The Big FAQ: Chaos Changes

[Scourged]

 

 

Yeah, Bikers were something I was thinking about today... for maybe the first time in 8th. They're have the speed to move them up the board, and can pack a couple specials and a combi, on top of the bike's bolters. If left alone, they'll be a nuisance. If focused on, that's one less of your 'better' units being targeted. Either scenario offers benefits, and can prepare things for a turn two deep strike. Not sold on it yet, but it seems alright.

Okay, so question. With the ability of Emperor's Children to assault first, does this make a biker unit with plasma and a power ax look attractive? I've yet to play a game in 8th and am building my army as we speak. Before I order bikers, I wanna know if this will work out as well as I'm hoping.

So, I'll weigh in, but my experience is limited. Others may answer better...

 

Bikers won't do damage. They won't clear chaff, they won't bust tanks. One a axe and some chainswords really won't do much to anything. But plasma is plasma, amd always good.

 

Bikers are annoying. They are a thorn in a side. They are fast, and decently durable. If targeted, they will die fast... But then that's one less set of guns focused on your "good" units. If ignored, they can keep running around chipping away at defenses, harassing units, and grabbing an objective. They're utility, not damage.

 

But I think that's more of the mentality that's (always) been needed. Not every unit needs to be it's own deathstar. We already have Daemon Princes, Berzerkers, and others for melee. We have Obliterators for shooting. So fill in gaps with things that can distract, annoy, and subvert.

 

At least, in theory...

[masterstrider]

 

Bikers are annoying.

 

They are. Honestly, rather than using them as a mobile special weapons platform, it'd use them in place of Warp Talons to tag the entire front line of an enemy. All they have to do is touch the enemy and they can't shoot if they fall back. Tanks are especially vulnerable to this. Keeping from shooting for a turn or two is just as good as killing it. Without a screen, they can be very disruptive. You can also keep them out of sight until T2 or T3 and then have them appear and tie up any vehicles in the back line after the troops have pushed out to claim objectives.

 

Take min 6 with nothing but combi-bolters (5 for the unit, 2 for the champion). This will cost 152pts.You could give them 2 flamers. Don't bother with giving one to the champ as a combi-bolter gives a guaranteed 4 shots at 12" range, whereas the flamer puts out D6 (avg 3.5) @ 9". 

 

Move + Warptime means they can go ANYWHERE, turn 1. Fire at whatever you like within 12" with ( 28 shots @ S4). Use can Vets of the Long War and Endless Cacophony and they can put out 52 shots @ S4, wounding T7 on a 4+. Cast Weaver or Agonies on them to make them more durable. Then they can charge, but when they do, turn the bikes sideways so they can hit more targets. 6 bikes, with 3" bases can cover roughly 30" of table space, which is 1/3 of a table.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'd actually posit that Raptors do better. They're not as durable per model but they're cheaper, can carry the same load of special weapons (though yes they do surrender volume of bolt fire to bikers), are almost as fast but are more versatile in movement (they can go over obstacles instead of around or through, and unlike bikers, they can climb buildings to get units hiding in upper floors).

[masterstrider]

I'd actually posit that Raptors do better. They're not as durable per model but they're cheaper, can carry the same load of special weapons (though yes they do surrender volume of bolt fire to bikers), are almost as fast but are more versatile in movement (they can go over obstacles instead of around or through, and unlike bikers, they can climb buildings to get units hiding in upper floors).

 

In the role of disruption, they are very similar. Bikers are tougher and it's easier to hide 6 guys, which come with a combined 12 wounds. Raptors only come in a max unit of 10 and it's a bit harder to hide that many. They also lack the staying power of T5. Bikers can be left in play and you can forget about them. Once they've hit the front lines, they've done their job. Raptors are more tactical and so I'd rather use them to do surgical strikes.

 

The real benefit of bikers is: their footprint on the board is bigger and that's what you're buying - the ability to tag more things. Raptors are more versatile since they can be very killing in both melee, anti-tank, and assault. For a purely disruptive force, bikers are very good.

