Prot Quickie-Batrep: Renegades vs Deathguard (pictures!)

[Prot]

Hey guys,

Works been insane, so I haven't had time to do batreps of my games but I wanted to really try the new Renegades rules and I was a little disappointed. I thought this Deathguard matchup would actually favour my setup.... it was a fun game and I thought I'd share some of the highlights/lowlights!

Unfortunately I'm super short on time and gotta run to a meeting so please excuse the brevity of this...

The game was Maelstrom (2000 points). He got to go first, and his army being Deathguard was largely footslogging, with a Pred, and 2 Helbrutes. Lots of Poxwalkers of course, Typhus, and a large contingent of it all was of course from the Dark Imperium box set.

One thing I realized I missed was he had 10 Termies I believe. They were obviously not "deathguard" but played as such with a good mix of plasma, and an Autocannon. Otherwise nothing unusual in his list... a Plague caster, plague marines, etc.

My list roughly was:

Huron

Sorc

Exalted Champ (MoN, plague blade thingy...artefact, wounds on 2+)

Cultists x 3 squads (one was 13 dudes, extra points)

7 Possessed (had to proxy some Mutilators in there, I'm expecting stuff in the mail.. Vorbak)

Landraider w/Havok

4 Spawn

3 Oblits (always have, always will use these guys).

I had a second detachment (outrider? Fast attack one)

Daemon Prince, MoK, set of talons, wings,

5 Warp Talons

6 Bikes, Chainswords, 2 with bike mounted Meltaguns (maybe should have went with flamers but realized I had no decent AP shooting in this list). Champ w/Poweraxe (bad idea)

I think the Spawn were in here.

Baledrake.

My army:

My army is an ecclectic gathering of missfits from my old metal Huron (missing a thumb!) to some Thousand Sons cultists, World Eater models, and some Crimson Slaughter stuff (Ex. Champ and LR).

His first turn is largely uneventful, but he does have a full Lascannon Pred.... that thing just rips into a piece of my Landraider...... it losses a lot of wounds, but is just ONE above being in the second damage tier.

This stings, but I get away without giving up fist blood.

First turn using my Renegade 'skills' I simply advance everything. He's making a play for the center of the table with his Poxwalker farm and Typhus in the middle of it...

Now I've played with my own Deathguard enough to know that the Poxwalkers are a giant tarpit, so I shoot them from a distance and pull back my Cultists but I know he needs cards (objectives) in the mid / my zone of the table.

My Landraider moves, and completely blanks on hitting his Predator which has the psychic -1 to hit power on it (wouldn't have mattered anyway).

\

- First turn assault? Maybe... but it was ugly.

So really uneventfull but I do get first blood from my Oblits coming in the right flank and pounding something down... can't remember what.

The inevitable Poxwalker blob is advancing to my edge.

- I watch his Helbrutes take quite the toll on me..... combined with the Predator, my Landraider is down to the first damage rating, but I still haven't hit a thing with my Landraider.

- I clearly have no shooting, but my army is built to advance, and assault. I forgot something... T1, my Baledrake flew up with my Spawn advancing, and the Bale Drake assaulted a squad of Plague marines, but the Spawn did too even with a command point re roll and the Baledrake got owned by a fist and the other dudes.

- So I realized the Mid is totally swamped.... It's going to grab all the objectives, and sit in the middle and stick the joint up like a clogged toilet that can't be drained.... this forces me to move the bikes off the flank, and 'block' the middle.....

- Trying to 'unclog' the toilet.

- With things really blocked up in the middle at best I bought some time. The right side was now only flanked by my Daemon Prince, and Oblits (bikes left them alone).

- My Daemon prince alone was a bad move. he charged into a squad of plague marines, and the way my shooting was going, I couldn't kill anything so I thought what the heck and did a charge with him into the plague dudes, but wiped them out in a turn, which left me in the open.... My Oblits were ignored, he was afraid of the D.P so his Predator opened up on my DP and wiped it in a turn. (with I think a Helbrute's help)

- The other Helbrute took my LR down to 1 HP!

- So my right flank is gone... I have a couple of Oblits left, but although they are rolling 'average', they really aren't putting a dent in any infantry because of the layering of saves... Resilient saves are being made at an alarming rate.

- Everybody out of the bus.

- I think I got this a bit mixed up... .sorry. This is turn 2 on the left flank... my LR limps to a halt, Huron and the funky bunch get out with the sorc.

