Sonoftherubric21 Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 Do reg Sorcerers get any aura at all or are they like termies with no aura?. It was difficult for me tell while watching one of the video's that mentioned it. Bog standard sorcerers according to striking scorp video are identical to CSM sorcerer. standard libby style statline, 2 casts, 1 deny. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/41/#findComment-4996715 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zodd1888 Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 Just read the Goatboy "What's good?" article and laughed. Summary: - New units = good - Magnus = worse, stated as don't take - Rubrics/SO = zero mention - List = Zero Rubrics/SO, 30 Tzaangors,2 Mutaliths, 3 Daemon Princes, a Shaman, two 10 man cultists,an Alpha Legion detatchment with more cultists and Warp Talons I know I'm fanning the flames but that's pretty hilarious. One of the comments was "Zero Sons" and I bursted out at work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/41/#findComment-4996774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven1 Posted January 29, 2018 Author Share Posted January 29, 2018 I did just mention this in a different thread but a competitive list is going to be Tzaangors and demons with out much power armor. Soups lists will still be king. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/41/#findComment-4996780 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonoftherubric21 Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 Who cares? Goatboy is a major top tier obsessive competitive player yes? He probably wouldn't know a fluffy oriented list if it came over and hit him across the head with the Lexicanum. If somehow rubrics were tip-top tier int he current meta you'd see rubrics being spammed like the goats are and no goats. Theres always tier-lists. Id imagine those metas are infuriating with all kinds of rules-lawyers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/41/#findComment-4996785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven1 Posted January 29, 2018 Author Share Posted January 29, 2018 Who cares? Goatboy is a major top tier obsessive competitive player yes? He probably wouldn't know a fluffy oriented list if it came over and hit him across the head with the Lexicanum. If somehow rubrics were tip-top tier int he current meta you'd see rubrics being spammed like the goats are and no goats. Theres always tier-lists. Id imagine those metas are infuriating with all kinds of rules-lawyers. Hit the nail on the head. "Beerhammer" and tournament play are going to give you two extremely different lists. I like Rubrics fluff, models, and rules but they don't stand a chance in competitive when you don't see power armor troops almost ever in a tourney list. That being said when I play with friends and the guys I play the most we play power points most of the time and aren't really tournament minded so different things succeed there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/41/#findComment-4996795 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scammel Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 STOP THE PRESSES A limbless Guardsmen has just shimmied his way back from no man's land, a scrap of paper clenched firmly in his bloody, toothless jaws. The note reads: 'Competitive lists always leave vast swathes of the codex untouched.' Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/41/#findComment-4996801 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zodd1888 Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 Wowzers, didn't expect those responses! I actually thought it was funny because we had spent a nice chunk of time discussing options on how to use them semi-competitive, and the fact that he didn't use anything in the codex that we all could agree was competitive. My bad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/41/#findComment-4996837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonoftherubric21 Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 Wowzers, didn't expect those responses! I actually thought it was funny because we had spent a nice chunk of time discussing options on how to use them semi-competitive, and the fact that he didn't use anything in the codex that we all could agree was competitive. My bad. I didn't mean it as an insult or aggressive Zodd! Though upon second reading it can definitely be construed that way. Random thoughts here when cross-comparing some HQ's, Daemon Princes, Exalted, and budget sorcerers. One of the more poignant discussions on facebook was seeing the comparisons of exalted to daemon princes, I keep seeing the "oh exalted suck so bad!" and I keep thinking "the heck?? HOW?!?!" The comparison is against Daemon Princes, and admittedly the Thousand Sons daemon princes for the same point cost as others? are absolutely phenomenal. Admittedly. but that somehow doesn't magically make the Exalted crappy. In the time since 8th has started (at least at the two metas I play in) A prince on foot hasn't been seen once that I can recall offhand, EVERYONE takes wings. So when I look at princes I basically always assume that a Prince is with wings and the 180 point slot. So when i compare HQ's I say "well what do exalteds bring for 121 or 141 compared to 180?" the disc to daemon prince is the closest comparison and theres a gap of 40 points for those extra stats.. debatable, most certainly but I agree the prince is better. (for almost 200 he better be!) I looked at the budget sorcerer sitting at 98 with an axe, I believe 95 base? I want to say they are just slightly shy of 100, So you look at exalted and see a comparison for 23-25 points (give or take) what do you gain? Generally when I am looking at lists the primary HQ I focus on is Exalted for this edition, the combat stats and the extra wound along with the Aura just make it a fantastic unit overall. either that or Terminator sorcerers due to the point drop, and of course the spell familiar making warp time and prescience even more of a linchpin. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/41/#findComment-4996903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zodd1888 Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 I actually have used the DP on foot before, as long as I've got one mobile Psyker it worked for the purpose. I can see using cheap sorcerers for the easy second Battalion, but that Terminator steals the show for me. DP + Terminator Sorcerer = Best in show Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/41/#findComment-4996917 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 As far as I can tell, the main playstyle of Rubrics is simply done better by other units/armies. Noise marines have more mobility, range, and offense, and better melee and they aren't really viable. Intercessors are a bit less firepower but much better melee. BA intercessors with aura support easily beat Rubrics with aura+sorcerer support. They have equivalent shooting due to the re-roll wounds of 1 aura. Then can get +1 str and narthecium from a priest (and extra attacks on 6's from corbulo), 5+++ and attack on death banner, and then librarian buffs too. That's a bunch of character, but they pay off and also synergize with the rest of the army. So equivalent shooting, and then total monsters in CC with 2 attacks, 5 str, and +1 W when charging or charged from Red Thirst. Meanwhile, Rubrics are hiding from melee and you need to take more units to bail them out of it. Just doesn't seem like much point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/41/#findComment-4996947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nym Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 As far as I can tell, the main playstyle of Rubrics is simply done better by other units/armies. Rubrics are fine as long as you take 5 with Soulreaper. The more bolters you add, the worse their damage output becomes (hence the rage now that they must be taken by 10) They're also OK with multiple flamers and a delivery system. Unfortunately, anything in-between is trash, and against Daemons, Genestealers, Harlequins and the like (units with an Invulnerable save), they're actually a lot worse than regular bolter CSM... In this edition, anything you pay for (Save, AP, Shooting weapons on an assault unit) that doesn't get used is a liability. And Rubrics pay for a lot of things that rarely gets used (Invulnerable save, both sides of All Is Dust, AP). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/41/#findComment-4997220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
C@BA Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 What about 20 Rubrics with bolters and two Soulreapers? DP or Exalted could easily shove them in enemy's face with the Crystal, and buff them with Weaver/Prescience. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/41/#findComment-4997227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heliomanes Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 There's so much weeping and rending of garments in this thread. All resulting from getting an average or even good codex in 8th edition standards.Do you know what we can do better than any others? Stacking psychic powers. That's a big argument for getting big units, so that we maximize the utility of psychic powers, stratagems and relics. I mean - getting +1 to wound, +1 to hit, rerolling 1s to hit, rerolling any single dice, deep striking from reserves, deep striking AGAIN even from combat, -1 to hit, 4++/3++, siphoning command points - and I haven't even gotten into the mutalith and tzaangor stuff.I'm sorry that we didn't get an equivalent of a Horus Heresy book too, but did you honestly expect it? If you want to play with cults, khenetai blades, magister templi and osiron dreads, they haven't gone anywhere - 30k is there for you. 8th ed 40k is a whole different beast, for good and ill.I'll play my army with a big blob of teleporting rubrics supported by loads of Scarab Occult termies, sorcerers and daemons, and I expect it to do quite well with all the shenanigans we've gotten access to now. The Occult termies are some of the best costed terminators in the entire game, and again, they have access to tons of buffs, now even cast by their aspiring sorcerers. And I'll expect GW to keep releasing new models and rules after the big codex push is done and everyone have gotten access to some more playing cards. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/41/#findComment-4997238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nym Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 What about 20 Rubrics with bolters and two Soulreapers? DP or Exalted could easily shove them in enemy's face with the Crystal, and buff them with Weaver/Prescience. If you use Prescience on them, they have the same damage-per-point output as a 5-men Rubric squad WITHOUT Prescience (roughly 0.0225 damage per point vs MEQ). The pros : they get more mileage out of Weaver of fates, Glamour of Tzeentch, the Webway stratagem and the Dark Matter Crystal The cons : they require more support (screening, buffing, relic), have less board coverage, less Psychic powers, big Moral issues and give less CP HOWEVER, until our codex gets FAQd (if it ever happens), 5-men Rubric squads can't take a Soulreaper Cannon, so 20-men squads might well be the way to go. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/41/#findComment-4997336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Is that a termi with familiar?I don't know cost on familiar yet, can't see it being too expensive.9 points if I recall correctly Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/41/#findComment-4997346 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoomWolf Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 What about 20 Rubrics with bolters and two Soulreapers? DP or Exalted could easily shove them in enemy's face with the Crystal, and buff them with Weaver/Prescience. If you use Prescience on them, they have the same damage-per-point output as a 5-men Rubric squad WITHOUT Prescience (roughly 0.0225 damage per point vs MEQ). The pros : they get more mileage out of Weaver of fates, Glamour of Tzeentch, the Webway stratagem and the Dark Matter Crystal The cons : they require more support (screening, buffing, relic), have less board coverage, less Psychic powers, big Moral issues and give less CP HOWEVER, until our codex gets FAQd (if it ever happens), 5-men Rubric squads can't take a Soulreaper Cannon, so 20-men squads might well be the way to go. That...doesn't sound right. a large number (therefor less sarge tax) with heavy weapons is exactly as effective as a minimal squad with no heavies and a larger portion of it's points in tax? Care to share the math behind this? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/41/#findComment-4997396 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nym Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 That...doesn't sound right. a large number (therefor less sarge tax) with heavy weapons is exactly as effective as a minimal squad with no heavies and a larger portion of it's points in tax? Care to share the math behind this? I should have mentionned that I was comparing 20 Rubrics with 2 Soulreapers to 5 Rubrics with 1 Soulreaper (and both squads with RR1), forgive me. As for the maths (without Aura, at 24") 20 Rubrics (2 SR, Prescience) : 17 bolters shots, 14 hits, 7 wounds, 4.72 unsaved + 8 Soulreaper shots, 6.66 hits, 4.44 wounds, 3.7 unsaved = 8,42/433 = 0.01944 5 Rubrics (1 SR, no Prescience) : 3 bolters shots, 2 hits, 1 wound, 0.66 unsaved + 4 Soulreaer shots, 2.66 hits, 1.77 wounds, 1.48 unsaved = 0.01789 My first maths was wrong because with Aura I get 0.02268 for the 20 Rubrics and 0.02087 for the 5 Rubrics. Anyway, 20 Rubrics deal roughly 8.5% more damage-per-point than MSU squads, but require Prescience. Without it, the large squad's damage-per-point drops to 0.0155 (-15% compared to MSU Rubrics). But as I pointed out, large squads benefit more from stratagems (VotLW comes to mind), so it's not clear-cut. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/41/#findComment-4997465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
C@BA Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 That...doesn't sound right. a large number (therefor less sarge tax) with heavy weapons is exactly as effective as a minimal squad with no heavies and a larger portion of it's points in tax? Care to share the math behind this? I should have mentionned that I was comparing 20 Rubrics with 2 Soulreapers to 5 Rubrics with 1 Soulreaper (and both squads with RR1), forgive me. As for the maths (without Aura, at 24") 20 Rubrics (2 SR, Prescience) : 17 bolters shots, 14 hits, 7 wounds, 4.72 unsaved + 8 Soulreaper shots, 6.66 hits, 4.44 wounds, 3.7 unsaved = 8,42/433 = 0.01944 5 Rubrics (1 SR, no Prescience) : 3 bolters shots, 2 hits, 1 wound, 0.66 unsaved + 4 Soulreaer shots, 2.66 hits, 1.77 wounds, 1.48 unsaved = 0.01789 My first maths was wrong because with Aura I get 0.02268 for the 20 Rubrics and 0.02087 for the 5 Rubrics. Anyway, 20 Rubrics deal roughly 8.5% more damage-per-point than MSU squads, but require Prescience. Without it, the large squad's damage-per-point drops to 0.0155 (-15% compared to MSU Rubrics). But as I pointed out, large squads benefit more from stratagems (VotLW comes to mind), so it's not clear-cut. And, also, we have Crystal now, so, after dealing with opponent's Deep Strike, we can jump right into his deployment zone and drop a squad of Scarabs nearby, for good measure. At close range, with Prescience, that's a lot of Inferno bolts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/41/#findComment-4997469 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoomWolf Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 That...doesn't sound right. a large number (therefor less sarge tax) with heavy weapons is exactly as effective as a minimal squad with no heavies and a larger portion of it's points in tax? Care to share the math behind this? I should have mentionned that I was comparing 20 Rubrics with 2 Soulreapers to 5 Rubrics with 1 Soulreaper (and both squads with RR1), forgive me. As for the maths (without Aura, at 24") 20 Rubrics (2 SR, Prescience) : 17 bolters shots, 14 hits, 7 wounds, 4.72 unsaved + 8 Soulreaper shots, 6.66 hits, 4.44 wounds, 3.7 unsaved = 8,42/433 = 0.01944 5 Rubrics (1 SR, no Prescience) : 3 bolters shots, 2 hits, 1 wound, 0.66 unsaved + 4 Soulreaer shots, 2.66 hits, 1.77 wounds, 1.48 