Mort's BA-Dex Observations.

[Charlo]

Honestly, that looks like your dream in terms of opponents to some extent.

 

The reapers will be easy to engage and pick off one by one,maybe even multi charge, hell a single character could nuke a squad each.

 

The flyers will get murderised by any captain with a pack and a hammer. And then you have all of your infantry to slog about capping objectives.

[Morticon]

Sadly, the Hemlocks have flamer weapons- which means anything charging gets nuked. 

The reapers also get intercept shots within 6" of the the farseer- and the smite on the hemlocks means additional hurt too.  It puts out so much evil dakka, its unreal.  

[Charlo]

Well... That's pretty grim then.

[Panzer]

Another reason for the relic Jump Pack I guess. :D

[Morticon]

Im actually playing it! Hemlocks are far worse than I imagined.  What an incredibly powerful unit <_<

[Morticon]

So, it's going into my turn 3 - I had a below average round of shooting turn 1 and a middling shooting round, followed by a very poor combat round turn 2.  I just didnt put out enough hurt.  The hemlocks stormed my lines and completely cleaned up - targeting the Warlord, intercessors a rapier and the quad.  I counter charged with Vanguard and mephy and captain, and did 4 and 7 wounds respectively.

In my next turn, the DC and Inceptors have dropped - ill take some fire from the intercept now, but then hopefully will clean up 90% of the reapers. (He has 3 full squads, and 3 remnant squads) Im confident I can take out all but one this turn.  From that point, its on to the rangers, in the hopes to table him before the Hemmy's clean up.  

[Blackcadian]

Yeah Hemlocks are just as good as last edition imo, well actually maybe a little toned down, but still very good. I usually face only one which helps, but it’s always a priority target.

 

Thankfully they charge forward most of the time so it’s relatively easy to charge one with the relic captain and tear it out of the sky. Then I‘d shoot another. But then...?

 

I guess if I knew I‘d be facing this list I‘d bring a Stormhawk, Xiphon and or Deredeo.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Something to note, if you bring Lemartes and you are worried about that nasty overwatch and intercept just set up 12.001" away and then DoA charge into them blocking the auto-hit overwatch.

 

You can double roll your charge and if need be re-roll a single dice afterwards with the re-roll stratagem. With your CP farming you can afford being more liberal with your CP spending.

 

This is also another reason why I feel the Angel's wing is the only war gear to give the DC Captain. As much as I want that 2+ to hit hammer, negating overwatch is a bit more of a priority.

[Jolemai]

Not sure how that works as you can't declare a charge against anything more than 12" away.

[Xenith]

 

Trying this next:

 

Captain - JP, Hammer, MC Bolter.

Mephy

Lieutenant - Hammer (Veritas)

CP Miner (IG Commander)

 

5 Intercessors - grenade

5 Intercessors - grenade

5 Scouts- HB, bolters

5 Scouts- Axe, CCW

5 Scouts - CCW

5 Scouts -Bolters

 

10 DC - Axe, Sword, Hammer, Bolters

8 VanVet - Axe, Sword, Hammer, 5 Shields

Relic Scorpios

 

Whirlwind - Vengeance

Whirlwind - Castellan

Rapier - Quad Launcher

 

Tarantula

Tarantula

3 Intercessors

Do you have the 2pts to upgrade the captain's bolter to a storm bolter?

[Morticon]

Not sure why I would ><; 

The MC bolter seems superior? ><; 

[Paladin777]

The Storm Bolter is more versatile. It is slightly weaker vs 2W models, but much stronger vs single wound models. Admittedly, vs 2W 2+ saves, the MC Bolter is much better, but it’s still not very good against those.

[Morticon]

Correct me if my math is wrong, but 0.20% wound at 24" vs MEQ as opposed to 0.27%  wound at 24" vs MEQ. (double at 12")??

(and 0.132 vs 0.138) vs TEQ?

I dunno, bud! I feel with that negligible difference in the math, the situational use of the 2dam trumps the minor benefit from the extra shot. 

What are your thoughts?
 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Not sure how that works as you can't declare a charge against anything more than 12" away.

Can you not? I thought you could be 13" away for a 12" charge since it brings you within an inch of combat. Hmm must be a misunderstanding on my part then! disregard.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Paladin777]

Vs MEQ at 24” ignoring chances to hit as they will be the same), the MC Bolter will cause .25 failed saves for .5 damage if against a multi-wound model. The Storm Bolter will deal .33 failed saves for .33 wounds as it’s a 1 damage weapon.

 

Against TEQ at 24”, the MC Bolter will deal .166 failed saves for .33 wounds against a multi-wound model. The Storm Bolter will also cause .166 failed saves but remain at .166 damage.