- Anticipating a big push on this side, I deep strike the Warp Talons to meet up with the Spawn and Possessed for a giant multi assault... the likes of which I wouldn't be able to do in most Turn 2 games. I was easily as far as I needed to be with Renegade rules.

- The Sorc casts Warp time to make sure the Warp Talons cannot miss their CC charge. Sorc also casts the cancel invuln saves power, but it is canceled. Huron casts the +1 Strength, toughness, attack thing on him self... get this, he rolls two 6's. And Perils! I use a command Point, re roll one of the 6's... it's another 6. So now I roll yet another 6 as the result and he's down by 3 wounds! Ugh.

- This was a sign of bad things... the assaults go off, but I can't damage anything. Warp Talons kill 2-3 guys, Spawn kill a few guys, but Huron does little, and the Possessed do squat. Their random attacks (thanks GW for more random) roll a 1 for three combat phases... they seemed like a horrible waste of points.

- I lose almost as much as he does, but my inability to kill anything is worstened by the fact that THIS is the main thrust of my army which I have carefully planned to take out a third of his army with, but I bounce hard.

- So we made it... now what?

- The Deathguard hit back just as hard, but I don't have near the resilience. Typhus opts to leave the Poxwalker farm to help out... by my calculations with my overload on this side, I foresaw Typhus coming in, but what I didn't see was that very little of his stuff would die.

- I still have the upper hand in this side, but not for long..... I would roll another 1 for the possessed, and the Warp talons would hit and wound about 8 times on his last Plague Marine. He would save all of the wounds from all squads on that one Plague champ with armour or Disgustingly Resilient. Then fist them back, causing a few deaths.

- The Helbrutes wade in and I somehow kill one with Spawns, but they wreck the squad in return (I think I interrupted). Everything is fading here on my end. Huron killed one dude.

- On the right side of the table I lose an Oblit, and this keeps his Predator busy and distracted from my 1 wound left Land Raider.

- The mid is going badly now.. the Bikes were holding on okay, but shooting all those combi bolters is what they do 'well'... not assault... and his Termies came down.... The bikes were smoked as the Pox walkers retreated, and the Termies came in shooting, and hitting... I survived the first combat turn, then I faded.

- Huron's last stand? Typhus joins the fray, the Plaguecaster is in, and a Helbrute vs Huron, a spawn, and the Exalted Champ.

- So Huron is the first to die...easily to Typhon, he never had a chance.

- The Exalted is put down to one wound and does very little in CC. Even against a character. The saves/DR saves are too strong.

- The Spawn dies.

- The Bikes are removed by Termies

- My Warp Talons (down to 2) + my last 4 Possessed still cannot kill one Plague Champ in the ruins. he saves with armour, and DR saves, and I can't get through all those saves and T5. Of course the Possessed rolled a 1 again for a tremendous 4 attacks.

END GAME:

- His turn has him hunt my Sorc down with his plague caster. He got to swing first, but really the Smites added up over the game and I took a bit of a beating in the psychic departement.

- In his turn the Helbrute, and Typhus had easily overwhelmed Huron, Exalted Champ and Spawn, so at this point they have rolled over into the Warp Talons and Possessed. I see what's coming so I blow my last CP's on an interrupt. It doesn't make a difference. He's got me down to a few Warp Talons and 2 Possessed. Of course now I roll a whoping 2 attacks each for the possessed, but the Toughness/saves/DR saves prevent me from killing that last Plague Marine yet again... unbelievable.

- So Typhus, and the Helbrute, and the single PM overwhelm the Warp Talons, and 2 Possessed. Huron is dead, the Sorc is dead, the bikes are gone, DP is dead, Baledrake gone... all I have is a 1 wound LR, A few random squads of Cultists and 2 Obliterators so I call it.

POST GAME:

- This was a hard one to take. I came to a few realizations: There's no point being the first into the fray if you can't remove saves, or do the wounds necessary to overcome the math. T5 is a really difficult hill to climb for this army. I was into him early, and fast, but this was actually to HIS advantage. He hits harder, and outlasts my army with sheer resilience. My army does not hit hear hard enough to be confident against something like this. It was like chopping down a tree with a rubber mallot.

- The DP was good. Huron was bad. The Sorc was 'okay' but underperformed this game. The Exalted was 'good' but perhaps a bad fit here... I didn't feel like I had anything take advantage of him. I feel like he's better suited for WE. (I just had crappy attacks at every level).

