Getting Started In 8th Edition With Templars

[Radioactive Toy]

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Greetings Brothers -- I am a newly inducted Neophyte of the Black Templars, following the liberation of my home system by the Tiberior Crusade. I send you this transmission in hopes to advance my training and learn from senior Initiates of the order.

 

The vile alien and heretic are craven in the face of the Emperor, my Brothers, and they avoid honourable confrontation at all costs -- To be expected, as the foes of the Emperor are deceitful and treacherous.

 

Would it be wise to arm ourselves with long-range firepower to crush our enemies from afar, in reproach to these disgraceful tactics? Our armoury boasts a wide selection of destructive armaments, and our unique battle doctrine allows us to equip our Crusaders with the devastating Lascannon and Plasma Gun in a single combat squad.

 

As Templars, we seek nothing more than to purge the unclean with our righteous zeal, however it is necessary that we bring ruin to the enemy's transports and warmachines, that we might take our glorious battle to them.

 

So what say you, Brothers? Have your Crusades found utility in this strategy? I beseech you to impart your wisdom, and await your response transmission.

For Dorn, For Sigismund, and For The Emperor!

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(Translation, I'm a new BT player and I'm about to make my first purchases to start my army in a few hours. I've already got the Chapter Upgrade, but I don't know whether I should buy Assault Marines or Tacticals & Devastators. I mostly play against mobile, shooty armies like Eldar and Guard in my local meta, who would happily set up on the other side of the table and shoot me to bits before I can get close -- and I would actually like to win some games, so my question is: Do I go with the standard Chainsword + Powerweapons set up, or will I find more success running a shooty build of my own? I'm thinking MSU, Lascannon + Plasma Gun in every squad, mounted in Lascannon Razorbacks. Would you experienced players say this is a more competitive loadout? I'd also appreciate advice on an effective low-points-value army list for me to strive towards so I can start playing ASAP -- say, 1,000 points.

Thanks for your help and advice!)

[Dosjetka]

Welcome to the B&C and Chapter, Radioactive Toy. :tu:

 

I can't offer much in the way of gaming advice but since Black Templars receive (minor) buffs to their close-combat capabilities, I'd suggest going for a more CC force than a shoot-y one (also your willingness to go with a shoot-y force with Templars might incur the scorn of a few members ;)).

[Marshal Wolfhart]

We bring death to the Emperor's enemies with bolter and chainsword, not just either.

I like to run lots of armor with a single heavy melee unit (characters and a crusader squad) in a Land Raider Crusader. Besides that i have a knack for dreadnoughts and think they fit well with the shooty melee hybrid style.

In my mind devastators don't belong in a crusade, then again that's my decission, based on old, retconned fluff. Considering pure efficiency, shooting might get you more wins than melee, but the latter is gonna give you the more satisfying ones!

 

Welcome to the crusade!

[Marshal Reinhard]

Welcome to the Eternal Crusade, brother!

[Medjugorje]

welcome in our halls

[Radioactive Toy]

That you very much for the replies. I'm about to head out and buy some models now, so here's my thoughts:

 

To my understanding, Black Templars are a CC army stuck in a shooty codex. Even the buffs we get in combat pale in comparison to the dedicated CC factions out there. However, just like Marshal Wolfhart said: "We bring death to the Emperor's enemies with bolter and chainsword, not just either."

 

So my intention at this very early stage indeed to take one large combat unit in the front, probably in a Land Raider, with the rest of the army dedicated to long-range fire power and anti-tank. The simple strategy behind this idea is that the enemy will either spend their turn focusing on my back line, which will allow my large Crusader squad and HQ's to get into their lines unimpeded, or they will focus on my CC squad, which will allow my anti-Tank to sit back and pop their vehicles.

 

Hopefully, if my Crusader Squad makes it close enough, there will be something juicy for them to assault, because my Lascannons would have destroyed some transports.

 

This also allows me to capture objectives on my side of the table, and contest objectives in the enemy deployment, too.

 

No idea how it will actually perform on the battle-field, but I get the impression we aren't strong enough for a full-frontal assault army, but are wasting our potential by going full-shooty.

 

So that's the plan, hope it works out. Wish me luck, brothers!

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Couple the Crusader squad with something survivable. Like Terminators. Hammer and anvil. Even a big crusader squad doesn't last long unsupported in my experience.

[Schlitzaf]

So a few things about Templars Mechanically; the two mechanical reasons play our boys is our relic and our Crusader Squad. With Cenos and Champion being a nice little side benefit. Our relic turns a 6” Aura into the equivalent of 2 6” Aura in raw coverage area and means less congo’ing off deep strike. And the Crusader Squad bar debatably Grey Hunters is the best Tactical Squad.

