The Big FAQ: Chaos Changes

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

My laser vindicators can now eat things more effectively...unexpected but not unwelcome, especially for World Eaters. I do find it interesting that it took them this long to give Spartans daemonic machine spirit, but super happy we got it anyway- no longer have to burn a CP on his shooting every turn.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

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[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

Also something else....20 man brick of Black Legion CSM with Mark of Slaanesh and Plas/Plas/Combi-Plas. Hit it with Prescience, Warp Time, and Delightful Agonies. It can Advance upfield an average of 9 inches, then go another 9 with WT because of the FAQ's statement about keeping Advance bonuses on additional moves (WT says the unit moves as if in the Movement Phase). Then it can open fire using the Legion Trait and maybe Let the Galaxy Burn. No double tap but still nice. Next round, survivors move up, double-tap twice (Endless Cacophony plus LtGB) and then Charge. That's a lot of dead chaff and a big chunk of tough ObSec bodies that your opponent has to deal with (thanks to Delightful Agonies). Meanwhile your other units can go do the real heavy lifting.

 

I've thought about that for a while, but you don't have enough firepower point efficiency. Cultist bombs are simply better point for point.

 

 

In this specific instance (Black Legion, Slaanesh, Warptime/Prescience/Delightful), I don't think so.

 

MATHHAMMER INCOMING.....

 

Cultist bombs cannot reroll all hits in any phase with Let the Galaxy Burn (they just get reroll 1's). Additionally, you'd need 66 cultists to be the same points as 20 marines with just bolters and an Icon (forget arming the Marines with anything else for now).

 

Due to max squad size, 26 of them can't be covered by Prescience, Vets of the Long War, Delightful Agonies, or Let the Galaxy Burn. They can't all be Warptimed forward either.

 

Because of the lack of protection on one squad, that short squad of 26 is going to get vaporized.

 

Firepower-wise, assuming we're shooting with no weapon upgrades during the 1st turn Advance with Prescience and Let the Galaxy Burn against T3 chaff with a 5+ save...

 

The 20 Marines get 17.8 hits, 11.85 wounds, 7.9 chaff dead.

 

The 40 Cultists will get 21.67 hits, 10.83 wounds, 7.7 chaff dead.

 

The 26 Cultists will get 17.3 hits, 8.7 wounds, 5.8 chaff dead.

 

So, the Cultists will indeed out-kill the Marines on the way in.

 

Now let's look at the same numbers of models at 12 in range, not Advancing, with Endless Cacophony, Prescience, and Let the Galaxy Burn.

 

Because the 26 man Cultist unit didn't benefit from any buffs, and couldn't get into half range due to lack of Warptime they end up with 26 shots, 13 hits, 6.5 wounds, 4.3 kills.

 

The 40 man Cultist unit at half range with the buffs gets 59.3 hits, 29.6 wounds, and 19.8 kills.

 

So we're looking at roughly 24 dead chaff models from the Cultists. Because of their better hitting and wounding (and rerolling all from Let the Galaxy Burn), the Marines end up with 34.6 kills.

 

Result: the Cultists do better damage on the way in, Marines in close.

 

 

Now let's move on to durability:

 

For example, let's say you're fighting Guard and not spending CP on Morale, but you are using the same buffs on the Squad of 40 as you are on the Marines. We'll keep decimals on for illustrative purposes and assume Cadians are standing still and rerolling 1's.

 

We'll say 132 lasguns (66 Cultists x2) are fired at both builds, divided proportionately so that the 26 man squad takes 52, etc.

 

After the dust settles, including Morale, the 26-man squad is down to 4.2 men and the 40 man squad that benefitted from Delightful Agonies is down to 17.6.

 

The Marines lose 7.7 men in the same situation because they're Black Legion with an Icon and 5 casualties only results in them losing 2 more men, assuming worst case and the roll of a "6."

 

The Marines have lost 38 percent of their strength, while the Cultists have lost 2/3, with the same resources invested.

 

 

Now, when you're talking Battle Cannons, the Marines will deplete faster than the Cultists, but now your enemy is shooting anti-tank weapons at a distraction unit. Specifically, each Cadian Russ, standing still, will kill about 7 Marines if they roll well for number of shots. Last I checked, a Russ with no Sponsons is 144 with a Battle Cannon. They'll need two if they roll hot and your morale roll is bad. Needing 3 is much more likely.

 

So....to annihilate 265 points of infantry, they're likely to end up throwing 432 points (3 Russes) of big guns at it, all because you used some CP and psychic powers to make it durable and dangerous enough that it HAD to be addressed in an overwhelming fashion or it would cause mayhem if it got too close.