- The Bikes were bad. Bikes just kind of ... hang around. I used them out of the gate in 8th and didn't like them. They went down in points so I thought I'd try them again.... not too impressed.

- Oblits. Probably tied for the DP with effectiveness. I misused him but got a glimpse of what he does and it could be good for my World Eaters.

It was an enjoyable game... I was outshot, outlasted, out assaulted, and I had no board control after T2 which is game over in Maelstrom.... but it was fun. I really enjoyed playing my own Deathguard and enjoy playing against them.

[Khornestar]

Yikes, can't win them all. I'll have to look out for DG.

 

Shame that bikers are kinda meh this edition, since my juggernaut army is half bikes... dang. Well, with power points maybe they'll be more impressive if loaded to the gills with upgrades?

[Captain_Krash]

DG are looking extremely powerful so far in this edition. Any glaring weakness?

 

Krash

[Raven1]

I saw game recently were Obliterators put in some good work. I think doubling their shots made a big difference.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Prot, So what things could you change to make the bikes better? Similar squad saturation, different equipment, different mission focus/priority, different support? What made them bad?

Edited August 23, 2017 by Lord Ragnarok

[Panzer]

Well what makes them bad is that they have to compete with Raptors who can just drop anywhere to do what they are supposed to do while Bikes have to get there first. Plus Raptors can jump over screening units which Bikes can't do.

 

I honestly don't think there's much one could do to make Bikes much better without GW giving them a slight re-work. Like the following for example.

 

So without changing their wargear options (which would make them compete with other more dedicated shooty or melee units) they would need a special rule of some kind.

I would've said the ability to fall back and charge the same turn but that's the White Scars Chapter tactic so giving them that as default would be weird.

Maybe preventing enemy infantry to fall back when in fight with Bikes? That would turn them into a unit that supports the rest of the army instead of being forced to carry their own weight by killing potential. It would force gunline armies to include some counter-charge units unless they'd want their shooty unit to get stuck in combat for the rest of the game (shooty units usually have problems with killing T5 Marines in melee I've heard ).

 

 

Anyway, since we just got our Codex it's rather unlikely to see such a change anytime soon but I still think Bikes are more of a supportive/harasser unit and not some unit you send in alone on a flank as they used to be (which only really worked together with a HQ anyway).

So to add to my toughts I voiced above, I'd mostly play them with Melta to turn them into a fast&mobile thread the opponent would want to deal with, or play them with Flamer to harass&charge shooty units.

Edited August 23, 2017 by sfPanzer

[Brother Aiwass]

Bikes are good (relatively speaking) at horde control with hand held flamers and c-flamer in the champ, and chainswords for everyone. If you didn't advance, you could also rapidfire all of those combibolters. I'm talking a squad of 6 here.

 

For AT duties I like melta termies, annihilator preds and xiphons.

 

Possessed are a bit meh, but as someone pointed out in another thread, they can be summoned. I'd rather go with zerks to escort huron and the EC, tbh. At S6, they won't struggle against T5 and will benefit more from the legion trait.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Brother Aiwass

[Panzer]

Possessed are a bit meh, but as someone pointed out in another thread, they can be summoned. I'd rather go with zerks to escort huron and the EC, tbh. At S6, they won't struggle against T5 and will benefit more from the legion trait.

They can't be summoned tho. They lack the special rule for that. Simply having the Daemon keyword is not enough.

But yeah if you play a mixed army and don't mind Berzerker, always go for Berzerker over Possessed.

[Brother Aiwass]

Fixed while you typed :P :lol:

[Prot]

Yikes, can't win them all. I'll have to look out for DG.

 

Shame that bikers are kinda meh this edition, since my juggernaut army is half bikes... dang. Well, with power points maybe they'll be more impressive if loaded to the gills with upgrades?

 

Nope, can't win them all. :)

I've used bikers a few times in 8th, and I'm not sold on them. They seem at home (for CSM) in an assault army, but they really don't hit hard. The Combi bolters do more work, but if you're running around, advancing to tie up units, then there's no need for the shooting. I never really needed to advance them.

 

The bikes don't shoot well enough (and their access to shooty stuff isn't great). They would need an 'attack bike' equivalent with something special mounted to it. (That is to say let's be honest, you don't see any loyalist Attack Bikes in 8th... just not worth it)

 

So if the bikes assault, and you swap your hand weapons for a Chainsword, we're talking two attacks, plus champ attack (I thought you couldn't actually removed the pistol for a flamer AND add a chainsword. I thought it was either/or.)