 

Tactical Thread analysis for full math and relationship if your curious /selfpromotion. But on topic, Black Templars are melee inclined not melee focused. Our Crusader Squads are on par with Devestators with Two Heavies at 5 Man and our tide Squads on par with Vangaurd Veterans. So you should leverage that, to the best of your ability.

 

Basically, as a Black Templar we can avoid the buff character Tax as our Relic has one character equate to two (also makes buff chargers less issue of Congo lining off deep strike and normally). And our signature unit allows us to avoid troop tax. That said please please do not forget to take Neophytes in your Squads

 

You should try to have equal Neophytes and Initaites in your Squads. Doing 6-4 setup over 10-0 pays for two power weapons. 7-7 squads pay for two power weapons and half a Marine. Also Cenos give the cheapest shock Immunity in the entire game. And the Emperor’s Champion enables easily Speciality detachment and fills the third HQ slot for Brigade.

[Radioactive Toy]

Thanks for the insightful comment! You've given me more to think about. Many of the lists that I had read online did not feature Neophytes, or at least under-stated them. You raise a good point that dropping points on Neophytes can, in an ideal situation, have little impact on our combat effectiveness, while allowing us to save points to invest in upgrades. I also agree that Cenobytes are a fantastic way to make larger squads viable without losing models to moral.

 

You make a convincing arguement for a heavier CC presence in the army, Schlitzaf. You've definitely made me feel more comfortable about making a fluffy list that can still win some games, so thank you for that.

 

Also, I'm not familiar with a tactical analysis thread, so if there is somewhere I can read the math behind our Crusader squad, I'd really appreciate if you could link that to me, thanks!

[Brother Talarian]

Welcome, brother!

 

I look forward to the tales of your crusade.

Something else to consider l, regarding leadership, is the company ancient with the relic banner.

 

I seem to be the only one (that I've read so far) that advocates for it's use.

 

But unlike cenobytes, it can't be targeted by shooting unless it's the closest model, it's a character. It providea immunity to your troops and on a 3+ they can shoot/fight again.

 

I tend to charge the banner up with my belle units. If a few die, no problem, they can shoot/fight again.

 

Just last night I had a game where my crusader squad was being scorched to death by a leviathan. It has 3 wounds left, it killed my meltagun, I roll a 3+, the melts gets to shoot the big bad leviathan before he dies.

 

It's great for the value of 63 points imo. You then need to spend an extta CP to use another relic if you want... but hey. Depends on your playstyle.

 

I don't leave home without him anymore.

 

Best of luck to you,

[Schlitzaf]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340107-tactical-squad-variants-and-analysis/?do=findComment&comment=4970679

 

I’d choose Rites of War over Banner, but also take it on Warlord w/ Helm. Because 9” Reroll 1 and 6” Aura Immune (unless you want to do so funky raw argument that the model gains the rules on its datasheet. Through every other future Aura expansion has just been flat +3 so...)

 

Because even if Cenos lack character rule you can hide them behind LoS Blocking Terra. And if someone shoots your Cenos, they aren’t shooting your Marines. I am not a fan of Banner mostly because it requires models in range but to each their own.

[Radioactive Toy]

Rites of War requires you to not be playing a named Character as your warlord, as well. Since Helbrecht's aura effect is so good, I can certainly imagine taking him as Warlord. However, Schlitzaf, you brought up our Chapter Relic, the Crusader's Helm, which is fantastic, but a named character obviously can't take it. What would you recommend for a Warlord of a balanced BT force?

[Schlitzaf]

Depends, I prefer not using names characters, Helbrect in particular, because Helbrect is worth the same price as two Marshalls or Marshal + Castallen and 30 Points. Helbrect if you use him you need to build highly condensed elite force to best utilize his Aura.

 

If Helbrect Warlord I would not run tide Crusaders instead run 3-4 Backfield MSU Faux Devies. It depends what you need and what you want. I run a Tide List without Grim because I value those extra points.

 

It all depends what you want to do

[Radioactive Toy]

So just because I'm not 100% on the terminology yet, by Marshal and Castallen, you are referring to a Captain and Lieutenant, right?

 

Yes, I can see where you're coming from.

 

I like the idea of Cenobytes, too (I forgot to mention from earlier), because their 12" aura bubble will probably allow them to stay relatively safe while still conferring their benefit -- or at least make the enemy go out of their way to kill them, for only a meager 6pts!