 

 

So there is a case, with certain Legions (AL, BL, IW, Word Bearers, possibly Night Lords), for fielding ONE large 20 man brick of CSM and stacking it with buffs to soak fire and then purge chaff or tie up enemy shooters.

 

Caveat: DO NOT ATTEMPT WITH MULTIPLE UNITS. Only works for one.

[Lord Abaia]

After this FAQ/ Errata I'm having some serious thoughts about slapping some chainswords on my Havocs and turning them into Chosen. The squad runs with 4 flamers and a combi-flamer on the Champ. I've been cramming them in a rhino and playing pretty aggressive with them so far, and for 3ppm more they all get a second base attack and a free chainsword. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

After this FAQ/ Errata I'm having some serious thoughts about slapping some chainswords on my Havocs and turning them into Chosen. The squad runs with 4 flamers and a combi-flamer on the Champ. I've been cramming them in a rhino and playing pretty aggressive with them so far, and for 3ppm more they all get a second base attack and a free chainsword.

Don't forget to add a 5th Flamer.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Well, to be chosen, you would end up with 5 combi-flamers and one flamer - chosen do not get to take a greater number of special weapons, but can take the same number of combi-variants plus (as noted by GCZ) one actual flamer.

[Khornestar]

Huh? Maybe I'm misunderstanding...

 

Chosen can totally take 4 + 1 special weapons (melta, plasma, and flamer included), only the champion is relegated to only having the combi as an option.

 

Are you saying the same thing, or the opposite?

[masterstrider]

Now let's move on to durability:

 

For example, let's say you're fighting Guard and not spending CP on Morale, but you are using the same buffs on the Squad of 40 as you are on the Marines. We'll keep decimals on for illustrative purposes and assume Cadians are standing still and rerolling 1's.

 

We'll say 132 lasguns (66 Cultists x2) are fired at both builds, divided proportionately so that the 26 man squad takes 52, etc.

 

After the dust settles, including Morale, the 26-man squad is down to 4.2 men and the 40 man squad that benefitted from Delightful Agonies is down to 17.6.

 

The Marines lose 7.7 men in the same situation because they're Black Legion with an Icon and 5 casualties only results in them losing 2 more men, assuming worst case and the roll of a "6."

 

The Marines have lost 38 percent of their strength, while the Cultists have lost 2/3, with the same resources invested.

 

 

Now, when you're talking Battle Cannons, the Marines will deplete faster than the Cultists, but now your enemy is shooting anti-tank weapons at a distraction unit. Specifically, each Cadian Russ, standing still, will kill about 7 Marines if they roll well for number of shots. Last I checked, a Russ with no Sponsons is 144 with a Battle Cannon. They'll need two if they roll hot and your morale roll is bad. Needing 3 is much more likely.

 

So....to annihilate 265 points of infantry, they're likely to end up throwing 432 points (3 Russes) of big guns at it, all because you used some CP and psychic powers to make it durable and dangerous enough that it HAD to be addressed in an overwhelming fashion or it would cause mayhem if it got too close.

 

 

So there is a case, with certain Legions (AL, BL, IW, Word Bearers, possibly Night Lords), for fielding ONE large 20 man brick of CSM and stacking it with buffs to soak fire and then purge chaff or tie up enemy shooters.

 

Caveat: DO NOT ATTEMPT WITH MULTIPLE UNITS. Only works for one.

 

 

Regarding the green text: you failed to mention that I can now use Tide of Traitors to respawn all 40 Cultists. I've just added 160pts to my list for free. Meanwhile, the marines are still down to 13 in number. Also, the cultists have a MUCH larger footprint on the board. Agreed 20 CSM is a lot of guys and will cover a lot of ground too, but if you want to maximise your footprint, you sacrifice concentrated firepower. Cultists can still put out a lot of shots and bring enough density to hit hard. And when you look at to-wound rolls, a S3 Autogun with VotLW still wounds a T7 tank on a 4+, just like a boltgun does with VotLW, so there is not a huge gain with the CSM.

 

The goal of Cultists is not just killing power. Troops hold ground. That's their job. They deny the enemy space. The fact cultists can kill, horde and respawn (once per battle after the FAQ - sigh) makes them far superior to anything CSM can do. Agreed, CSM are far more durable, but in the current META, cultists are more effective. That's not to say that CSM are not effective, but strictly math-hammering, they lag. Fortunately, the nerf to tide of traitors has actually buffed CSM, since they are, as you put it, quite durable.