 

That leaves you with a very lethargic assault unit. Even the bikes having some sort of charging impact hit in 8th like.. Inceptors causing Mortal wounds might be okay, but honestly probably  not enough (you really don't make a lot of base contact anymore since you're fighting for that 'within an inch' thing.

 

 

DG are looking extremely powerful so far in this edition. Any glaring weakness?

 

Krash

 

Well I've played them a few times, and I've played against them a few times... I REALLY like them. I think they are largely underestimated, but when I've had trouble against them is simply against quick, large volume firepower armies.

 

I had a game (coincidentally) against the same DG player at the GW store the week before for the Campaign day at the store.... I played Ultramarines, and he played basically the same list, if you're curious, here's the battle report:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/337804-konor-week-2-prots-ultramarines-vs-deathguard-pics/?p=4849188

 

No spoilers but let's just say I was quite surprised considering that the Ultra's have a full codex, and he was using nothing except index rules at the time.... When these guys get a full codex... wow, look out.

 

 

Prot, So what things could you change to make the bikes better? Similar squad saturation, different equipment, different mission focus/priority, different support? What made them bad?

 

I guess I said my piece above on this, but I really hate to pull them out of the list. They are fast, and they are at 2 wounds, and they have T5.... what they feel like though is fast Plaguemarines with no real CC punch!

 

I hate to say it but this must be about... 8-10 games trying them in various Chaos lists, and they just aren't working at all for me. They need to hit harder with a special CC weapon because they just don't have near the volume of attacks to compensate for a zero ap/no extra dmg attack type. At the very least I can see needing a Fist champ though. The axe is just too weak against harder foes.

 

- Possessed. This is another hard blow for me. I've probably tried them more than bikes and this codex got me very excited to put them out since they got a second wound basically for free! The cost isn't horrid, but these guys actually have a -2 attack but I think the attacks should be 2 + D3, or even 1 +D3. It just feels flat out wrong that charging into a unit with Possessed can result in (my case) 7 attacks from 7 models. This happened 3 times: I rolled a 1 and a 2, and a 2, which all results in 1 attack each.... that's a killer for the squad because the survivability just really isn't great with T4. I hate to say it but an every day Plague Marine is better...

 

1. It can shoot

2. DG aren't daemons so don't confer sic bonuses to GK (which are so 'thematically' nasty against that keyword)

3. I'd rather have the DG, 3+ then 5++ FnP than a second wound, and a single save on a T4 model.

 

Since Possessed don't shoot, they do seem on paper to be a fit for Renegades, (advancing) but World Eaters at least help mitigate the inherent attack problem on the charge at bit.

 

I intentionally did not use Zerkers. I just feel that I have a large World Eater army, and Zerkers benefit from being a "World Eater" more than a "Renegade".

 

What is the good news then? Well I have this bizarre fetish for Warp Talons ever since they came out... you can search old batreps of mine where people like 'theJeske" accuse me of being flat out sadistic for using them.... well now who's laughing? (not me... but I'm sure someone is!). I love these guys now. Between a CP re-roll and Warptime, these guys can shut down some serious Overwatch. This opponent didn't have enough of it. Though still with the claws on the talons I had so much trouble killing anything! The two saves, and T5 (even with my re-rolls) had serious problems taking them down.

 

- This list is probably better ported over to World Eaters. My only other consideration is changing gears entirely into Iron Warriors (but I did them for 10 years), or Night Lords (never playde them, but they seem in a weird spot), or EC but I really can't see that.

[the jeske]

My hat of for trying to use an army with a single LR, single bikes, single possessed, single spawn, single oblits...etc. I personaly would lack the adventurous streak for gaming like that.

 

Specially some of the stuff [LR/possessed] comes with a build in "take 3 or take 0" rule.

 

Well I have this bizarre fetish for Warp Talons ever since they came out... you can search old batreps of mine where people like 'theJeske" accuse me of being flat out sadistic for using them

 

More like a masochist thing, it could only be sadists if you make friends of family members play with the list.

 

 

 

On a more serious[but not much different] note. I don't think that chaos is made for utility type of lists, at least not the "core" stuff. To have a working list we more or less have to oveload one aspect of the game. Take 100+ dudes and do melee, take DP+knigts+deep striker termis etc The units I do like in chaos right now are termis[probably only utility unit in the codex, that doesn't cost too much for what it does] and NM [which links to my personal masochism moment of 5th ed, when I played noise marines the whole edition].