 

As much as I like Helbrecht as a character, he does have one of the worst models in the game, in my opinion, so I won't be too loath to leave him on the shelf.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

If you're planning on running Dreadnoughts, consider some points... such as they can no longer Deep Strike unless you were fortunate enough to have a Dreeadnought Drop Pod, which FW no longer sells... they can now only be transported by Stormravens, which can be easily shot down by Guard, they have access to some cheap and powerful anti-air, so unless you plan on taking aerial units en mass, then I don't recommend you running Templar air against a guard veteran. And finally, consider taking a Chaplain Dreadnought, they count towards the character rule, and they have access to Chapter relics.

 

Also, if you're taking a LRC, against experienced guard or Eldar players, don't expect massive results in the case of damage dished out, it may have a lot of guns and fire a lot of shots, but all it takes is one unit to bog it down in assault and it can't fire any of its guns for 2 or more turns... so be warned... either keep it away from melee, or make sure you charge with it to get some use out of the Frag Assault Launchers.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Yes, Marshals are Captains and Castellans are Lieutenants.

 

We also have Sword Brothers instead of squad sergeants in tactical squads and whole Sword Brethren squads instead of Veterans.

 

Also, you can often get round a ban on Named Characters with the Champion, as he isn't named.

[Radioactive Toy]

By the way, say we're taking 7/7 Crusader Squads with Initiates and Neophytes, how are we getting them across the board? Do they really foot-slog the whole way, or do we invest in something heavy to take them half way, like a landraider? That seems expensive, though, because I imagine we'd have at least 2 of these 7/7 Crusader Squads, right?

[Jacques Corbin]

How about 5-5 in a Drop Pod? Shotgun Neos, to discourage charges and catch bullets, Plasma Cannon/Plasma Gun/Combi-Plasma, and 2 bolter Initiates. Maybe drop a Neophyte to include a generic marshal? Overcharge away! Drop in, blast a big hole in the enemy flank.

 

I am a huge fan of the Ironclad Dreadnought. T8 over T7 is huge! The Chainfist is better (and cheaper) than the Seismic Hammer, and if there is a character that grants rerolls to hit nearby, go Hurricane Bolters! Very scary unit, expect it to draw a ton of fire.

 

Bikers for cavalry? @Firepower is a huge fan of the Marshall on a bike with the relic helmet, and rightly so. A biker squad with 2 Plasma Guns and a Combi-Plasma will have little trouble in getting into Rapid Fire range, and with a Marshal close at hand... Or bikes are a great platform to get Meltaguns into range.

 

Grab a Thunderfire Cannon. They have their haters, but they have their good points too. Range is essentially table, and no need of Line of Sight. I average 7 shots with mine, not bad at all. Also, you get a Techmarine that can repair vehicles while the gun shoots. Stick a Dreadnought with Missile Launcher and Twin Lascannons or a Hunter/Stalker. In 8th edition, a Stalker will put the HURT on T'au, Eldar, and Blood Angels, due to the sheer volume of units with <FLY> in those player's lists. Of note, the Techmarine Gunner is a character (target restrictions), and the gun is counted as a separate unit (that he can always be farther away than), and the gun is a vehicle (that it's gunner can repair).

[Firepower]

Hmm...a promising Neophyte.  Your induction paddlin' will tell the truth of it, though.

 

Anyway, you are right, we are a melee army in a shooty dex.  Playing to our proclivity is not easily accomplished with the units we have available.

 

These days, despite my Crusade being basically one huge mass of pistols and swords, I'm (oh so very begrudgingly) coming to the conclusion that Crusader Squads simply aren't great for a melee army.  They're Assault Marines without jump packs and some ablative wounds (that would be you, Neophyte).  The Golden Days buffed them with Vows, and later our strength came largely from weight of dice on the charge.  Now, we've nothing helpful but a better chance to get into melee, rather than do anything special or impressive once we actually get there.

 

If you want to use melee Crusader Squads as the backbone of your army, they need a character escort.  Captains or Lieutenants in a pinch, though I highly recommend Helbrecht*.  The +1 strength is a great boon, and the lack of any Deep Strike option beyond Pods basically relegates him to running with Crusaders.  All our other heavy hitters deep strike and/or use jump packs.  Grimaldus is interesting, but remember that his 'extra attack on a 6' ability does not work with Fists, Hammers, or anything else that imposes a -1 To Hit modifier.  Our Champion is...our Champion.  He hits well above his weight in a duel, and comes dirt cheap for what he can do in optimal circumstances.  Not everyone is gonna let their Monsters and Characters within range of his retribution.