 

Keep in mind this is factored with 100% accuracy for simplicity (true accuracy if unmodified is around 97%). All these numbers are doubled within 12”

 

So yes the MC Bolter is twice as potent against TEQ, but its still not very potent at all against it. If allowed to fire at a terminator per turn at 24” you would kill one per about 6.5 turns.

 

Against any one wound model, the Storm Bolter breaks even with the MC Bolter at 2+ saves and pulls further and further ahead as the saves get worse and worse. Against multi-wound 2+ save models, the MC Is twice as effective, but as saves get worse the gap closes quickly, though the Storm Bolter only fully catches up when AP is no longer a factor (7+ save or invulnerables only like harlies, daemons, or tzaangors.)

 

TL;DR I recommend the Storm Bolter, though there are some niches that the MC Bolter is better at. Though in those niches, neither one is very effective at all!

Edited January 23, 2018 by Paladin777

[Paladin777]

Edit, double post Edited January 23, 2018 by Paladin777

[Panzer]

 

Not sure how that works as you can't declare a charge against anything more than 12" away.

Can you not? I thought you could be 13" away for a 12" charge since it brings you within an inch of combat. Hmm must be a misunderstanding on my part then! disregard.

 

The target can't be further away than 12" and you still measure from base to base. That you'd be in melee when only rolling an 11 doesn't matter.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Honestly I've never had to attempt a more than 10" charge this edition. I with being able to increase charge distances via abilities, perks it never occured to me that you had to be within 12" and could not charge outside of that range.

[Kallas]

With regards to the charge distance (ie, 12" max) - to avoid deep strike intercept stratagems (well, ones that have a range limit like Auspex Scan) you could set up a single model at 11.99" of one enemy model. That would minimise the incoming fire (likely out of Rapid Fire range of the majority of the unit, unless they're Pulse Rifles/Special Issue Boltguns) and you'd still be able to make the charge.

 

Though be advised that a 12" charge (11" move and 1" 'engage') is a coin flip (11 on 3d6 is literally 50%, rising to 75% with Lemartes, and a little bit more reliable with the Command Reroll stratagem). Not exactly sure of the math on a 12" charge factoring in a single-die reroll, but my gut says it's sketchy! You could possibly (depending on the enemy unit and positioning) deploy a little closer but attempting to minimise the number of models in Rapid Fire range or, terrain willing, deploy out of LOS.

 

On the MC Bolter/Storm Bolter issue, Paladin777 is pretty much right. The MCB is only really better against multi-wound medium/low armour (eg, Tyranid Warriors) where the AP can have a more substantial impact. Primaris (or PEQs? :P ) are also quite affected (0.487 kills for MCB vs 0.161 for the SB; the MCB would require Rapid Fire to reliably kill a single Primaris, the SB needs 12).

[Diagramdude]

Personally I'll take the MC bolter over SB every time, -1 AP and 2D is just way too good for 1 extra point. S4 still wounds T7 on a 5+, and four S4 AP0 D1 shots is quite underwhelming.

 

But who am I kidding, I give Slamguinius a storm shield because he exists for melee combat anyway.

[Paladin777]

If I really want a shooty captain I’d shell out the points for a Combi-plasma or Combi-Melta! Neither the Storm Bolter nor the MC Bolter excite me much; for cheap gun line babysitters only!

[Crimson Ghost IX]

All the way back around to is the Storm Shield worth the cost in context with expectations of the captains defined role.

IMO no. He is gonna die when he goes forth... 3++ or included 4++... he is going down to a savvy opponent after he is commited.

Using those points towards buying another veteran etc to perhaps screen him is a more useful expenditure I'm thinking.

 

So I run the MC Bolter for some pea shooting while waiting for the fight to maybe develop for a turn or so.

Re-roll to hit bonus and a bit of Plink Plink then it's boom go time and dead target and dead captain usually.

 

I think another model has more chance of shielding the captain than the captain having a shield basically myself.

[Panzer]

The question isn't whether he is going to die or not but rather how much effort the opponent has to put into it. Imo both options are viable. Stormshield or one of the shooty versions. It's up to personal preference at this point.

[Blackcadian]

The question isn't whether he is going to die or not but rather how much effort the opponent has to put into it. (...)

That’s the key point for me. On paper going from a 4++ to a 3++ might not look like much, but I’ve so far omitted the Storm Shield in all of my games and really wish I hadn’t in 3 of 4. Sometimes you’ll just roll poorly with your attacks or you opponent makes a bunch of invuls he shouldn’t, and suddenly your caught with your power-armored pants down. I know I’ll be going for a Storm Shield next time. Maybe even the warlord trait on top of it. Usually 3 Damage is plenty imo.

[Morticon]

I usually run the SS.  Didnt have points this time round for a JP on the lieut, or a shield on the Captain - so, went without both. Im definitely missing the JP.  Have a feeling i will be missing the shield too.