Mort's BA-Dex Observations.

[Blackcadian]

Pure BA, I'd strongly suggest the Scorp - ploughs through reapers. Thereafter, SS veterans dropping in - because they can take the hits on the intercept and on OW. Then tri-lock.

 

Theyre broken good for their points though.

How big are your VV units to soak the intercept, over watch and still be able to tri lock? I’ve only got 5 right now so that’s not enough but I’m just thinking every failed 3up still loses me a expensive model :/

[Are Verlo]

Remtek, how do you deal with vehicles/monsters? How would your list deal with 5 knights, or Magnus+Mortarian superfriends?

 

It´s a team tournament. Ideally his list would never play a 5 knight list.

 

In my mind he could outscore the knights. If the scoring in the tournament is both eternal war and malestrom in the same games 5 knight armies struggle to keep up.

[Charlo]

 

Forgive me, but where in the FW Astartes book are the rapier mortars? I only see the quad heavy bolters and the laser destroyer rapiers

 

FAQ ! 

 

I'd forgotten that.... Nice.

[Morticon]

 

Pure BA, I'd strongly suggest the Scorp - ploughs through reapers. Thereafter, SS veterans dropping in - because they can take the hits on the intercept and on OW. Then tri-lock.

 

Theyre broken good for their points though.

How big are your VV units to soak the intercept, over watch and still be able to tri lock? I’ve only got 5 right now so that’s not enough but I’m just thinking every failed 3up still loses me a expensive model :/

 

8, with 5 shields! Would not consider one model less! 

 

I'm really in a rock and a hardplace with my selection for DC/VV - because I'm getting more attacks and more damage with the DC (i realised that the DC strength is really in their +1 attack with a special weapon - 2 attacks on a VV is underwhelming)  but I'm sticking around FAR longer with VV.  Charging russes with their 5+ OW is a nightmare with DC.  

One of each squad is a nice idea that I may try out, but I just dont know. 

 

 

 

 

[Shiboinky]

I'm also interested in the quad mortars. I have a few quad mortars sitting around from my legion force. I found the FAQ adding them as an option for the rapier battery but can't seem to find the stats anywhere.

How do they typically do for you?

[Crimson Ghost IX]

 

 

Pure BA, I'd strongly suggest the Scorp - ploughs through reapers. Thereafter, SS veterans dropping in - because they can take the hits on the intercept and on OW. Then tri-lock.

 

Theyre broken good for their points though.

How big are your VV units to soak the intercept, over watch and still be able to tri lock? I’ve only got 5 right now so that’s not enough but I’m just thinking every failed 3up still loses me a expensive model :/

 

8, with 5 shields! Would not consider one model less! 

 

I'm really in a rock and a hardplace with my selection for DC/VV - because I'm getting more attacks and more damage with the DC (i realised that the DC strength is really in their +1 attack with a special weapon - 2 attacks on a VV is underwhelming)  but I'm sticking around FAR longer with VV.  Charging russes with their 5+ OW is a nightmare with DC.  

One of each squad is a nice idea that I may try out, but I just dont know. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I hear you man. Both are very good.

 

I am inclined to think some of each sounds like the best idea Morticon.

Get the chocolate and the peanut butter if possible *nod.

 

I am inclined towards this right now if it were me:

2x5 DC with bolters and a PW. (tho there is really something to be said for taking one big DC unit too)

A single VV unit with the SS instead of two.

 

I think the DC go forth and die (drawing fire from the VV) and the VV try to stick around to deliver the pain over time as things develop is the idea.

Seems a nice combo to deploy to me anyhow.

[Morticon]

I'm also interested in the quad mortars. I have a few quad mortars sitting around from my legion force. I found the FAQ adding them as an option for the rapier battery but can't seem to find the stats anywhere.

How do they typically do for you?

They're consistent.  They put out wounds on GEQ where needed, and even help with marines.  i use them for the non-los shots for relatively cheap.  Where they truly shine though, is when someone makes the mistake of getting within 24". 

 

When i play 1x Quad HB and 1x Quad Mortar, the HB always does more damage, the problem is, wiley opponents target them hard, and they can go down to one lascannon. 

[Morticon]

Hey all.

 

Been coming up with variants all weekend with the current tournament on the horizon. 
Its obviously very difficult to fit everything i want/need in. 

 

Main threats are AM and Eldar (obviously), but also some very strong Nid lists and one or two Chaos lists that will prove tough. 

 

I will be playing a brigade for the +9. 

 

HQ:

 

* At least one Wings Captain will be in there.  

 

Other two HQ are to be decided - but at present, all my lists are gravitating towards +1Captain, and Lieutenant. 

(in the case of the above, wings Cap gets Artisan, other Cap gets hammer, Lieut gets Veritas. Although, If i work in the AM Miner, then, I just have Wings on the Cap.)