Out of the two termis come closest to be being a unit that can be run ok solo. Everything else is 3xsomething at minimum or don't bother taking it.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Bummer, I had planned on two 4 man bike units for my Corsairs. I'll squash that. I may add two raptor packs to the warp talons I'm already planning. 

 

Have you tried the Defiler? I see he is not in this BR. 

[Brother Aiwass]

My hat of for trying to use an army with a single LR, single bikes, single possessed, single spawn, single oblits...etc. I personaly would lack the adventurous streak for gaming like that.

 

Specially some of the stuff [LR/possessed] comes with a build in "take 3 or take 0" rule.

 

Well I have this bizarre fetish for Warp Talons ever since they came out... you can search old batreps of mine where people like 'theJeske" accuse me of being flat out sadistic for using them

 

More like a masochist thing, it could only be sadists if you make friends of family members play with the list.

 

 

 

On a more serious[but not much different] note. I don't think that chaos is made for utility type of lists, at least not the "core" stuff. To have a working list we more or less have to oveload one aspect of the game. Take 100+ dudes and do melee, take DP+knigts+deep striker termis etc The units I do like in chaos right now are termis[probably only utility unit in the codex, that doesn't cost too much for what it does] and NM [which links to my personal masochism moment of 5th ed, when I played noise marines the whole edition].

Out of the two termis come closest to be being a unit that can be run ok solo. Everything else is 3xsomething at minimum or don't bother taking it.

 

 

Bummer, I had planned on two 4 man bike units for my Corsairs. I'll squash that. I may add two raptor packs to the warp talons I'm already planning. 

 

Have you tried the Defiler? I see he is not in this BR. 

The problem comes when you try to use them like in previous editions. They're not hard hitting cavalry anymore. They can take care of chaff units, grab objectives, and more important, tie backline units with a +/- 27" threat range if they are renegades.

[the jeske]

A unit that costs more then chaff is not a very good anti chaff, because of the point inefficiency of such a tactic and the fact that most csm stuff can't keep up with bikes. Stuff like being unable to claim objectives on higher tier of floors is just a little "bonus". Vs most armies I see one of two thing happening. Either the whole army moves fast[or at least faster then most of chaos stuf] and can bunker better then us, with counter units we struggle to deal with . Or it has too much chaff for chaos to deal within the first two turns. And the only difference comes from the list being more melee or more shoty.

[Prot]

Actually I think the real problem is that close combat is still largely second fiddle to shooting.

 

Multiplication of specific units wreaks of 7 th ed and while it can work, it certainly is not the only recipe for success as I've recently seen.

 

I'm fine with CC being second fiddle. In fact I'm positive it always will be since most armies shoot well and sell well. But my issue is the costs of these units make them too prohibitive to include in armies.

 

You can layer several different units that have similar roles together. I do it all the time with Thousand Sons and Ultra. But if these layers are dysfunctional and overcosted, it's just too large a mountain to climb.

 

To complicate the issue what I'm seeing is cheap, unbreakable hordes of low level junk are much better at assault than 'assault specialists'.

 

I've mentioned the unbreakable conscript horde with IG parking lot ( which btw has very little duplication ) and this is more effective than a Bloodthirster, or Khorne Berzerkers or any assault specialist that you are paying a premium for. Orks can do nasty things, so can Nids now.... and the death of five Zerkers is far more devastating to your force than the death of five conscripts.

 

I think the speed is there. This list for instance is lightning fast, nearly all of it can engage on T1 with a smidge of luck and proper CP utilization. The problem is what do do when you get there?

 

I'm making Hybrid World Eater lists now. Shooting just has to be there, mono role assault units will be far less utilized in my lists after all this experimentation, it just doesn't work. I've tried a lot of different stuff now and I'd say aside from the odd unit (ie DP I won't be using them anymore).

