Getting Started In 8th Edition With Templars

[Radioactive Toy]

So what we've come to is: Larger stabby Crusader squads footslogging across the table with deep-strike threats to distract the opponent until they get there.

 

Deep-strike threat #1 can be Hammernators. They are expensive, but they seem fit for purpose. Whether they will be points efficient, only testing will tell.

 

As for other turn-1 threats, would you guys say that an Iron-clad in a drop-pod is "worth it"? That's a hefty points investment, but multiple people have have recommended the Iron-clad, so you must have had success with it.

[Firepower]

Well, I would take 2 Ironclads over just 1.  As for what they can do, you need to aim them at the right targets.  I screwed that up once or twice.

 

2 Ironclads with Chainfists, Hurricanes, and 2 H Killer Missiles and either a H Flamer or Melta in pods costs 500 points on the nose.  Throw in a Termie Assault squad armed entirely with shields/hammers, and you end up at a hefty 735 points invested in your deep strike.  You can mitigate that by swapping out shields for claws on a couple of the Termies, but not by a whole lot.

 

Those three units can take a lot of fire though.  What they achieve for you isn't just in the damage they cause, but in the damage they absorb.  That will change greatly depending on what sorta guns, and how many guns, your opponent has.  But all three units together are scary, because they can cause a world of hurt if left alone.  With Missles, a Melta and Hurricanes, the Ironclads are capable of reaping a good body count (or putting a nasty dent in armor) on the drop, even if they fail their subsequent charge.

 

The problem you face is Deep Strike denial.  DS is huge in 8th edition, and most folks are careful to spread their deployment in a wide net to prevent any real backfield drops.  You'll most likely end up with a deployment in the mid field, even if you wait a turn or two.  Considering you want them to soak up fire while your boys advance, you probably don't want to wait.

 

So the question of whether they're worth it or not...maybe. 

 

As a quick list off the top of my head-

 

Terminator Chaplain

 

Bike Marshal w/ Relic Blade and Chainsword

 

Cenobytes

 

3x Crusader Squad- 4 Initiates + Grav Cannon Initiate + Plasma Initiate + SB with Storm Bolter and Power Fist, 7 Neophytes

 

2x Ironclad w/ Hurricane, Chainfist, Melta, 2 Missiles, Pod

 

Terminator Assault squad- 5 Termies with Hammers

 

Bike Squad- Combi-Plas Sword Brother, 2 Plasma bikes

 

2x Thunderfire Cannons

 

It's fairly lacking in long range anti-armor power, but it comes in at under 2k points.  The fancy hat relic can go either on the Chaplain if you plan on deep striking the Ironclads and terminators in a fairly tight area, or on the Bike Marshal if you want to be able to zip around buffing units as you please.  It's a list that depends on getting as close as possible, as quickly as possible.  Pour on the hurt and soak up fire with the first wave on turn one, and rush to get the second wave stuck in fast.

 

Thunderfires are there largely for their stratagem.  It should help prevent guys from intercepting your Crusaders in the midfield.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Firepower

[Jacques Corbin]

Agreed with FP on most counts. The Hammernators and the Ironclads are not just for distraction, they force a reaction from your opponent. They either throw a ton of shooting at it, or (rarely) ignore them. They will either move away, move something expendable in between, or position their forces to ensure that they get to charge instead of you. Even if they die early, they are worth their points for their affect upon your opponent's decision making. No matter what they choose, play like they made the wrong choice, and punish them dearly.

 

If you are that concerned about getting your Hammernators and Ironclad where you want them, and quickly, remember that a Stormraven can carry both.

[Radioactive Toy]

Two Ironclads would be good, redundancy is always useful. They might kill one in a turn of focused shooting, but two? Along with the Terminators, that's a threat that will demand a significant answer. The only consideration is the heavy points investment.

 

They will definitely buy time to advance across the talble.

 

In an ideal scenario, I'd go first (because multiple drops will be deploying off the table), deploy 12" into my table edge, move 6", advance ~3". Lets say the opponent deployed 12" off his table edge as well, that leaves us 15" away at the end of first turn, if we run in a straight line toward our target.

 

Then providing the enenmy doesn't move any further away in their move phase, and just shoots the deep-strikers, we move another 6" advance 3" or 4" again, that leaves us with a 5" or 6" re-rollable charge to get into combat on second turn.