 

 

Mephy isn't making it in, in a lot of builds - and I dont know if im doing myself a disservice because he has been stellar every game i've had him.  Only two issues are, that I just cant afford the 82 point pod I feel makes him brilliant, and his requiring wings to go off to charge the Hemlocks makes me worry.  Though, I havent counted him out entirely. 

 

 

TROOPS: 

 

Troops are sold (ish).  430 points. 

2x 5 Bolter Scouts- HB in each for the strat. 

2x 5 CCW Scouts- Axe/Sword in each

 

and then either 2x5 Las-caddy Tacs, 2x5 Intercessors or one of each. 

 

Vs. the reaper spam and Guard Russ Spam, the tacs need to hide, while the inters can move up and provide great backfield support. Just not sure what will be better, because I dont quite know the meta. 

 

ELITE:

 

1 non-negotiable is a Vanguard Vet squad.  8-10 man strong, at least 5shields. 

 

The next few are debatable and i'm giving serious consideration which I should take. 

* The Scorpios is phenomenal. Love it for so many armies - especially great for reaper-spam.  But, it is pricey, and not high strength. 

 

* DC as my second assault squad (i'd ideally like 3) is a strong contender too to give me options with Forlorn Fury.

 

* Las/Auto dreads (My list lacks long range firepower.  At 153 points, its a solid choice.

* If I run a Meph-pod, i've also found the sternguard to be exceptional. 

 

HEAVY:

 

I've been running 3x Quads.  I will absolutely have 2 in, the 3rd choice I'm happy to consider either a quad bolter, or a Dev squad (the latter costing double). 

 

FAST:

 

This is usually where my "play points" come in.  Depending on how many I need, I sub in Tarantulas. 
I find the 8man ASM squads always equip with 2melta, meaning they wind up being as expensive, if not more so, than the vanvets. 

I'd also love to fit in 3 Inceptors - but often dont have the points. 



What are your thoughts? 

 

For a tourney with these units as core- what do you think I need more of? 

[Karhedron]

More anti-tank might be worth considering. 2 Lascannons and Captain Smash are a start but as you pointed out, if you face Russ-spam from Guard, you might struggle.

[Remtek]

Hey all.

 

Been coming up with variants all weekend with the current tournament on the horizon. 

Its obviously very difficult to fit everything i want/need in. 

 

Main threats are AM and Eldar (obviously), but also some very strong Nid lists and one or two Chaos lists that will prove tough. 

 

I will be playing a brigade for the +9. 

 

HQ:

 

* At least one Wings Captain will be in there.  

 

Other two HQ are to be decided - but at present, all my lists are gravitating towards +1Captain, and Lieutenant. 

(in the case of the above, wings Cap gets Artisan, other Cap gets hammer, Lieut gets Veritas. Although, If i work in the AM Miner, then, I just have Wings on the Cap.)

 

 

Mephy isn't making it in, in a lot of builds - and I dont know if im doing myself a disservice because he has been stellar every game i've had him.  Only two issues are, that I just cant afford the 82 point pod I feel makes him brilliant, and his requiring wings to go off to charge the Hemlocks makes me worry.  Though, I havent counted him out entirely. 

 

 

TROOPS: 

 

Troops are sold (ish).  430 points. 

2x 5 Bolter Scouts- HB in each for the strat. 

2x 5 CCW Scouts- Axe/Sword in each

 

and then either 2x5 Las-caddy Tacs, 2x5 Intercessors or one of each. 

 

Vs. the reaper spam and Guard Russ Spam, the tacs need to hide, while the inters can move up and provide great backfield support. Just not sure what will be better, because I dont quite know the meta. 

 

ELITE:

 

1 non-negotiable is a Vanguard Vet squad.  8-10 man strong, at least 5shields. 

 

The next few are debatable and i'm giving serious consideration which I should take. 

 

* The Scorpios is phenomenal. Love it for so many armies - especially great for reaper-spam.  But, it is pricey, and not high strength. 

 

* DC as my second assault squad (i'd ideally like 3) is a strong contender too to give me options with Forlorn Fury.

 

* Las/Auto dreads (My list lacks long range firepower.  At 153 points, its a solid choice.

* If I run a Meph-pod, i've also found the sternguard to be exceptional. 

 

HEAVY:

 

I've been running 3x Quads.  I will absolutely have 2 in, the 3rd choice I'm happy to consider either a quad bolter, or a Dev squad (the latter costing double). 

 

FAST:

 

This is usually where my "play points" come in.  Depending on how many I need, I sub in Tarantulas. 

I find the 8man ASM squads always equip with 2melta, meaning they wind up being as expensive, if not more so, than the vanvets. 