 

I would consider running 2 x 20 man units of CSM now. That's around 520pts. Heaps of board control. Give them boltguns and just spread out. Buff one with Weaver and the other with Agonies and they will be a pain to remove. Keep Abaddon nearby for fearless and rerolls. That's a strong base for any list. If you don't shoot them, they will swarm all over you. If you do shoot them, you're drawing fire away from your elites, fast attack and heavy support. Their only weakness is they are expensive and slow. You could have 130 (170 with Tide of Traitors) Cultists for the same points, and you can just tie up the enemy with bodies. There are only so many shots you can take in a round before they are on top of you. CSM become more valuable in the mid to late game when all the good weapons are destroyed or minimised (plasma, lascannons, etc), since they are not a priority target and they are durable against small arms fire. Cultists are good at the beginning of the battle, where claiming the board is important and delivering 160 shots T1/2 to enemy screens, before they start to get whittled down.

 

Interesting analysis nonetheless.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Huh? Maybe I'm misunderstanding...

 

Chosen can totally take 4 + 1 special weapons (melta, plasma, and flamer included), only the champion is relegated to only having the combi as an option.

 

Are you saying the same thing, or the opposite?

 

I'm saying the opposite - but was only half right (you are the other half).  Chosen can take a combi-weapon on the champion, 1-4 combi-weapons and/or special weapons and 1 special weapon.  I had missed the part (both in the FAQ and the codex) about being able to take special weapons on the 4 upgrade chosen.

 

So, in a chosen squad you could have 5 special weapons and 1 combi-weapon, or 5 combi-weapons and 1 special weapon, or some mix between those two.

 

Sorry about the confusion.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

To masterstrider,

 

Thanks for the extra insight. On an actual table, things would be a bit different than the illustrative example that I did to explore durability. All 132 lasgun shots would actually go at the 40 man unit, slaying roughly 29 of them and causing the unit to disappear in a puff of failed morale unless you spent 2 CP or had Abaddon nearby, but if you Warptimed them up, you likely wouldn't have the latter and with the former, your total cost of Tide would be 4CP, since you'd need them to live until your turn.

 

If Abby were close enough, then the guard player would simply add a few mortars to the tally or incinerate the 26 man unit out of hand using the 29 wounds above. There are armies out there that can handily destroy 70 T3, 5+ save infantry per turn without sacrificing firepower at other targets, so Tide of Traitors is not a sure thing.

 

 

Also, the Marines would lose 2 less if Abby were there and neither example would need Let the Galaxy Burn.

 

As a note, I specifically mentioned that the strategy was intended to kill chaff and chaff only. With that assumption the Marines far outperform the Cultists once they get to 12 inch range because the better strength does matter there.....and since the whole block of Marines can move an average of 18 inches on Turn 1 (remember they move as if in the movement phase with Warptime, so the Move increase from Advance still applies) and shoot out to 24 in that turn via Legion Trait with one shot apiece, I'd hardly call them slow.

 

It will be interesting to see how the various elements we discussed play out on the table.

[Stross]

Berzerkers in Claws do fine, especially 2x5 with 3 Plasma Pistols and Icon each. You have 4 Charge rolls for at least someone to make it.

 

And how many they can kill even if they get that charge? Into screen mostly

Bloodletters will get murdered by Dark Reapers with Forewarned or Tau with EWO. Against this strategy I mentioned, all they'll kill is the pod and maybe a couple Berzerkers on Overwatch. Then they die.

 

Reapers always stand somewhere behind other units or on the top of terrain. It is hardly that any Eldar just let you do that. 

If the Claw survives the intercept, it can possibly charge too so that it can soak Overwatch. It's actually pretty good in combat and can gain wounds back. mine have done well in Assault.

 

of course, I agree here, but no rerolls or warptime.

 

 

And no, you don't need 500 points. 10 Chosen is 160. Claw is 130 now. 10 Combi-Bolters (2x5 guys) is 20. Drop in 2 Khorne Icons for charge rerolls and you're at 330 for 40 bolter shots to shred one unit, followed by around 30 Chainsword attacks against another, depending on who makes it. Add max of another 10 for World Eaters.

Good strategy

 

 

 Use a Daemon with Gaze of Fate to reroll one die and then use a CP on the other if that doesn't work.

I presume you can reroll any dice for daemons of tzeench only or for everything?

 

 

As a bonus, use a Heldrake to lock down important shooters first. 

like I said they mostly stand behind and drake have big base. Or can't charge anything on the second floor

[Akrim]

So now that they officially ruled Decimators/Contemptors/Deredeos cannot benefit from Fire Frenzy what the devil was the point of adding the Helbrute keyword?

