Ceril Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Going from 4++ to 3++ is a 33% upgrade, can't see how "on paper" it wouldn't be good. It's so cheap too. Saves, toughness, wounds and feel no pain have exponential synergies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/page/6/#findComment-4991890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 How is that a 33% upgrade? 4++ is a 50% success chance and 3++ is a 66.67% success chance, so it's a 16.67% upgrade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/page/6/#findComment-4991922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diagramdude Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Maybe my math reasoning is off, but I think going from a 4++ to a 3++ is huge bc you now only fail on 1 and 2, versus 1,2 and 3. So your failure window is 50% bigger without the storm shield. Â Does that mean you will fail 50% more saves with just the 4++? Â Over 1000 wounds, the storm shield fails 333 and the iron halo fails 500. So the iron halo is definitely 50% less survivable than the storm shield, not sure if that means the storm shield is 50% more survivable or 33% more survivable than the iron halo. Â Either way, semantics, I also view the storm shield as an almost mandatory upgrade because of the command reroll, and I'd much rather try to reroll on a 3+ than a 4+. There's just too many times I've needed to make X number of saves to survive, I end up making only X-1 saves, and that one reroll is the difference maker... Â Finally, a Captain has a base save of 3+, and giving him a 3++ to go with that could get in your opponents head that armor piercing weapons are "wasted" against him and subtly affect his targeting choices. Personally I know when I am picking my shooting targets Im trying to optimize which weapons go where. Kallas and Charlo 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/page/6/#findComment-4991923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted January 24, 2018 Author Share Posted January 24, 2018 Just played turn 3 and completely duffed it. Rushed into shooting forgetting the psychic phase <_<  Then, duffed shooting, doing completely negligible damage with the whirlies. (Killing 5 reapers with 2x 3d3 S6,Ap-2 shots, 2d3 S7, AP-1 shots, 2d6 S6 shots and 18 bolter shots).Then duffed the assault as the commander got four hits with a thunderhammer, and then rolled 4x 1s. <_<  Hemlocks rolled in and cleaned up everything. Mephy, Cap, Pod, Scouts and DC. Pretty much Game Over. The Dice game bugs me (like REAAAAAAAAAALLY irks me at times) because average rolling from T1 would have seen him in trouble.  Bleh.  Gonna go sulk <_<   Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/page/6/#findComment-4992067 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 The dice gods are even more fickle than the chaos gods. :D Morticon 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/page/6/#findComment-4992072 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted January 24, 2018 Author Share Posted January 24, 2018 So salty..... Panzer 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/page/6/#findComment-4992089 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ushtarador Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Heh bad luck, but luckily it happens very rarely that all the rolls are terrible :) Â Just remember, it's still less frustrating than playing Magic (I feel I draw terrible every third game -.-) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/page/6/#findComment-4992091 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 It could be worse. A friend with his GK last weekend for example. We played a 3x500p vs 3x500p. He lost 3 from his Strike team and a Paladin due double 1s in the psychic phase, his Warlord got charged by an Ork Megaboss with the relic who promptly rolled three 6s which insta killed his Warlord and the Paladins failed to cause a single wound loss to the Plague Caster during the whole three turns of combat despite getting the charge off turn 1. The game ended for him without having done anything except for getting his guys killed. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/page/6/#findComment-4992092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
justicarius6 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Aye, or you take him as an Auxiliary for -1CP. It specifically states you can't use stratagems from a codex if all you have is an auxiliary detachment from that codex. So no stratagem, no extra relic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/page/6/#findComment-4992173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont-Be-Haten Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Â Aye, or you take him as an Auxiliary for -1CP.It specifically states you can't use stratagems from a codex if all you have is an auxiliary detachment from that codex. So no stratagem, no extra relic. Wouldn't you just give him the relic and then use CPs for the BA? Or is the free relic considered a stratagem? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/page/6/#findComment-4992229 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 The free relic is no Stratagem, it's a basic thing. However does the auxiliary detachment exclude only stratagems or the whole factions special stuff? Because that could indeed be an issue and force on to take a different detachment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/page/6/#findComment-4992248 Share on other sites More sharing options...