I'd also love to fit in 3 Inceptors - but often dont have the points. 

 

 

 

What are your thoughts? 

 

For a tourney with these units as core- what do you think I need more of? 

 

Meph: I honestly think that he does not need as pod, he is so quick and less exposed if you have a bad psychic phase when running up the board. With a 28" threat range he can do things that deep strikers might be blocked from.

 

DC - I only like them in low drop lists for forlorn fury. Vanguard clear chaff very well and are much more durable, for elite hunting SG have so much more staying power than DC. 

 

Fast: I don't think the assault marines do enough. Scout bikes or Tarantulas for a cheap tax.

 

Elite: Scorpius is awesome, but expensive and risky. Many Eldar will have the tools to deal with it early game (shining spears with quicken) and turn 1 they will be protected inside transports. If the tourney is terrain heavy i think it's something to consider. Inceptors can substitue the long range fire power if you have the points. 

 

Troops: A mix of scouts and intercessors seems really strong. 

[Morticon]

Can you tell me what Shining Spears + Quicken combo is? I dont think anyone local has caught on to it yet? Also, terrain is likely to be heavy! 

Good feedback, thanks. 

[Shiboinky]

Can you tell me what Shining Spears + Quicken combo is? I dont think anyone local has caught on to it yet? Also, terrain is likely to be heavy!

 

 

A warlock/spiritseer casts quicken which allows the unit to take an additional move. Because shining spears have a good movement stat (14" I think?) and fly, they can bypass bubble wrap and pick their targets. It works best on large units, but even a small unit of 3 can cause some serious damage.

[Karhedron]

Yup, Shining Spears are gaining a reputation for being quite a monster unit, particularly with Psychic buffs and/or stratagems. Deploying them from the Webway is another popular trick although Quicken still tends to be needed for getting around the usual 9" reserve deploy restriction.

[Morticon]

Gonna try this out for the gme tonight:

 

AM - Miner

Captain - Hammer, Shield, Wing

Mephiston

Sanguinary Priest - Claw (or sword- unsure yet), JP

 

5x Tac - Lascannon

5x Tac - Lascannon

5x Scout - HB, bolters

5x Scouts- HB, shotguns

5x Scouts - CCW, Axe

5x Scouts - CCW

 

8 DC - hammer, hammer, JP

8 Vanvets - Hammer, Sword, Axe, JP

Dread - Las/Auto

Dread - Las/Auto

 

8 ASM - 1melta, hammer

Tarantula 

Tarantula

 

Rapier - mortar

Rapier - mortar

Rapier - HB

 

 

I'm really going to miss the Scorp - but need to see how it plays with a little more shooty.  I feel this is a nice, tourney tactical mix. 

Im also going to miss the intercessors - and will maybe go one tac/one inter - but, at the moment, my models are in storage, and i cant find my starter box <_< 

 

Choice for priest was based on his general tourney use and the fact im running tree squads of jumpers. 

[Are Verlo]

I guess the two dreads cut into the number of bodies? The ranks look a little thin, but you have a flexible force with speed, deepstrike, shooting and CPs (miner and brigade).

[Jolemai]

Why heavy bolter with shotguns on that one Scout squad? Haven't seen that or considered it before.

 

I also remain a firm believer in the 1 in 5 upgrade - so that CCW Scouts should have a single shotgun imo.

[Blackcadian]

Hmmm why the Dreads? Without any other vehicles they’ll likely eat ALL the opposing anti-Tank :/ Everything else looks fairly competitive. Edited January 31, 2018 by Blackcadian

[brother_b]

Why heavy bolter with shotguns on that one Scout squad? Haven't seen that or considered it before.

 

I also remain a firm believer in the 1 in 5 upgrade - so that CCW Scouts should have a single shotgun imo.

With CCW scouts and one shotgun you get 10 str 4 attacks melee,  and one shotgun (2 shotgun, 4 bolt pistol shots; 6 total).

 

With shotgun scouts and sgt. ccw, you get 7 str 4 attacks melee, with 4 shotguns (8 shotgun, 1 bolt pistol shot; 9 total).

 

Grand total for each version is "16" attacks (shooting/melee). I've gone with the 4 shotgun/1CC and have enjoyed the results. I also use a full CCW scout squad and love them.

[Diagramdude]

Mort, do you run your AM miner as an auxiliary support for -1CP?

 

I strongly recommend trying out a Tempestus Patrol detachment.

 

[45] Tempestor Prime, Command Rod, Laurels of Command, Grand Strategist

 

[78] 5 Scions, 2 Plasma guns, Plasma Pistol

 

[88] Scion Command Squad, 4 Plasma guns

 

The Tempestor Prime can issue two orders with the rod, and with the laurels each ordered squad can take a second order on a 4+. So you have a deep striking 13 Plasma shots hitting on 3s rerolling 1s and potentially rerolling failed wounds against monsters and vehicles on a 4+, or rerolling 1s to wound against any target.