 

That's highly likely to succeed. But again, this relies on the opponent deploying at the edge of his deployment zone in Dawn Of War and NOT running away.

Starting to look do-able, though.

[Schlitzaf]

No advancing and charging so 8-9 inch Charge. But you only need to roll 7 or 8 inches and with our Chapter tactic that is very doable. About 75% success rate

[Radioactive Toy]

Good point, forgot about that..

[Schlitzaf]

Um....what wrong with a 75% chance to make a Charge?

[Radioactive Toy]

So I'm bad at maths and I do not know how to work this out for myself, so I wrote a quickie program using my limited programming knowledge where I can plug in a charge distance, and it will rapidly simulate 10,000 (or however many) charges at that distance.

 

With a 9" re-rollable charge, we're getting in roughly 48% of the time. 10", we're only getting there about 30% of the time, which is, I think, a more realistic estimate of a charge distance because the enemy will likely have either moved, or we will have been unable to move toward them in a perfectly straight line.

 

Anything over 10" then it becomes so unlikely that I probably wouldn't attempt the charge because I don't want to get hit by overwatch for no reason.

 

For the shorter distances (representing a turn 3 charge):

 

8" = ~66%,

7" = 82%,

6" = ~92%.

 

So we're looking at an unlikely turn 2, but almost certainly turn 3.

[Firepower]

A turn 2 charge foot slogging would be highly optimistic, unless your opponent wants to get into charge range as well (either to intercept and bog the Crusaders down or because they are better in melee than the Crusaders- this is why I like the Thunderfire stratagem).  In a Deep Strike you guarantee a 9" distance from the target.  Well, technically 9.0000000001" because the rule says you have to be "further" than 9" away, not 9" or more.  So you have to roll a 9" or better to be within 1" of the enemy.

 

Also remember, even if you fail the charge, they still get to Overwatch you.  A risky charge into a lot of guns can backfire very easily.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Firepower

[Hawklynn]

You guys are doing a lot of math when you could be burning heretics.

[Schlitzaf]

Radio, if your 9” away (NB Deep Strike says more than 9” away) its an 8” Charge. Sense your charge distance is actually (result) + 1. You only need to end within 1” from your Charge target. So your target will be 8” (12+4=16) or 9” (12+3=15) and you only need to roll 7” or 8” respectively to make it in. And yeah your make is right.

[Radioactive Toy]

The math will help to burn heretics more efficiently.

[Firepower]

You guys are doing a lot of math when you could be burning heretics.

 

This is why I prefer my duty as bearer of lore and the paddleum.  Marshaling is so dull!

[Radioactive Toy]

Radio, if your 9” away (NB Deep Strike says more than 9” away) its an 8” Charge. Sense your charge distance is actually (result) + 1. You only need to end within 1” from your Charge target. So your target will be 8” (12+4=16) or 9” (12+3=15) and you only need to roll 7” or 8” respectively to make it in. And yeah your make is right.

 

Ah, you're right. Where I say 9" charge, I meant a charge where 9 is the required result to succeed. Same goes for all the other distances in that post.

[Schlitzaf]

Also Firepower, I’d take on any melee unit with my Crusader Squads. I ain’t afraid. We can take a good hit and we can send it back just as well as the next guy over. If they want to Intercept me? If they use Khorne Zerkers (8 Man, 24 Ax and 8 Chain, 16 Ax and 11 Ax, 3-5 Dead Marines, 8 > 5.32 > 3.6 > 1-2 Dead Guys. So let’s 5 Dead). Hit Back 15 > 10 > 5 + 2.66 > 2 > 1 > 0.84. 3.5 > 3 maybe 4 Dead Zerks. (Overwatch depending on weapon. If you choose flamers. 7+2 > 9 > 4.5 > 1.5. Or 5 Dead Zerkers. 8 > 6.32 > 4.22 > 1-2 Dead Marines. 4 > 2.66 > 1.8. So likely looking at 2 Dead Marines. We lost 7 to their 6. Those Zerkers go bye bye, 3+ they lose another Model. At 4+ that a Dead Squad. I mean it costs two to interrupt here but we’ll worth it.)