[ChaosReigns]

        Personally I run a six man Biker squad as a retinue for my Chaos Lord (also riding a bike and usually equipped with the Cursed Crozius). The Biker Champion has a power fist, the Bikers are equipped with chainswords, and there are 2 plasma guns in the squad. So far this load-out has performed very satisfactorily for me, since the Bikers themselves are pretty durable and very fast and make good ablative wounds for the Chaos Lord, who has proven to be an absolute beast. If you combine that with more immediate threats the Bikers don't tend to get shot at a lot until your opponent realizes that they can clear out at least a unit a turn pretty handily in conjunction with the Chaos Lord. At any rate, how I use them is that I leverage their volume of fire, since each Biker and the Chaos Lord are putting out four bolter shots each at rapid fire range for a total of 28 combi-bolter shots, as well as four plasma shots from the squad that can (usually) be safely supercharged because the Chaos Lord natively provides re-rolls of 1 to hit. Whatever I'm shooting at is usually savaged pretty badly by this point, particularly if it's horde infantry, and then I charge in to finish off the unit, or at least to protect the Lord and his retinue from shooting during my opponent's turn. The Bikers aren't a dedicated melee unit obviously but they can do work with the aid of chainswords and the Chaos Lord's aura. Ultimately all they really need to do is cut down anyone who hasn't already been mowed over by massed combi-bolter/plasma fire or bludgeoned by the Chaos Lord. The duality of that one-two punch is what makes Bikers appealing for me.

 

      If I were playing in a harder meta I would give the Bikers the Mark of Slaanesh and use Endless Cacophany whenever anything really needs to die. Those six Bikers and the Chaos Lord would be putting out a total of 52 combi-bolter shots and 8 potentially supercharged plasma shots. If you manage to make the charge with both the Bikers and the Lord in that case even Terminators or units with T5 are going to go down in pretty short order. That seems pretty decent to me, but unfortunately the thought of using Marks of Chaos on my Word Bearers gives me a spontaneous nosebleed.

 

     I'm not saying that's the best use of points, by the way, and I'm sure that there are tournament players on this board who could come up with a more efficient use for them, but my experience has been that bikes can work under the right circumstances - I don't know if I would just dismiss them as "bad" outright.

 

      Anyway, to move on to something else altogether - I don't think you need to spam three Land Raiders or squads of Possessed. It should be enough to have several units that compliment one another and function synergistically. If your only land-based vehicle is a single Land Raider, yeah, that's going to eat most of the anti-vehicle fire. If you have a squad of Possessed in a Land Raider and two squads of Berzerkers in Rhinos, that's a different story, and even if one of the tanks gets blown up the others will make it into combat. It might be worthwhile considering some Maulerfiends, or if you're planning on rolling World Eaters perhaps Blood Slaughterers. Very fast, high strength attacks for beating down Plague Marines, just don't let them get tarpitted by Poxwalkers (I've had similar experiences with Hellforged Contemptors and Termagants). The invulnerable save on daemon engines and some of the Hellforged stuff is very helpful when it comes to dealing with anti-vehicle fire, and Infernal Regeneration/Machina Malefica goes a long way to keeping one's walkers/vehicles going.

 

      Lastly, if you're having a lot of trouble with hordes you might want to consider getting a Hellforged Leviathan with dual Grav-flux Bombard. It's short-ranged, but it's just about as tough as a Land Raider (although with a 4+ invulnerable save IIRC) and the Bombards and two hull-mounted Hellflamers will do work against hordes. For that matter they're both high strength so they would probably do work against MEQ/Terminators or Plague Marines too, although probably not to the degree of running double Soulburner Ribaudkin.  

 

      EDIT: Right, so this post is a wall of text already but I have to say one more thing. Prot, it sounds like you were also really unlucky in this battle. Oblits rolling poorly, Possessed rolling ones constantly for their attacks, your opponent making tons of Disgustingly Resilient saves etc. Don't get discouraged dude. Everyone has games like that, it's the nature of the system. I think you have a solid foundation and concept with this army, you just need to iterate on it IMO. Reliable source(s) of mortal wounds and horde clearing power will both help immeasurably with future battles against Death Guard, I think. Luckily Chaos has both of those in abundance. 

Edited August 23, 2017 by ChaosReigns

[Prot]

Thanks Reigns...

 

Some good thoughts. But don't worry though I don't this too seriously. I like experimenting as I've mentioned. Also taking units people typically don't like.

 

I think the bike escort is definitely a good idea and how I used to use them with my KDK juggerlord. I agree with you that they're still not the best use of points though.

 

In a Renegades list bikes with flamers can be valuable I needed the Fist for sure.

 

I still think mono role assault units have to incredible and as much as I love my possessed they have been very lacklustre.

 

I still have some tricks up my sleeve. I trying to hold off from using super potent units like the Leviathan for now and just see what I can do with a low level sandbox. I do enjoy the challenge!