[The Nephilim]

 

 

Bikers are annoying.

 

They are. Honestly, rather than using them as a mobile special weapons platform, it'd use them in place of Warp Talons to tag the entire front line of an enemy. All they have to do is touch the enemy and they can't shoot if they fall back. Tanks are especially vulnerable to this. Keeping from shooting for a turn or two is just as good as killing it. Without a screen, they can be very disruptive. You can also keep them out of sight until T2 or T3 and then have them appear and tie up any vehicles in the back line after the troops have pushed out to claim objectives.

 

Take min 6 with nothing but combi-bolters (5 for the unit, 2 for the champion). This will cost 152pts.You could give them 2 flamers. Don't bother with giving one to the champ as a combi-bolter gives a guaranteed 4 shots at 12" range, whereas the flamer puts out D6 (avg 3.5) @ 9". 

 

Move + Warptime means they can go ANYWHERE, turn 1. Fire at whatever you like within 12" with ( 28 shots @ S4). Use can Vets of the Long War and Endless Cacophony and they can put out 52 shots @ S4, wounding T7 on a 4+. Cast Weaver or Agonies on them to make them more durable. Then they can charge, but when they do, turn the bikes sideways so they can hit more targets. 6 bikes, with 3" bases can cover up 25" of table space, which is 1/3 of a table.

 

See? SEE?! This is what I was looking for. I'm sorry, not sorry, wallet, but you're gonna be coughing up for at least six to twelve Legion Outriders and some bits from eBay. 

 

I'd actually posit that Raptors do better. They're not as durable per model but they're cheaper, can carry the same load of special weapons (though yes they do surrender volume of bolt fire to bikers), are almost as fast but are more versatile in movement (they can go over obstacles instead of around or through, and unlike bikers, they can climb buildings to get units hiding in upper floors).

Rule of cool trumps any posits. :P

[masterstrider]

 

See? SEE?! This is what I was looking for. I'm sorry, not sorry, wallet, but you're gonna be coughing up for at least six to twelve Legion Outriders and some bits from eBay. 

 

 

If you like that for dirty tactics, try this one for size...

 

40 cultists. Black Legion chapter trait. Abaddon. Sorcerror with Warptime and Delightful Agonies.

 

Black Legion units can Advance and rapid fire weapons as assault. Cultists have rapid fire 1 weapons, which become assault 1 when they Advance.

 

Move the cultists 6+D6" in the move phase. Cast Agonies for a 5+++ FNP. Then cast Warptime to move a futher 6+D6". Now, they've moved between 14" and 24". Make a T formation with a conga line to Abaddon. Now they are fearless with rerolls to hit all failed misses and 5+++ FNP save. Shoot the enemy with roughly 30 shots. Do it again if you feel so inclined using Endless Cacophony.

 

Now, the enemy has to kill all of them...to a man...or risk facing an entire front line charge T2. Talk about a distraction Carnifex! It might not be that hard to kill most of them, but it is a massive pain in the butt. And if they leave even one alive, use Tide of Traitors and do it again.

[McElMcNinja]

So can you cast warptime on a rhino that has already moved, then disembark (rules state units can disembark from a transport before it moves if they started embarked before the movement phase) before it moves again?

[The Nephilim]

 

 

See? SEE?! This is what I was looking for. I'm sorry, not sorry, wallet, but you're gonna be coughing up for at least six to twelve Legion Outriders and some bits from eBay. 

 

 

If you like that for dirty tactics, try this one for size...

 

40 cultists. Black Legion chapter trait. Abaddon. Sorcerror with Warptime and Delightful Agonies.

Emperor's Children or bust. Good day sir!

[masterstrider]

So can you cast warptime on a rhino that has already moved, then disembark (rules state units can disembark from a transport before it moves if they started embarked before the movement phase) before it moves again?

 

You cannot disembark from a Rhino if it moved in the movement phase. However, you can cast Warptime on a Rhino that has moved in the movement phase. Doing so means you cannot disembark any units within. 