justicarius6 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 The free relic comes with your warlord choice (i.e. if your warlord is a blood angel then your free relic has to be blood angel). Any extra have to be paid for with the bonus relic stratagem (found in every army), and to get access to that stratagem auxiliaries don't count. Â Auxiliary Detachment as far as I know only excludes stratagems. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/page/6/#findComment-4992309 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkhanist Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 (edited) Aye, the only reference I can find to auxiliary's having restrictions* across codex, FAQS and rules is the blurb at the start of codex strategem sections saying you gain access to them with any <FACTION> detachment, excluding auxiliary support ones. Nothing in relics section, you just need a warlord of that faction to unlock it and a non-unique character to give it to, whom of course could be the same guy. Â So you couldn't have only a 2nd faction auxiliary detachment and give him the 2nd relic via that faction's strategem as you wouldn't unlock them; but you could make him warlord, give him his own faction's free relic, then use a bigger detachment of your main faction and give them a 2nd relic via their strategems. Â Frankly though, it's probably worth a few points to bump it up to a patrol detachment etc to unlock both faction's strategems and save the CP cost of an auxiliary detachment. Â Â * auxiliary detachments are the only ones that can take understrength squads in matched play. Woo. Edited January 24, 2018 by Arkhanist Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/page/6/#findComment-4992380 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceril Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 How is that a 33% upgrade? 4++ is a 50% success chance and 3++ is a 66.67% success chance, so it's a 16.67% upgrade. Saving 66%, compared to saving 50%: 0.6666/0.5 = 1.333 -> 33% increase.  Or you can swap it around, in order to suffer 5 unsaved wounds, how many times do I have to get wounded?  Iron halo: A x 0.5= 5 A= 10 times  With storm shield: A x 0.33 = 5 A= 5/(1/3) = 15 times  15/10 = 50% more wounds needs to be inflicted.  You can see it's a big increase going from 4++ to 3++ save.  To work with the numbers as we have, how many BS4+ STR4 shots to do it? Ax 0.5 x 0.5=10 A=40  OR  A x 0.5 x 0.5 = 15 A=60  The absolute gain is 1/6th The relative gain is 33% and the, (can't come up with the proper English name - it's quite late here) effective gain is 50%   (I hope I didn't mess up any math, please let me know if I did. It's late :( ) Kallas, Brother Aether and Brother Carn 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/page/6/#findComment-4992585 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 Looking at a variation of this for the upcoming tournament in SA.  Captain - shield, hammer, JP (artisan, angels wing) Captain - shield, hammer, JP (hammer of baal, death visions) Chaplain - JP.  5x Intercessors 5x Intercessors 5x Scouts - bolters, HB 5x Scouts - bolters, HB 5x Scouts - CCW, Axe 5x Scouts - CCW, sword 9x VanVets -5shields, 2hammers, 1sword 9x VanVets -5shields, 2hammers, 1swordScorpios  Rapier - quad mortar Rapier - quad mortar Rapier - quad mortar Tarantula 3x Inceptors 3x Inceptors 10.CP______  Big negatives are no Mephy/Mephy-Pod.  But I need reliable hard hitting jump units to help with the Hemlocks (and other big gribblies). There's no miner in this either (although, i can tweak to lose the Artisan and Hammer of Baal combo, to work it in.) I've also not paid the additional 2 CP to get veritas, because statistically i'm not likely to make those additional 2 points back off of the amount of strats I'll use.   I've eschewed the harder hitting DC for Vanvets, because 3++ is more valuable.  The inceptors are not great for the Russ heavy guard, but theyre great for everything else.  Will try give this a go - or a slight variation on it.   librisrouge and Panzer 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/page/6/#findComment-4992922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 That looks a lot like the lists I wrote in 7th for my planned Knights of Blood, just with added Primaris and FW stuff. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/page/6/#findComment-4992960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 I'm really liking the primaris for other things - but vs. the Eldar and Guard -two top lists locally, they're not as strong as las-caddy Tacs.May have to playtest with different opponents. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/page/6/#findComment-4993074 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 I have not figured out how to beat reapers with pure BA yet :P With guard mixed in it gets a lot easier in the practice matches i have done. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/page/6/#findComment-4993409 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackcadian Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 I have not figured out how to beat reapers with pure BA yet :P With guard mixed in it gets a lot easier in the practice matches i have done. What have been using Guard-wise? I was thinking my Scorpius and/or Quad Mortars should be able to clear them out before I start dropping in my Assault elements. My Eldar for hasn’t brought them out yet though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/page/6/#findComment-4993585 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018  I have not figured out how to beat reapers with pure BA yet With guard mixed in it gets a lot easier in the practice matches i have done. What have been using Guard-wise? I was thinking my Scorpius and/or Quad Mortars should be able to clear them out before I start dropping in my Assault elements. My Eldar for hasn’t brought them out yet though.  Brigade + Spearhad 6x10 infantry 11 mortar teams (33 bases) 3 hellhounds 5 company commanders, 3 platoon commanders.  Batalltion Meph Libby dread 3x scouts 10 DC 4 SG  With cadian the mortars can re-roll all failed hits (order), really good for clearing out anti deep strike things. The infantry double move to protect libby dread/meph. Having so many CP lets you attack twice each turn with a unit which is really nice! It's roughly 1100 points + BA batalltion (16CP veritas, kurov, grand strategist). A bit on the cheesy side  , but it's practice for a team tourney. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/page/6/#findComment-4993646 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diagramdude Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Remtek, how do you deal with vehicles/monsters? How would your list deal with 5 knights, or Magnus+Mortarian superfriends? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/page/6/#findComment-4993721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 Pure BA, I'd strongly suggest the Scorp - ploughs through reapers. Thereafter, SS veterans dropping in - because they can take the hits on the intercept and on OW. Then tri-lock.   Theyre broken good for their points though. Remtek 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/page/6/#findComment-4993846 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diagramdude Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 Forgive me, but where in the FW Astartes book are the rapier mortars? I only see the quad heavy bolters and the laser destroyer rapiers Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/page/6/#findComment-4993868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unseen Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 I believe they were faqed back in, not absolutely sure though Morticon 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/page/6/#findComment-4993932 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 Forgive me, but where in the FW Astartes book are the rapier mortars? I only see the quad heavy bolters and the laser destroyer rapiers  FAQ ! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/page/6/#findComment-4993947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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