 

I've not tried good old fashioned foot-slogging Tide, but I doubt its effectiveness.  Unfortunately, the blessed LRC is rather expensive these days.  It can also be locked into a loop of useless futility if it gets charged.  On the flip side, it does have that large transport capacity, and its guns are meaner than ever.  Still, these days most prefer the Storm Raven, with its greater firepower, <FLY>, and only a modicum less transport space.  As for Pods, they're bloody expensive, and even with our charge re-roll 9" is a hell of a gap to close.  I'd restrict them to Ironclads and Sternguard.

 

So then, for melee, we come to the heavy hitters to get the job done. Vanguard Veterans, Assault Terminators, Cataphractii, and Ironclads.  Aside from the Vanguard, these options are mostly geared towards smashing particularly tough infantry and vehicles.   

 

Vanguard can be kitted out for anti infantry or, likewise, anti elite/vehicle duty.  Their versatility of equipment is great, and they should always be magnetized as a result. 

 

Assault Terminators are better taken with at least a majority of hammer/shields.  Their job is to smash stuff, but also become a beach head unit, soaking up fire and causing a fuss by their simple presence to take the heat off other units.   The ability to teleport away (even in a melee) is a very handy skill.

 

Cataphractii are a mixed bag in terms of shooty versus stabby.  They're also a beach head unit, can pump out some shots on arrival, and tear something nasty up with a generous application of fisty death.  One or two lightning claws can save points, but their guns are enough anti-infantry if you really must clear chaff with them.

 

Ironclads.  Ahh, our glorious venerables.  I've had a bit of a learning curve with these fellows.  Hurricane Bolters (and 8th edition is the first time those have ever been worth taking) and Heavy Flamers lead me to the belief that they were an anti-infantry beast.  To some extent, this is true.  Shooting from an Ironclad can wreak hell on weak infantry.  But in melee, they are meant to smash tougher nuts.  As an aside, a very useful pair of H Killer Missiles is only 12 points.  I recommend Pods** for delivery, or a Raven.

 

When it comes to fire support for all these fellows and our melee Crusaders, we're spoiled for choice (whether I like it or not).  Shooty Crusader squads, Sternguard, Thunderfires, Whirlwinds and Devastators (for the unfaithful among us), Predators, Ravens, and so on.  The one tank I know of that is not worth taking these days, much to my chagrin, is the Vindicator.  I recommend avoiding any weapon that is 1d6 or 1d3 shots, whether it's a Vindicator or a Plasma Cannon.  The Thunderfire has a minimum of 4, and comes with a neat stratagem, so it gets a pass.

 

Also, on a brief tangent about HQ units, Jacques is correct in my affinity for a Biker Marshal.  Stick our fancy hat on him, and he creates a huge re-roll bubble that can move anywhere on the table in an instant (say, if you want to go from buffing backfield shooters to front line melee in a hurry).  Give him a nice, simple Relic Blade and he can cut down nasties by the bushel all his own, if you really need him stuck in somewhere.  If you Deep Strike units, bring along an HQ with similar gear, whether a jump pack for Vanguard or Terminator Armor for Termie/Cataphractii squads.  Stick our fancy hat on any Character you fancy, aside from the named ones of course.  

 

Those are the bare bones of it.  I leave the more technical stuff to our Marshals.  My duty lies in maintaining the spirit of our Chapter and its brushes. 

 

As with most armies, it'd be best to simply start with one or two HQ units and some Troops.  So, you'll have to make up your mind on shooty or stabby Crusaders in a hurry

 

**Rules for Pods that take Dreadnoughts are in the Forge World book.  In short, they're cheaper, but have no gun.  No reasonable opponent will begrudge you using a regular Pod model to work as one.  You might wanna look at Chaplain Dreads in there, too.

*He's a great model if you replace his bald head, and find a way to protect that oh so fragile sword.  I magnetized mine.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Firepower

[Schlitzaf]

Firepower if you haven’t tried FootTide Squads you haven’t tried best part about Crusader Squads and Melee Combat. As I have explained elsewhere if you consider Vangaurd good then you should consider Crusader Squads good. Furthermore, move 6, advance 3.5, move 6, advance 3.5 gets you reliably in charge by turn 3. If you have enough deep strikers, and otherwise to clog up the enemy backfield while having Crusader Squads Charge frontfield.

 

I have found two Crusader Squads + two Intercessors make a good centered forces. While the Crusaders load out is basically in constant flux it’s core idea never changes from day to day. I’ll give good old tide a chance before you say nah to trying it

[Firepower]

Were I ready to sully my Crusade with the impurity of Primaris, I'd give that a shot. :P

[Radioactive Toy]

Thanks again for the wise comments. As a note, I want to mention that one of the main reasons that Black Templars attracted me is because I could get away with not playing Primaris Marines in my army. I'm quite a lord-nerd (although I haven't read a great deal of BT yet, that will change!), and I can't help but conclude that Primaris are heresy!