 

I hope that helps.

[McElMcNinja]

Yes, thank you

[Drudge Dreadnought]

 

So can you cast warptime on a rhino that has already moved, then disembark (rules state units can disembark from a transport before it moves if they started embarked before the movement phase) before it moves again?

 

You cannot disembark from a Rhino if it moved in the movement phase. However, you can cast Warptime on a Rhino that has moved in the movement phase. Doing so means you cannot disembark any units within. 

 

I hope that helps.

 

 

 

You can also start with the unit in the Rhino, disembark is to get 3" of free movement, then move the unit, then warp time the unit. For standard CSM, that's 15 inches without needing an advance.

[Panzer]

 

Yeah, Bikers were something I was thinking about today... for maybe the first time in 8th. They're have the speed to move them up the board, and can pack a couple specials and a combi, on top of the bike's bolters. If left alone, they'll be a nuisance. If focused on, that's one less of your 'better' units being targeted. Either scenario offers benefits, and can prepare things for a turn two deep strike. Not sold on it yet, but it seems alright.

 

Okay, so question. With the ability of Emperor's Children to assault first, does this make a biker unit with plasma and a power ax look attractive? I've yet to play a game in 8th and am building my army as we speak. Before I order bikers, I wanna know if this will work out as well as I'm hoping.

Not more attractive than without that ability.

The Emperor's Children trait isn't good and not worth building anything around. If you get to use it, which happens rarely enough, it's neat but that's it.

Bikes are best used kept cheap with lots of bolter shots and smashing into enemy shooty units to support the rest of your army imo. Their damage output on their own is just too low.

The best legion to utilize that tactic is Renegades due the advance&charge but it works okay-ish with other legions as well.

[Sheesh Mode]

 

The best legion to utilize that tactic is Renegades due the advance&charge

I agree. If you want 6 bikes to shoot up the field turn one then renegades are the way to go. First a 14.8" advance to hit the mid field, then cast Warptime on them from a nearby Prince/Jumppack sorcerer and advance another 20". Context dictates but given that deployment zones are at most 24" away from another it is likely those bikes will be able to assault turn 1.

[HeresyBeliever]

 

 

So can you cast warptime on a rhino that has already moved, then disembark (rules state units can disembark from a transport before it moves if they started embarked before the movement phase) before it moves again?

 

You cannot disembark from a Rhino if it moved in the movement phase. However, you can cast Warptime on a Rhino that has moved in the movement phase. Doing so means you cannot disembark any units within. 

 

I hope that helps.

 

 

 

You can also start with the unit in the Rhino, disembark is to get 3" of free movement, then move the unit, then warp time the unit. For standard CSM, that's 15 inches without needing an advance.

 

Don't forget you can get out a transport 3" - move 6"  -  advance 3" Average - warptime - move 6"- advance 3" Average = 21" on avarage. You can still shoot assault weapons at -1 to hit.   

 

Do CSM have a stratagem which allows you to assault after advancing?

 

Using above on Rubric Marines as Black legion, you would be in rapid fire range after moving 19" 

[Khornestar]

CSM don’t get a stratagem to assault after advancing. Gotta go renegade, for that.

[intel31337]

 

 

Yeah, Bikers were something I was thinking about today... for maybe the first time in 8th. They're have the speed to move them up the board, and can pack a couple specials and a combi, on top of the bike's bolters. If left alone, they'll be a nuisance. If focused on, that's one less of your 'better' units being targeted. Either scenario offers benefits, and can prepare things for a turn two deep strike. Not sold on it yet, but it seems alright.

Okay, so question. With the ability of Emperor's Children to assault first, does this make a biker unit with plasma and a power ax look attractive? I've yet to play a game in 8th and am building my army as we speak. Before I order bikers, I wanna know if this will work out as well as I'm hoping.

Not more attractive than without that ability.

The Emperor's Children trait isn't good and not worth building anything around. If you get to use it, which happens rarely enough, it's neat but that's it.