unsaved = 0.01789 My first maths was wrong because with Aura I get 0.02268 for the 20 Rubrics and 0.02087 for the 5 Rubrics. Anyway, 20 Rubrics deal roughly 8.5% more damage-per-point than MSU squads, but require Prescience. Without it, the large squad's damage-per-point drops to 0.0155 (-15% compared to MSU Rubrics). But as I pointed out, large squads benefit more from stratagems (VotLW comes to mind), so it's not clear-cut. I think it also goes more in favor of large squads once you factor in rapid fire range-more shots, more prescience value. And the fact that currently-you can't have 5 man squad with a soulreaper. (hopefully fixed in faq) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/41/#findComment-4997482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonoftherubric21 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Also a huge rubric squad hit with VOTLW will do far more work then several 5 mans against anything T5 or more. (4+ to wound T5-7, 5+ to wound T8) heck id even take that bet against certain units, Leviathans, land raiders, russes. May not kill it but itll hurt. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/41/#findComment-4997489 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nym Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 The thing is : why use 20 Rubrics for damage when other armies (heck, even our own) have units that deal up to 500% more damage-per-point than our Rubrics ? Bloodletters inflict 0.132 damage-per-point to MEQ. Rubrics in Rapid Fire range (20 w/ 2 SR) inflict 0.024 damage-per-point. Bloodletters inflict 445% more damage-per-point... Both squads have similar durability (Rubrics being tougher against S4 AP0 but weaker vs anything with AP-1 or better). If you take Tzaangors instead of Bloodletters (because you care about our fluff), the damage-per-point is 0.0595 (not accouting for Death to the false emperor). Still way better than Rubrics. And they can benefit from all the same buffs as Rubrics. Rubrics (or Scarabs) truly have a mediocre damage output, even in Rapid Fire range. What Rubrics are good for is sitting on objectives in cover (and now, casting low WC spells on our Characters) while more killy units (Tzaangors.......) kill things dead. For this job, squads of 5 are good enough. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/41/#findComment-4997519 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Because damage per point is not everything? Tzaangors and Bloodletters also die a lot more quickly than Rubrics and don't have a Psyker leading the unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/41/#findComment-4997527 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zodd1888 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 My issue is that while Rubrics are a defensive unit we've lost RR 1's for saving throws, making them far less effective at the job. Nurgle shouldn't have exclusivity rights to FNP IMO, but how about something else if we are going to see that be their exclusive special rule. Rubrics in a Rhino seem to be a pretty excellent objective holder. Annoying to pop (wasting 25 point Lascannon or whatever shots), then popping out units that require multidamage or multitudes of shots. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/41/#findComment-4997530 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heliomanes Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Well, your math is a bit wrong because you won't add in the rapid fire shots. If you deep strike 20 rubrics, you'll get around 40 shots off. Cast prescience from a termie sorcerer to hit on 2+, add the bonus to invuln save and the minus to hit for good measure, and use Veterans of the Long War, and it'll get pretty mean pretty fast. Fun thing is, the block is pretty survivable, and is more than able to repeat the whole ordeal next turn if left unmolested. That's the fun part about psychic powers - they don't cost command points, which means that unlike deamons, we can keep doing this kind of stuff until they delegate enough firepower to stop it. And then we'll start buffing another unit instead. Fun times. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/41/#findComment-4997538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nym Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Because damage per point is not everything? Tzaangors and Bloodletters also die a lot more quickly than Rubrics and don't have a Psyker leading the unit. Tzaangors and Bloodletters are actually TOUGHER than Rubrics against most weapons. Their only downfall is Moral, and it only costs 2CP to negate. It takes 13.5 bolter shots to kill 3 Tzaangors (21pts) and 18 bolter shots to kill 1 Rubric (20pts) = Rubric wins It takes 10.125 heavy bolter shots to kill 3 Tzaangors and 6.75 heavy bolter shots to kill 1 Rubric = Tzaangors win Against anything with AP-1 or better OR damage 2, Tzaangors are tougher than Rubrics. A squad of 30 Tzaangors costs half as much as 20 Rubrics and can be expected to perform twice better, both offensively and defensively. 8th edition has been out for more than 6 months guys, it's time to face the truth : Rubrics suck, and to make the best of them you actually need to take LESS of them... If someone wants to run squads of 20 Rubrics it's fine and probably fun, but it's definitely not competitive at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/41/#findComment-4997543 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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