the onagers have gone up in PL and probably in points too... what the hell. if your going to raise the price of the best unit in the friggen book, at least give us something to compensate with. the end goal is to entice us to buy more models, make sure people want to buy models by making them not garbage.

 

 

So, i'm trying to decide how I want to continue this army now and nothing is really coming to mind. Breachers may be my next purchase just to have a little more substance and I know i'm getting electro priests sometime in the future, but screw me in sideways this really sucks now that I know all i'm getting is a kick in the usb port.

Edited September 17, 2017 by Tiger9gamer

[banis]

finally got around to reading it and nearly quit all together when i saw that the ranger/ vanguard PL was unchanged from the index. it baffles me how a guardian squad of 10 guys is 4 Power with much more damage potential over a squad of 5 vanguard that can barely wound anything, much less survive. it's just pure and simple idiocy.

 

also, no Archmagos stratagem, no transports, no real benefit to the enginseer other than filling a slot, onagers went up one power... man I'm really angry that I got my hopes up. everything looked good surrounding the new Forge worlds and the new stratagems, but then I took a bite and found out i'm eating frosting covered sytrofoam that is still as flimsy as it was before.

 

you know, I played a game today to show someone how to play, and in order to make sure i lost I brought one 10 man squad of skitarii and one 5 man squad. you know how stupid that is? bringing the core troops of an army, the bread and butter, the cornerstone, more often then naught is the worse idea you can have when playing this stupid army. and what's worse is it's my favorite units of the faction and I find them so useless that I can't play them without turning them into a counts-as imperial guard army

 

and now the onagers have gone up in PL and probably in points too... what the hell. if your going to raise the price of the best unit in the friggen book, at least give us something to compensate with. the end goal is to entice us to buy more models, make sure people want to buy models by making them not garbage.

 

 

So, i'm trying to decide how I want to continue this army now and nothing is really coming to mind. Breachers may be my next purchase just to have a little more substance and I know i'm getting electro priests sometime in the future, but screw me in sideways this really sucks now that I know all i'm getting is a kick in the usb port.

onagers are actually slighty cheaper due to heavy stubbers dropping 3 poitnts.  PL is even more unbalanced that points. 

[Withershadow]

I guess if you play exclusively with PLs, that is a problem.  After people got their heads around the new pointing system, I rarely see this anymore except with new players involved.  At least they are cheaper in points. Sniper Rangers are a decent buy in my opinion, but I'm still trying to figure out Vanguard. 141 points for a unit of 10 with 3 plasma calivers and a data tether doesn't seem too terrible, and is exactly the cost of 3 Breachers with arc claw and rifle.

[MagicHat]

I suppose I could have a tech-priest Engineseer try to keep up with a knight, as the Dominus have no real synergy with them.

[DeStinyFiSh]

Now that everything has been revealed, here are my thoughts (as beer and pretzel gamer):

 

Ordered by strengh, my opinion is Mars > Stygies > Lucius > Graia > Metalica > Agripinaa > Ryza.

 

Mars is no 1 because of pretty good rules (WLT, Dogma and Strategem; Relic is meh) PLUS Carl.

Stygies and Lucius have both solid Dogmas that keep us alive a little longer, but I feel Stygies is a lot stronger against shooty armys. Shroud Protocols plus Shroudpsalm turn 1 will be horror for Tau and Guard. Both Stratagems help us compensating the lack of transport, but again, I feel Stygies is a little better since you can still move normaly after placing your models on the table, so first turn E-Priest charges are a thing! Relics are both ok, but not game changing. Lucius one is nice to get the reroll 1 bubble where you need it.

Metallica and Graia are kind of at the same level. Both FWs are good with "hordes" of Skitarii, since the benefit most from the Dogmas. Both WLT help us to shoot at CC units that reached our lines. But when looking at Relics and Stratagems Graia takes the leed. Since I feel the Metalica Relic is pretty bad, +1 CP for Graia is the winner here. Also Graia has the only psy defense in the book, which is a huge PLUS, especially compared to -1Ld.

Agripinaa and Ryza are clearly at the bottom end imho. The Dogmas are very situational since you wanto to avoid CC anyway. Ryzas WLT and Relic only boost you TPD, but lets be honest, it is not you Characters that deal the damage and give you a win this way.

 

Regarding point changes I understand all of them.

Rangers got finally cheaper than Vanguard. Makes sense, cos Vanguard a just better, period. But both needed a point reduction, so I am happy with this.

CC E-Preists got a little more expensive, which is OK as well. When they get to swing they are extremely dangerous, and with the Stygies and Lucius Stratagems it is a lot easier to get them into CC. 1 point up sounds legit.