[Chainsword Cookie]

I am always reading your battle repots and learning from them. Your observation of the Plague Marines is similar to mine. They don't kill much but with all the layers of defence they have, they are a tough cookie to crack. 

 

Mine have survived fights with Harlequins, thunder hammer wielding Deathwatch, Rhino crashes and more. I am almost always certain that I will get to answer with the Plague Marines. Not kill, but harm and distress my opponent enough that my melee capable guys like the Plaguecaster, Lord and company can come to help. 

 

Yet I am hungry to try the Renegades sometime. I would love to play a fast and in your face army someday and I like the stats of Huron. Like Typhus he is a jack of all trades and I cannot stress how much this flexibility comes into play in my games. 

[Brother Aiwass]

You should try berzerkers instead of possessed if you want some real punch. Their ability to fight twice is very good. A unit of 8 would make 36 S6 attacks plus 16 S5 attacks which mean a lot of saves to make.

[Prot]

You should try berzerkers instead of possessed if you want some real punch. Their ability to fight twice is very good. A unit of 8 would make 36 S6 attacks plus 16 S5 attacks which mean a lot of saves to make.

 

I agree.... but it just feels so weird to me to use Zerkers in a non-World Eaters army. Realistically I've only used Zerkers in a non-WE army with my Iron Warriors.... about 20 years ago. lol

 

I think it might be time to try something of this nature again. Zerkers did not work well for me with WE the last few times I tried them, but it might be better with Corsairs, or maybe my issue is my 'self restrictions'.

 

I think when I build a WE army it's all just... assaulty... all of it. And VERY little shooting. Nowadays there's really no reason my WE can't use Oblits. When I build a Corsair list (let's call it Corsairs because I haven't built Crimson Slaughter since GW wiped them out in Crusade of Hate), those Corsair lists definitely get more shooting.

 

This does bring me to something others have said... Renegades getting Advance/Charge is interesting since they are most likely to want to shoot, and WE getting bonus attacks on the charge is definitely interesting.

 

Zerkers with Corsairs stay elite. Zerkers with WE get ObSec. Zerkers with Corsairs (can) get a lot more shooting support. Zerkers with WE are largely without shooting support, but more daemons (that's my fault... It's how I build the lists. KDK style)

 

Interesting though. I may drop the Landraider, add more Oblits, and remove Possessed (I really didn't want to), and add Zerkers instead. I dunno. Fire support is an issue for me, and I'm also impressed with the simple Helbrute, especially with the Strategum!

 

Renegades are missing something too... Is it VotLW? They don't get extra attacks on 6's vs Imperium, do they? (Sorry I don't have my codex).

[Mekhitar]

It's VotLW. The stratagem that gives +1 to your wound rolls... one of the best strats out there. Now, of all units, zerkers at s5 don't really neeeeed it, and they benefit so much from move + adv + charge that I could see renegade zerks.

 

But missing out on VotLW for the rest of your army, especially against t5 enemies when you could really use it, really hurts.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Mekhitar

[Brother Aiwass]

@jeske, a unit of 6 bikers with 3 flamers is about 180 points, which isn't much off of a blob of 50 conscripts. Besides, damage output is not the only utility of a unit. They are fast and durable, can divert fire from other units, can tarpit shooty units that cost more than they do, can reach targets in T1 if needed, can take marks or be warptimed for an average threat range of 47", they're good in my book. Not OP, not game breaking, but good nonetheless.

 

@Prot, yeah, fluffy self restrictions are a pain when building lists. But have in mind thatbesodes EC, TS and DG is fluffy to take zerks for anyone. Specially Corsairs, which are a mini Black Legion, and Huron himself is blessed by the gods (in fluff), and he gathers warriors from every legion, like Honsou or the berzerkers that he won at the Skull Harvest. A squad of cult troops or two, wouldn't be out of place in a renegade army, or any non monotheistic warband. Of all the non cult legiones, AL would be the less likely to have cult troops (NL were khornate in origin, like WB, and IW have (had) berzerkers), even tho, they are assets to be used in war, and if they can make use of them to take by surprise their foe, they'll do (anything to piss Ultras, actually).

 

Cheers!