Bikes are best used kept cheap with lots of bolter shots and smashing into enemy shooty units to support the rest of your army imo. Their damage output on their own is just too low.

The best legion to utilize that tactic is Renegades due the advance&charge but it works okay-ish with other legions as well.

 

I think it depends on what you are comparing to.

The example I gave was in comparison to the flamer havok squad that someone mentioned before. 

 

Havoks: 4 flamers + combi-flamer champ.

Bikes:    2 flamers + combi-flamer champ + 3 combi-bolters

 

From that, you can see the main difference is 2 flamers vs 3 combi-bolters. So if you assume 3.5 hits avg from flamers (7 hits) vs 12 combi-bolter shots (8 hits), their offensive output is nearly identical. Sure, the flamer havoks has the potential of rolling hot and throwing out 30 hits, but they could also whiff that roll. Bikers offer a little more consistency.

 

Cost being nearly the same (I think bikes are like 10pts cheaper). But its really the other benefits they offer. Durability, speed, and range.

[Panzer]

 

 

 

Yeah, Bikers were something I was thinking about today... for maybe the first time in 8th. They're have the speed to move them up the board, and can pack a couple specials and a combi, on top of the bike's bolters. If left alone, they'll be a nuisance. If focused on, that's one less of your 'better' units being targeted. Either scenario offers benefits, and can prepare things for a turn two deep strike. Not sold on it yet, but it seems alright.

Okay, so question. With the ability of Emperor's Children to assault first, does this make a biker unit with plasma and a power ax look attractive? I've yet to play a game in 8th and am building my army as we speak. Before I order bikers, I wanna know if this will work out as well as I'm hoping.

Not more attractive than without that ability.

The Emperor's Children trait isn't good and not worth building anything around. If you get to use it, which happens rarely enough, it's neat but that's it.

Bikes are best used kept cheap with lots of bolter shots and smashing into enemy shooty units to support the rest of your army imo. Their damage output on their own is just too low.

The best legion to utilize that tactic is Renegades due the advance&charge but it works okay-ish with other legions as well.

 

I think it depends on what you are comparing to.

The example I gave was in comparison to the flamer havok squad that someone mentioned before. 

 

Havoks: 4 flamers + combi-flamer champ.

Bikes:    2 flamers + combi-flamer champ + 3 combi-bolters

 

From that, you can see the main difference is 2 flamers vs 3 combi-bolters. So if you assume 3.5 hits avg from flamers (7 hits) vs 12 combi-bolter shots (8 hits), their offensive output is nearly identical. Sure, the flamer havoks has the potential of rolling hot and throwing out 30 hits, but they could also whiff that roll. Bikers offer a little more consistency.

 

Cost being nearly the same (I think bikes are like 10pts cheaper). But its really the other benefits they offer. Durability, speed, and range.

 

 

But the post I was responding to was talking about plasma and a power axe. ;)

[Stross]

I tested new rules today. 

There is a big risk now to be wiped out by turn 2, since without proper terrain enemy can quickly shoot all your army on the board, while another part in deepstrike. Especially, when you don't get turn 1. 

Even genestealers and Tyrant with Kraken can reach you and kill quickly, because your main force is in sky high. 

Not saying, that we, daemons, pay CP for getting deepstrike. Or our CSM units are not really cheep in power points. Abaddon + 10 terminators - 40 pp. And they are nothing without support/screen/another advancing units that will clean a screen and disctract an enemy. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

CSM don’t get a stratagem to assault after advancing. Gotta go renegade, for that.

True. And here are some other ways to charge after advancing when starting on the table (note, they won't all be guaranteed to make contact):

 

Use lots of SLAANESH units with the DAEMON keyword (Possessed, Daemon Prince, Warp Talons-though you'll lose Warpflame Strike, possibly Mutilators, Daemon Engines).

Get a Slaanesh Daemon Character within 6 inches for Locus of Swiftness. Big squads of Slaanesh Possessed are already nasty. This takes it up a notch.