 

So I've gone ahead and bought some devastators to kit out shooty Crusader squads. I don't know what Heavy weapon to arm them with yet though. Range is not really a consideration, because I'll be taking advantage of our ability to have a Heavy and Special weapon in a single 5 man squad. The Special would have to be a Plasma, I suppose, but the Heavy is not so clear. I like the Lascannon for popping enemy vehicles, which like I said before, there are quite a lot of in my local meta. They'd need a transport to get them onto an objective / into 24" range, however. I'm also considering Razorbacks with Lascannons for that duty, giving a fair amount of mobility and firepower to knock out the enemy's transports.

 

As far as my army's melee presence is concerned, I'd like to give Crusader Squads a try in this department, too. Partially because they are our signiature unit, but also because Schlitzaf makes a convincing arguement for their efficacy -- although I don't like the sound of a turn three charge. Practically all assault focused factions out there are charging you on turn two. I'll have to try and find a way to achieve this myself.

Also, Firepower, an Ironclad does sound like a good idea. I could potentially run a 12 man Crusader Squad and an Ironclad together in a Stormraven. That would certainly get me in position for a turn 2 charge. If I need even more combat presence, I could get a unit of deep-striking terminators to join them.

If you guys have experience with shooty-crusaders, what heavy weapon would you recommend?

[Radioactive Toy]

Here's a quick 1,000 pts list I've thrown together to allow me to start playing BT as soon as possible, with expansion into a large list in mind. Let me know what you think.

 

Battalion Detachment +3 CP

 

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 + HQ +

 

Marshal [81 pts]

 - Master-crafted boltgun, Power sword, The Crusader's Helm

 

Castellan [67 pts]
 - Master-crafted boltgun, Power sword

 + Troops +

 

Crusader Squad [137 pts]

 - 6x Initiates (inc. 4x Chainsword & Bolt Pistol, 1x Power Sword & bolt Pistol, 1x Sword Brother w/ Power Sword & Plasma Pistol)

 - 4x Neophytes w/ Combat Knife

Crusader Squad [103 pts]

 - 5x Initiates (Inc. 1x Lascannon, 1x Plasma Gun)

 

Crusader Squad [103 pts]

 - 5x Initiates (Inc. 1x Lascannon, 1x Plasma Gun)

 + Flyer +

 

Stormraven Gunship [352 pts]

 - Twin Assault Cannon, Twin Multi-Melta, Two Hurricane Bolters, Two Stormstrike Missile Launchers

 

 + Dedicated Transport +

Rhino [78 pts]

 - Hunter-Killer Missile, Storm Bolter

 

Rhino [78 pts]

 - Hunter-Killer Missile, Storm Bolter

EDIT (forgot total points value) - 999 pts.

 

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I have tried to include units that I would also use in a 2,000 pts list. The 2 HQs and the 10-man Crusader Squad go in the Stormraven and get dropped off somewhere favourable on first turn. The two 5-man shooty Crusader squads will deploy in Rhinos to reposition to objectives / cover. Quite a small, elite army. The only thing I'm concerned about is the possibility of a 1-turn kill on the Stormraven, which is sort of an "eggs in one basket" unit. Admittedly, this is not likely to occur in a 1,000 pts game. If it draws at least 2 turns of enemy firepower while shooting its own guns and dropping off my front-line units in charge range of the enemy, then that's probably worth it.

For future expansion, I'd update the Rhinos into Razorbacks and add an Ironclad onto the Stormraven,

 

I understand that you will have criticisms so I'd love to hear them. This is my first shot at a Space Marines army list so I imagine there's a lot wrong with it.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Radioactive Toy

[Schlitzaf]

Well Black Templars aren’t a melee army we are a attrition army with a melee focus. Our goal should be bring to bear our large unit count, 2-3 ways of gaining Battle Immune, and efficiency of our deep strikes. If you want melee Marines, Blood Angels are your answer, we are more based in attrition and staying power than Blood Angels are.

[Schlitzaf]

Also with your list here what I’d do, change the 1 10 to 2 9 Man (drop an Initaite) by Dropping the Raven from your List. Drop the HunterKillers from the Rhinos, take 2 HeavyBolter Razor Razors. And then give the Shooty Crusaders a Combi Plasma. Also I’d give the Castallen Teeth of Terra (saving 4 Points and giving the Rhinos extras storm bolters) and upgrade the PowSword to PowAx