 

They send a melee unit to intercept us? Unless it’s like Terminator Armor and 2 Wounds, come at me. We eat Power Armor Squads for breakfast, with the load of attacks we can withstand and then dish right back. Also we can take an Ork Charge. Given at best only 16-18ish of them can even hit. Squads like Boyz it really comes down who can the charge off. They basically murder us if they get it. But the reverse if we get they die. 27 > 18 > 9 > 7.5. 3 > 2 > 1. Shooting 12 > 8. 8+7 = 15. > 7.5 or 6.3ish. Or 15ish Dead. That a Battleshocking Boyz Squad. Like if they send a Squad to intercept our Crusaders? I say come at me. I’d always say, I’d not run the GravCannon, or Plasma on melee Crusader, PowSword and Flamers. That is 102 Points saves, a backfield Crusader or an Emperor’s Champion + things. And getting a turn 2 Charge unless your opponent hunkering in corner on killpoints is not that hard as 24” is quite a reasonable distance to cross

Edited January 23, 2018 by Schlitzaf

[Marshal Rohr]

I'm gonna try and Pioneer some pure Primaris. Wish me luck. 

[Schlitzaf]

 

You guys are doing a lot of math when you could be burning heretics.

 

 

This is why I prefer my duty as bearer of lore and the paddleum.  Marshaling is so dull!

Your fault for never giving me the proper my dear Chaplain :) (I love this forum)

[Firepower]

May you have good fortune on your road to heresy, Rohr

 

 

Also Firepower, I’d take on any melee unit with my Crusader Squads. I ain’t afraid. We can take a good hit and we can send it back just as well as the next guy over. If they want to Intercept me? If they use Khorne Zerkers (8 Man, 24 Ax and 8 Chain, 16 Ax and 11 Ax, 3-5 Dead Marines, 8 > 5.32 > 3.6 > 1-2 Dead Guys. So let’s 5 Dead). Hit Back 15 > 10 > 5 + 2.66 > 2 > 1 > 0.84. 3.5 > 3 maybe 4 Dead Zerks. (Overwatch depending on weapon. If you choose flamers. 7+2 > 9 > 4.5 > 1.5. Or 5 Dead Zerkers. 8 > 6.32 > 4.22 > 1-2 Dead Marines. 4 > 2.66 > 1.8. So likely looking at 2 Dead Marines. We lost 7 to their 6. Those Zerkers go bye bye, 3+ they lose another Model. At 4+ that a Dead Squad. I mean it costs two to interrupt here but we’ll worth it.)

They send a melee unit to intercept us? Unless it’s like Terminator Armor and 2 Wounds, come at me. We eat Power Armor Squads for breakfast, with the load of attacks we can withstand and then dish right back. Also we can take an Ork Charge. Given at best only 16-18ish of them can even hit. Squads like Boyz it really comes down who can the charge off. They basically murder us if they get it. But the reverse if we get they die. 27 > 18 > 9 > 7.5. 3 > 2 > 1. Shooting 12 > 8. 8+7 = 15. > 7.5 or 6.3ish. Or 15ish Dead. That a Battleshocking Boyz Squad. Like if they send a Squad to intercept our Crusaders? I say come at me. I’d always say, I’d not run the GravCannon, or Plasma on melee Crusader, PowSword and Flamers. That is 102 Points saves, a backfield Crusader or an Emperor’s Champion + things

 

The point is, an interception unit being a sacrificial lamb, stalling you midfield while the more dangerous or expensive baddies stay clear.  Most other armies have much cheaper infantry than us.  They can afford to throw squads away now and then, and even if we win the combat, the Crusaders will emerge depleted, and they've been stalled.  Opponents don't even have to charge, just stick them between us and the important stuff.

 

As a side note, you really gotta stop swinging around the mathhammer as something so definitive.  It all operates within a vacuum that doesn't exist on the tabletop.  It's a useful way to make estimates, but that's all they are (at best).