 

Talisman of Burning Blood on a really tooled up Khorne character

 

Thousand Sons Warlord with Aetherstride.

 

There are doubtless a few that I'm missing aside from the Renegade trait.

 

Cool ways to reroll charge aside from the obvious Command Reroll, Banner of Blood, and Icon of Wrath:

 

1. Talisman of Burning Blood

 

2. Gaze of Fate (1 die for anybody)

 

3. Night Lord Warlord Trait (1 die for user)

 

4. Khorne "Daemonkin" CSM unit (Mutilators, Possessed, Warp Talons, etc.) near Khorne character

[Akrim]

My old Biker Sorc is looking better under the beta rules. I wonder what is a better unit for him to fling Warptime on; a Lasherfiend or a Decimator. Lasherfiend gets more Ws and As, but hits on 4s with a scaling stat line while the Decimator hits on 3s, no scaling.

 

Im thinking I may need to get a Fiend.

[Khornestar]

Or a leviathan. :P

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Or a leviathan. :P

I personally want to see the look on my opponent's face when I do it on a Typhon Heavy Siege Tank.

 

That thing is actually worth over 700pt now that it's harder to remove Turn 1 and there isn't a more optimal deepstriking/warptime choice for what it does.

[Scourged]

I'll give the FAQ and rules changes credit in this regard: we're all starting to brainstorm a lot more new and interesting tactics now that "T1 deepstrike->Warptime" isn't on the table anymore. I mean... we've had serious discussions on using bikes, if that is any indication of our new mindset. Not saying everything is happy and shiny and perfect, but, hey... 

[dakkamasta]

 

Or a leviathan.

I personally want to see the look on my opponent's face when I do it on a Typhon Heavy Siege Tank.

 

That thing is actually worth over 700pt now that it's harder to remove Turn 1 and there isn't a more optimal deepstriking/warptime choice for what it does.

 

 

Ever since Chapter Approved the Typhon is grossly overcosted. At it's original points value it was decent but still not incredible, at 700 its just plain bad. It absolutely killed me when I saw the points bump because I spent months at the end of 7th choosing a super-heavy for my Black Legion and I finally went with that, and now it's useless :(

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

 

Or a leviathan.

I personally want to see the look on my opponent's face when I do it on a Typhon Heavy Siege Tank.

 

That thing is actually worth over 700pt now that it's harder to remove Turn 1 and there isn't a more optimal deepstriking/warptime choice for what it does.

Ever since Chapter Approved the Typhon is grossly overcosted. At it's original points value it was decent but still not incredible, at 700 its just plain bad. It absolutely killed me when I saw the points bump because I spent months at the end of 7th choosing a super-heavy for my Black Legion and I finally went with that, and now it's useless :(

Saw it in a battle report recently-post Chapter Approved and it was far from useless. The T9 is a GIANT pain for certain armies. The Tempestus it was up against had difficulty because they were often screened out of Melta reroll range and even when they did get there, they were wounding on 5's....and it was removing whole squads whenever it fired, and then healing in CC.

 

Just mark it with Slaanesh, cast Agonies on it, and launch it forward with Warptime to wreak havoc. Moving it 20in and then charging is nasty....and it can still shoot in CC, then when the enemy fall back, it soaks up a huge amount of fire.

 

Has to be played carefully now, but with the FAQ changes, I think it can do work.

 

Just did the math and if it takes 20 Lascannon hits, 10 will wound, it will save 3 and those 7 remaining need to roll top half of the die to keep it from ignoring enough wounds to stay alive. That's a huge amount of firepower needed. Granted, there are other ways to kill it close up, but it can do huge damage and as it gets wounded, its WS goes up, giving it a higher chance of wound recovery.

 

The key is to use it with threat overload from things like bikes, Heldrakes, and other tanks. The player I mentioned used Sicarans and Havocs that were also raining down shots and requiring attention.....and do not be afraid to charge it in unless you're facing tons of chainfist equivalents or people with crazy CC Stratagems.

 

I own one and have a game in two weeks. I think I'll break it out.