Heavy Arc Rifle got cheaper. Yeah ! Still, both Kataphrons are a little to expensive for how "fragile" they are. Both variants have now +1 attack which will not make much of a difference. They also got a little faster, bringing the speed from 5" to 6". This is pretty good to get the weapons into range, get LoS, avoid CC or just grab objectives. So they got a slight buff without increasing points... its fine.

I also like the price drop of the Cognis Heavy Stubbers. I always take them because for me they are worth it, but 8 points felt a little expensive compared to SM Storm Bolters on tanks for just 2 points.

 

All in all I like what I see and I am realy looking forward to playtest a lot of things ! I have the feeling I am not forced to just bring Onagers, Robots and Carl anymore, I can put the focus on mass Skitarii or Chicken Walkers as well.

Another good thing is the buffed Enginseer that is a HQ now. This makes building lists with multiple detachments so much easier.

 

But here the downside:

It looks like a solid book, but again, there is so much more potential. I won't start crying out for transport or flyer again,we had enough of this. But not adding a Skitarii HQ is a shame for everyone who played just Skitarii in 7th and wants to keep it like this. They could have just dropped rules and use the regular Alpha as model for the time being.

I also think Ruststalkers could have been given a slight boost, maybe just +1 for advance and charge rolls. At the moment I think they are one of the worst options.

Next thing that looks a bit lackluster are the Knights. They are just Knights, nothing has realy changed. I can see why they did this, because with more special rules they would need to raise the point costs as well, but by just copy and pasting rules. Especially the Gallant would have needed an upgrade, no one will ever field hime (despite rule of cool I guess).

When talking about copy and paste: If I understood correct, the copied the damage table for the Onager out of the Index with the missing statline for 7 points... come on, is no one looking at that thing before printing?

When it comes to Relics I am a little disappointed as well. It is cool to see old Relics from 7th edition getting reused, but there was more potential I think. I am also missing something that helps against psy.

 

I hope we dont have to wait 2 long before we get the nice Mechanicum models from 30k, maybe Tau will drop before Christmas and a Fire of Cyraxis release makes sense beginning of next year. But even if we have to wait longer, I think with just this Codex I will have a good time playing and building lists

Edited September 17, 2017 by DeStinyFiSh

[Withershadow]

I think Cyraxis won't hit till middle/end of next year, they seem to be having a lot of delay issues with that book.

 

I did not notice that Kataphrons went up in attacks, they were A2 in the index, are they A3 now? That actually would make them "better" combatants in melee than Ruststalkers, which is a shame. The nerf the Infiltrators/Ruststalkers got in attack number really doesn't make much sense. I was looking at Breachers kinda sideways at first, but they are significantly cheaper than Destroyers at 47 points a model. T5 W3 and 3+ save with available shroudpsalm, acquisition at any cost stratagem, and potential Lucius/Stygies dogma seems pretty legit if you need them to hold something.

 

I am stilll trying to figure out how to use Skitarii. The index had them drop from my lists entirely, but now that they have deployment options, are cheaper, and have objective secured, I'm considering them again. The only issue is regular arc rifles and plasma calipers aren't that impressive. Yeah, they can infiltrate or deep strike, but won't do the damage other options could with the same investment of resources. I don't know, maybe just naked vanguard and small ranger squads with arquebuses?

[banis]

I still use arc rifles and consider them a valid choice. But only because they are so cheap.. a ranger with a arc rifle is only 12pts now. Right now i cant decide to add more vanguards or rangers. If you ad alot of speciel weapons to the unit rangers are starting to make "slighty" more sense:).

[Mitchverr]

Im considering if i go to stygies (i have been a ryza guy since admech was released) going with min size ranger squads en mass with 1-2 arquebuses each to act as a long range objective holder, also as a way to get a bigger detatchment in the field for more command points myself, but I had the same thoughts when the index dropped, i removed skitarii from my list and just went mass cult mech, but the stratagems are "good enough" that it improves them and also makes me want to field enough stuff for more points.

 

Ofcourse, the less likely to be shot in the face thing makes the relatively squishy skitarii much better, but I still feel that the grunts are in a position of "you have to tailer to make them good" which is simply something I dislike doing ever since having to tailer lists in 7th to make my electro-priests have a 35% chance of not being nuked lol.

[Odds.043]

I think Cyraxis won't hit till middle/end of next year, they seem to be having a lot of delay issues with that book.