 

Of course it's much more of an investment than a 30pt company commander but they become a legitimate alpha strike threat in their own right and can help out your list with anti-tank

[Blackcadian]

Doesn’t the officer have to be close to the units he’s giving orders to? If they all deep strike that seems like an easy warlord kill, also removing Grand Strategist, no?

[Diagramdude]

Potentially yes but there are shenanigans available! First, he has to be within 6" to give an order. But if you bring the patrol detachment you get access to AM strategems, one of which is allowing an officer to issue one extra order for 1 CP. So he can issue his standard two orders to the plasma squads, and then order himself to Move Move Move! to immediately Advance as if it was the move phase and get 6"+D6 out of dodge. He is also protected by the Character rule and the enemy generally has to actually commit to killing him. 

 

In my games I drop the scions down on an extreme flank rather than in the center and the Tempestor Prime usually stays below their threat radar, especially if I drop them into a building because they generally have to remove the scions before they can get to the officer, and Scions in cover can get to a 2+ save with the Take Cover! stratagem. Bringing the patrol detachment is really huge for getting access to some key stratagems, especially Vengeance for Cadia against Chaos lists. Reroll hits and wounds for 1CP against Chaos units!

[Blackcadian]

Hey that sounds really cool

[Morticon]

Thanks for all the feedback guys!! Really helps get the brain working even if the ideas arent used. 

 

Why heavy bolter with shotguns on that one Scout squad? Haven't seen that or considered it before.

 

I also remain a firm believer in the 1 in 5 upgrade - so that CCW Scouts should have a single shotgun imo.

Jol, the reason is only because I dont have bolter scouts ><; Like the actual models.  So, stuck with those.  
I can do the shotty in one CCW scout squad - will likely implement it! 

 

 

Hmmm why the Dreads? Without any other vehicles they’ll likely eat ALL the opposing anti-Tank :/ Everything else looks fairly competitive.

 

You're 100% correct.  And it is my biggest concern.  The issue for me is that I have no long range, heavy duty firepower and the lascannons the dreads bring to bare on a T7 platform is solid.  I also like that they dont potato as they take hits.  

I would, maybe consider a Dev squad instead? But in a tourney where Big Guns is a possible i'm hesitant to up my Heavy slots.   Also, the devs dont put out as much firepower for the same cost :(  

Other suggestions/solutions for this conundrum welcome. 

 

Mort, do you run your AM miner as an auxiliary support for -1CP?

I strongly recommend trying out a Tempestus Patrol detachment.

[45] Tempestor Prime, Command Rod, Laurels of Command, Grand Strategist

[78] 5 Scions, 2 Plasma guns, Plasma Pistol

[88] Scion Command Squad, 4 Plasma guns

The Tempestor Prime can issue two orders with the rod, and with the laurels each ordered squad can take a second order on a 4+. So you have a deep striking 13 Plasma shots hitting on 3s rerolling 1s and potentially rerolling failed wounds against monsters and vehicles on a 4+, or rerolling 1s to wound against any target.

Of course it's much more of an investment than a 30pt company commander but they become a legitimate alpha strike threat in their own right and can help out your list with anti-tank

Diagram - again - solid, solid advice- and i think you're completely correct that this would be more competitive.  I'm just trying to avoid having too much (/any, to be honest!) AM bleeding into my list.  The only issue is that the BA are so CP hungry that the miner is an auto-include.   But, CP aside - I dont have any AM models- and dont want to gravitate towards having more and more guardsmen in my BA list.  

[Morticon]

So, I played vs a DE list last night. 

 

 

Bunch of HQs

5 Venoms with warriors

3 Flyers (razorwings?)

3 scourge squads with bright lances.

Cant remember what much else. 

The game worked perfectly in my favour.  I got first turn, and pulled off a few of the tactics been mentioned in this and other threads (Shout out to diagramdude!) 

By end turn 1 I had killed 2 venoms, and all his HQs (who were all in the venom). 

 

His return shooting was limited as his scourges couldnt drop anywhere of value thanks to the scouts.  He also did a little poorly with the razors. He did take out 2 scout squads, and took both dreads down to 1 or 2 wounds each. 

 

In my 2nd turn however, the vanguard took on one of the Razors, Mephy and Captain took out another after the quad cannon finished off the first! 
Scourges went down, and basically he knew it was over and there was nothing he could do.  

 

The game ended after 3 player turns.  

 

[Blackcadian]

Good job on the win!

 

So I take it you’re looking for some heavy hitters in the elite section. How about a Deredeo then? They put out some solid dakka and are sturdier than your average dread. With the pavise you could even protect some back line units.