[Panzer]

 

Berzerkers in Claws do fine, especially 2x5 with 3 Plasma Pistols and Icon each. You have 4 Charge rolls for at least someone to make it.

 

And how many they can kill even if they get that charge? Into screen mostly

 

 

If you constantly run your Berzerker into screens you're doing something wrong. Even Khorne does need some ranged support to clear screens so the heavy hitters can work.

[adreal]

So now that they officially ruled Decimators/Contemptors/Deredeos cannot benefit from Fire Frenzy what the devil was the point of adding the Helbrute keyword?

Legion traits, the entire point was for legion traits

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

Berzerkers in Claws do fine, especially 2x5 with 3 Plasma Pistols and Icon each. You have 4 Charge rolls for at least someone to make it.

 

And how many they can kill even if they get that charge? Into screen mostly

Bloodletters will get murdered by Dark Reapers with Forewarned or Tau with EWO. Against this strategy I mentioned, all they'll kill is the pod and maybe a couple Berzerkers on Overwatch. Then they die.

 

Reapers always stand somewhere behind other units or on the top of terrain. It is hardly that any Eldar just let you do that.

If the Claw survives the intercept, it can possibly charge too so that it can soak Overwatch. It's actually pretty good in combat and can gain wounds back. mine have done well in Assault.

 

of course, I agree here, but no rerolls or warptime.

And no, you don't need 500 points. 10 Chosen is 160. Claw is 130 now. 10 Combi-Bolters (2x5 guys) is 20. Drop in 2 Khorne Icons for charge rerolls and you're at 330 for 40 bolter shots to shred one unit, followed by around 30 Chainsword attacks against another, depending on who makes it. Add max of another 10 for World Eaters.

Good strategy

Use a Daemon with Gaze of Fate to reroll one die and then use a CP on the other if that doesn't work.

I presume you can reroll any dice for daemons of tzeench only or for everything?

As a bonus, use a Heldrake to lock down important shooters first.

like I said they mostly stand behind and drake have big base. Or can't charge anything on the second floor

Gaze of Fate allows the player to reroll any one die during their turn. Units don't matter.

 

As for screens, opponents tend to squeeze their army into the back half of the table against World Eaters. This often leaves less space than they think between screens and the units they protect. You declare charge against the screen and the target unit. The first fight clears the screen, then you pile in and fight again to hit the target. If necessary, you set off Fury of Khorne for a third fight.

 

Alternately, friendly fire support clears the screens. You are coming down on Turn 2 after all. Mine always have it available. In the fluff, WE frequently use Heavy Bolters and I'm no exception.

 

Failing all that, you can instead just shoot over the screen. 6 plasma pistols and 4 Bolt Pistols tend to put a serious dent in a typical 5 man Reaper squad.

[Deadman Wade]

Are infantry screens that much of a problem? If we're talking about T2 deep strike, we have a turn of shooting to clear chaff. And IMO Chaos has pretty decent anti-light infantry shooting to clear areas for deep striking units.

Personally I'm more concerned with high AP shooting and multi-wounds units than with cleaning chaff.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Are infantry screens that much of a problem? If we're talking about T2 deep strike, we have a turn of shooting to clear chaff. And IMO Chaos has pretty decent anti-light infantry shooting to clear areas for deep striking units.

Personally I'm more concerned with high AP shooting and multi-wounds units than with cleaning chaff.

Infantry screens are an impediment to getting assault units in early. Before, many people were focused on how to avoid them to keep the focus on lots of heavy hitting units. Now, they're coming around to something that has been true since the Codex dropped: CSM absolutely shred chaff and are often better off simply deleting it rather than trying to make complex plans to avoid it.

[Khornestar]

I guess it isn't something we can always rely on, but there are ways to wrap charging infantry around the unit you're charging to ultimately let them gain additional distance (or prevent the unit from fleeing combat). I'm sure that's nothing we don't already know, but it does take a bit of thought/skill/practice and can probably improve the status of an assault army over all.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

So now that they officially ruled Decimators/Contemptors/Deredeos cannot benefit from Fire Frenzy what the devil was the point of adding the Helbrute keyword?

Legion traits, the entire point was for legion traits

 

And the Decimator is not a HELBRUTE. I think you meant the Leviathan.

 

 

Legion traits on certain of the big dreadnoughts are scary. I run a World Eaters Contemptor and people really don't like that extra attack. Renegade Contemptors inspire hysterical panic ("What do you mean it moves 24 inches with Warptime and can still charge?"!!).

 

There's also the idea of an Alpha Legion Deredeo that's heavily protected against return fire.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

So has anyone actually tried the Brute with double Scourge yet? I'm thinking a Renegade one supported by Warptime would freak people out.