 

Just gonna throw this out there, I fear forge world may have abandoned us slightly on this one... We probably shouldn't be looking/hoping for fires to come and fix all our problems, just because it's been comming "soon" for a while and given that the speculative release date is in six months to a year... And there is no real backing on that from forge world... Well, call me a pessimist, but I think we might be on our own for a while...

 

Thankfully we have been given some mobility and survivability option with the new codex. Having great read the dogma rules, it sounds like a Cawl spearhead with a lucius battalion might work well. After the fiasco of dealing with 7th edition Tzeench Daemon Flamers falling from the sky in limitless numbers to flambe my poor defenceless skitarii, it will be nice to get some payback with my own skitarii death squads that can pop in from nowhere.

 

Something I am worried about though, gw has so far made every means of advanced unit placement prevent movement afterwards. I worry that stygies might get nerfed hard with a FAQ of some kind, given how good it is. I think it was mentioned that raven guard have the same or similar ability, which, if it doesn't already prevent movement, I feel probably will also be FAQed. I know Raw it makes our dedicated melee elite units stupendously better, but it seems like a leap in power that was unintentional given precedent.

 

Edit: apparently Tzeench Daemon Flamers auto corrects to teen children framers. Just thought I'd let you all know, because reading that back after made me laugh...

Edited September 17, 2017 by Odds.043

[Yoda79]

Meat shield bubble wrap! Soldiers. Dragoons. I was using soldiers for my front and dragoons from my side-s. Now as it is with this crap codex.

 

1) Gaia for troops. Surviving in melee in important as well. Being able to have a Gaia warlord near makes your infantry durable and lethal and their 3+ cover is good enough 6+ invu and 6 for a save vs slain. Units of 6 rangers will at least save one and its hat we want one at least to survive and with one enchanded tether near by they wont worry for moral either + a roll of 6. A plasma group shooting either if it is yojr katphrons or plasma troops on an enemy coming to your line with -1 toughness from vanguard is proably the best way to deal with elite alpha strike melee as long as a vanguard alpha survives. Cheap arc weapons from maul to rifle is a way to even ensure anti transport spamming your way. Not much but still. Maybe they ll make it S7 and all would go smoother. And range and melee and psych defence in Gaia.

 

What i ll do. If i take troops Gaia warlord tech priest dominus reroll 1 with 2 groups of 5 vanguard 2 plasma each. And a group of rangers 5-10 man is a detachment. Capable to defend any gun line for a round if lucky 2. This is the way to for a battalion. Survive...

 

2) Stygia - lucius. You gotta decide. Since i want gaia to defend i cant have such an effective lucius. Id prefer a flexible stygia that will have. Dragoons for screener and -1 plus and all other units i consider i need to maneuver enemy armie. So in here gotta take options i might need to throw at the table. Melee priests?? Breachers?? Ballistary. Since i need 2 dragoons min the option of an outrider seems valid with a balistary to add up. So far need to consider also other options....

 

3) Mars. Why mars because mainly the wrath or mars can provide options for many units. Inflitrators in a group of 10 are a force if used witn wrath of mars. The point is to have a unit able to deal with various issues not only spamming low str shots. Mortals can deal with many issues...

No need to pay a lucius detwchment if all i need in a paper sucide squad got it. Priest melee ones can fit on stygia and work better either move to cover if playing second or charge if first. Still the option of inflitrators witj wrth seems better than lucius tax.

 

If we go for 4-6 robots then icarus onagers become somewhat less important. And neutronagers need the rerolls. So 3 with Cawl. Ill update more when i find some time. Initial thoughts

Edited September 17, 2017 by Yoda79

[Silentz]

My list will be Cawl wall but with 1 onager, 1x3 dakkastelans, Knight crusader, 10 fulgurites for counterassault.

1x3 of the new cheaper breachers. S5 W3 with a fairly reliable 2+ save isn't that bad. Weapons are a bit meh, mind.

1x10 rangers with 2 arquebus and data tether will be great to take out minor aura characters and threaten the board.

Fill with vanguard or rangers.

 

Would like to do double batallion but the HQ tax is too high with TPDs and I'm not buying 3 TPEs

 

We will have to give up the idea of using CPs for rerolling dice unless absolutely critical.

1cp on t1 to give Knight canticles

1cp when Knight is about to die to use top row stats

4 CP for Wrath of mars twice

[Yoda79]

Seems like a breacher in my stygia and a destroyer unit in my mars are valid options. 5 rangers with arq are good but need more snipers. Dragoons with jezz or another group of 5 . Sniprs mars for rerolls or styg for depoy most likely between gaia and styg. Its some relly stupid combinations you gotta waste points on will put it in lists when i return home!!