[Prot]

Thank you. Those are all very good points. I really do like Huron's background. Not sure about him on the tabletop yet though. ;)

 

I should paint a new one anyway. This one had his (metal) thumb ripped off.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Aiwass, I actually want to argue against your statement that the Alpha Legion is the least likely to maintain cult units.  Of all the Traitor Legions, the XXth has always been the "pragmatic" legion.  They're the ones with absolutely no moral center (misguided as most Chaos devotees may be, they sometimes do have particular codes of conduct) who will do anything, use anything and anyone, to get the job done as efficiently as (post-)humanly possible.  If any of the Undivided Legions should be using cult units, then it's the Alpha Legion because cult units -- due to their specialization -- are going to be the most efficient answer to any of a wide range of possible problems.  Setting fluff aside for a moment, let's look at this from a rules perspective.

 

 

1. Berzerkers.  Berzerkers have always been absolutely blenders in close combat, and 8th Edition is no different.  The issue now, as it has been for a while, is delivering an appropriate number of Berzerkers to the enemy's line.  T4 3+ save has not been a particularly durable defensive stat line since 5th Edition and while the recent change to assaulting-from-vehicles makes Rhino-mounted Berzerkers easier to deliver, it still means that you're getting a premium close combat unit into melee no earlier than Turn 2 (assuming, at least, that your opponent isn't dumb enough to get close to them in his own Turn 1).  Alpha Legion solve this dilemma with the Forward Operatives stratagem which can be used to established Berzerkers well within walk-and-charge range of the enemy from the get-go.  It can be used once (to set up a single blob of Berzerkers) or multiple times (to set up multiple smaller squads thanks to deployment not being a "phase" and thus the Rule of 1 not applying to the FO stratagem) depending on army composition and CP availability.

 

2. Plague Marines.  Plague Marines have been widely regarded as the single most durable infantry unit in any power armored codex for a while; as Prot's own battle report demonstrates, their combination of higher than average Toughness, decent armor save, and post-armor save (Feel No Pain, Disgustingly Resilient, whatever term you prefer) makes them excellent roadblocks.  While the Alpha Legion has no ways to improve their Toughness, armor save, or post-armor save, they can stack another durability buff on top of those defensive stats by way of the Legion Trait, "Hidden in Plain Sight."  Given that most units in the game do not have a plethora of high-Strength, high-AP attacks in close combat to cut through a Plague Marine's inherent defenses, the easiest way to cull a Plague Marine unit is via shooting.  Plasma guns, lascannons, krak missiles, meltas of all stripes will wound Plague Marines on a 3+ and cut away some if not most or all of their armor.  The -1 to hit at >12" from Hidden in Plain Sight impedes the accuracy of many of these weapons, specifically those that appear on base of fire units (like Devastators, Havocs, and battle tanks of all stripes) that prefer not to move.  Those that do want to be at short range, such as meltas and plasma guns, enter their sweet-spot range at about 12" which also means that they're within charge range for the Plague Marines.  Want to prevent a shooting unit from shooting you?  Charge it.  Problem solved.  Either they stay in combat where your inherent defensive stats rule the day, or they fall back in which case they usually cannot shoot.

 

3. Noise Marines.  Noise Marines are an excellent base of fire unit.  Sonic weapons all have a range stretching to at least 24", and they can benefit from other abilities that improve their shooting such as the Endless Cacophony stratagem or even their own in-built Music of the Apocalypse.  But as a mid- to long-range shooting unit they, like Plague Marines, glean great benefit from Hidden in Plain Sight.  Combined with the Slaanesh-specific psychic power Delightful Agonies granting a 5+ post-armor save, Hidden in Plain Sight adds to their durability.

 

4. Rubric Marines.  Berzerkers like Forward Operatives.  Plague and Noise Marines make good use out of Hidden in Plain Sight.  Rubric Marines, however, benefit from both.  Rubrics have abilities that both improve their durability and delight in being close to the enemy.  Their 5++ save, combined with the All is Dust rule, make Rubrics more durable than the average Chaos Marine; layer the to hit penalty from Hidden in Plain Sight into the mix and their durability jumps again, making them tougher to move when employed as a base of fire unit with Inferno Bolters and Soulreaper Cannons.  Alternately equipped with warpflamers, Rubrics want to be close to the enemy so as to employ their now short-ranged weaponry.  Forward Operatives comes into play here, allowing them to start the game just 1" out of range for their warpflamers.

[Azekai]

Thank you. Those are all very good points. I really do like Huron's background. Not sure about him on the tabletop yet though.

 

I should paint a new one anyway. This one had his (metal) thumb ripped off.

You would rather paint a whole Huron than fix a thumb? Sounds like an excuse to me, hah!