[Gederas]

So has anyone actually tried the Brute with double Scourge yet? I'm thinking a Renegade one supported by Warptime would freak people out.

Planning on making one for my Emperor's Children. The only issue is I need at least two Helbrutes now (my extra Power Scourges were used in the construction of my World Eaters Warpsmith). And yes, I know. Emperor's Children Helbrute with two Power Scourges? Hilarious!

[intel31337]

After this FAQ/ Errata I'm having some serious thoughts about slapping some chainswords on my Havocs and turning them into Chosen. The squad runs with 4 flamers and a combi-flamer on the Champ. I've been cramming them in a rhino and playing pretty aggressive with them so far, and for 3ppm more they all get a second base attack and a free chainsword. 

 

If you are doing havok flamers, I've always advocated for min squad bikers with flamers instead.

 

4 flamers + combi-flamer vs. 2 flamers + combi-flamer + 3 combi-bolters.

 

-They cost about the same as havoks,

-Dish out slighly more damage on average (assuming 3.5 hits with flamers)

-Longer range (combi-bolters)

-More durable (6W at T5)

-Faster and doesn't need rhinos. 

 

Don't have time to math it out at the moment (at work).

[Scourged]

So has anyone actually tried the Brute with double Scourge yet? I'm thinking a Renegade one supported by Warptime would freak people out.

It's an idea I'm toying with, yes. That, and Renegade Bikers as well. Maybe even some Renegade 'jetslogging' Raptors (probably not, but, I mean, I have them, so...). A host of fast-ish moving targets that can threaten with assault, while their overlords of the XXth create a firebase in the back and then deepstrike turn two. Just bought and magnetized a 'fiend, too, so that could slide into either detachment easily, depending on needs. It could work... maybe. 

 

And hey, if I'm going to cast Warptime and propel the Scourgebrute into combat, may as well cast some Diabolic Strength on it, too. That's a solid 12 attacks at S10 AP-2 D2. Fairly respectable. 

[The Nephilim]

Yeah, Bikers were something I was thinking about today... for maybe the first time in 8th. They're have the speed to move them up the board, and can pack a couple specials and a combi, on top of the bike's bolters. If left alone, they'll be a nuisance. If focused on, that's one less of your 'better' units being targeted. Either scenario offers benefits, and can prepare things for a turn two deep strike. Not sold on it yet, but it seems alright. 

Okay, so question. With the ability of Emperor's Children to assault first, does this make a biker unit with plasma and a power ax look attractive? I've yet to play a game in 8th and am building my army as we speak. Before I order bikers, I wanna know if this will work out as well as I'm hoping.

[masterstrider]

I was thinking of how you can get a T1 charge with CSM. There are still so many options.

 

**Daemon Prince (12" base) with wings, Warptime, two Malefic Talons, and Intoxicating Elixer. 8A @ S8, ap-2, 2D. Have a friend cast Diabolic Strength for 9A @ S10. Ouch! 

**Bikers (14") / Raptors (12") / Possessed (7") / Chaos Spawn (7") / Maulerfiends (10") / Helbrute (8") (scourge-brute!) with Warptime. These units are not designed to trash the enemy, but they apply lots of pressure. Possessed are VERY durable, especially with Agonies or Weaver cast on them. Those 2 wounds are tough to get through.

**Berzerkers, in a rhino. They can jump out 3" + 6" move + 6" with Warptime + 2D6" charge re-rollable with Icon of Wrath for a massive 15" + 2D6" charge range. Or the same with Renegades trait for an additional 2D6" of movement as part of their Advance.

**Heldrake can move 30" on top profile, 20" on weakened, so unless it's dead, it will make the enemy deployment zone.

*Forward Operatives stratagem with any unit e.g. Cultists, Berzerkers, etc.

**Tide of Traitors to within 9" of an enemy on a flank. Double shoot to blow away screens or spend a CP to try a 9" charge.

*Renegade chapter trait with support from a cheeky Warptime for slower units.

 

The list goes on. In fact, Warptime didn't get nerfed: it actually became more valuable for units that deploy on the table. It'll almost guarantee a big unit can get the charge T1 and mess with your opponent. This may not always be the best tactic, but it's an option. (There are two types of assault: pinning a unit, and killing a unit, and both have different purposes).

 

Renegades with Alpha Legion have an INSANE T1 charge potential. I would say that mixing detachments will give the strongest result for power gamers. But if you want to run any legion, there are plenty of options for applying T1 pressure (if not assaults) to an enemy. Anything with a ** can be used by any legion effectively.