Edited January 23, 2018 by Firepower

[Schlitzaf]

May you have good fortune on your road to heresy, Rohr :P

 

 

 

Also Firepower, I’d take on any melee unit with my Crusader Squads. I ain’t afraid. We can take a good hit and we can send it back just as well as the next guy over. If they want to Intercept me? If they use Khorne Zerkers (8 Man, 24 Ax and 8 Chain, 16 Ax and 11 Ax, 3-5 Dead Marines, 8 > 5.32 > 3.6 > 1-2 Dead Guys. So let’s 5 Dead). Hit Back 15 > 10 > 5 + 2.66 > 2 > 1 > 0.84. 3.5 > 3 maybe 4 Dead Zerks. (Overwatch depending on weapon. If you choose flamers. 7+2 > 9 > 4.5 > 1.5. Or 5 Dead Zerkers. 8 > 6.32 > 4.22 > 1-2 Dead Marines. 4 > 2.66 > 1.8. So likely looking at 2 Dead Marines. We lost 7 to their 6. Those Zerkers go bye bye, 3+ they lose another Model. At 4+ that a Dead Squad. I mean it costs two to interrupt here but we’ll worth it.)

They send a melee unit to intercept us? Unless it’s like Terminator Armor and 2 Wounds, come at me. We eat Power Armor Squads for breakfast, with the load of attacks we can withstand and then dish right back. Also we can take an Ork Charge. Given at best only 16-18ish of them can even hit. Squads like Boyz it really comes down who can the charge off. They basically murder us if they get it. But the reverse if we get they die. 27 > 18 > 9 > 7.5. 3 > 2 > 1. Shooting 12 > 8. 8+7 = 15. > 7.5 or 6.3ish. Or 15ish Dead. That a Battleshocking Boyz Squad. Like if they send a Squad to intercept our Crusaders? I say come at me. I’d always say, I’d not run the GravCannon, or Plasma on melee Crusader, PowSword and Flamers. That is 102 Points saves, a backfield Crusader or an Emperor’s Champion + things

 

The point is, an interception unit being a sacrificial lamb, stalling you midfield while the more dangerous or expensive baddies stay clear. Most other armies have much cheaper infantry than us. They can afford to throw squads away now and then, and even if we win the combat, the Crusaders will emerge depleted, and they've been stalled.

 

As a side note, you really gotta stop swinging around the mathhammer as something so definitive. It all operates within a vacuum that doesn't exist on the tabletop. It's a useful way to make estimates, but that's all they are (at best).

Mathhammer a good way to judge the capabilities and effectiveness of a unit in a vacuum. I often find if I just sat here and explained my experiences folks go like “well annodotal!” Like I could sit here and tell you my Crusader Squads have gone toe to toe with 5 HammerTerminators, 30 Man Boyz Squads, 8 Zerkers, 2 8 Man Stealers, 2 20 Man Hormagaunts, 2 Carnifexes and 20 Gaunts, Celestine, 12 Death Company, 1 Daemon Prince, 9 Possessed and 3 Spawn, and 30 Gaurdsman some of these in the same game and almost every game I’ve been I got a turn 2 Charge with one of my Two Crusader Squads.

 

How many here would actually accept that evidence as useful and not worthless because it’s ‘one of’ event. If I didn’t have folks tell me “but muh Mathhammer” or for whatever arcane reason I found only having 2 PowWeapon attacks means you are unlikely to wound and kill but suddenly 3 your killing a marine or two every turn. I wouldn’t explain that the additional attack adds 0.3 or 30% kill chance (84 Vs 55) while 2 NonWeapon attacks add only 20% (0.22 vs 0.29). But I find I do or folks try to use Mathhammer they get off 3++ (which I find flawed but another story) and don’t believe a word I say.

 

If folks would believe me experienced I wouldn’t bother because I find folks normally don’t I use math.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Schlitzaf

[Radioactive Toy]

At the end of the day, 40k is a game of probabilities. It call comes down to dice rolls, so the measure of skill as a player is doing everything you can to maximise the chances of those dice landing in your favour. In that respect I do think that the math is useful.

 

It helps with planning your tactics ahead of time. If you know you have an 80% chance to win a combat, for example, you'll be much more confident taking the fight and you can plan your future turns accordingly. This is obviously not something you can work out on the fly mid-game, but it gives you a good feel for things.

 

If I was going against Khorne Berserkers, I'd like to know going in that my Crusaders can take the fight head on because they have an x% chance of winning.

 

Or alternatively, that I should avoid the fight and shoot them to bits because I'm likely to lose the combat.