Raven Guard/Space Marine 1000pt criticisms please

[Kingnoname1]

Hey guys this is my first post so sorry if I get any of the formatting wrong but here is my 1000pt Raven Guard list with the four points left over which at the moment are going to either a power sword on the captain or storm bolters somewhere. 

 

As for set up Hellblasters and Aggressors will be striking from the shadows with the tactical squads, captain going with the five man squad, in razorbacks driving up or forming a firing line depending on how badly I need to kill tanks. I am quite happy with the list, no small part because it's exactly 1000pts, I feel it has a lot of anti-tank/infantry and puts a lot of threats on the board and although it lacks considerably at close combat the beta rules, which my group will probably play, will hopefully offset that somewhat. 

 

I am very new to this edition however, having never really played a game, so am curious what those with more experience think.

 

Thank you in advance for any comments or criticisms you have. 

 

++ Patrol Detachment (Imperium - Space Marines) [57 PL, 996pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

**Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain [5 PL, 77pts]: Chainsword, Master-crafted boltgun, The Primarch's Wrath, Warlord

 

+ Troops +

 

Tactical Squad [9 PL, 103pts]

. 4x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun/Bolt pistol

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

 

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 90pts]

. 3x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun/Bolt pistol

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

 

+ Elites +

 

Aggressor Squad [12 PL, 222pts]: 5x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant, Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Hellblaster Squad [16 PL, 264pts]: Plasma incinerator

. 7x Hellblaster

. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Razorback [5 PL, 120pts]: Twin lascannon

 

Razorback [5 PL, 120pts]: Twin lascannon

 

++ Total: [57 PL, 996pts] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe

[Dracos]

First post in the Ravenspire? Obviously an Astartes of exceptional insight. Welcome to the Home of Corax. ;)

 

I would take a hard look at how to add a 3rd Tactical squad and Lieutenant. The CP for Battalions will be worth it and you can grow your list pretty much the same from there.

 

Drop the Razorbacks (add Las-Pred) and a couple Hellblasters would be my first thought.

 

 

 

 

Edit: hating predictive text :(

[mertbl]

Strike from the shadows with the captain as well. Rerolling ones (or all misses if you go chapter master) will really help that many aggressors and the hellblasters.

 

Drop the razorback as well and use the tac squads to hold backfield objectives. Use the points for a scout squad and a LT.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I agree with what everyone else has said:

 

Get that Battalion, going from 4CP to 8CP is going to be huge.

 

Here is my list:

 

Raven Guard - Battalion - 8CP - 1000 Points (On the nose)

 

Captain w/Jump Pack - Teeth of Terra, Combi-Melta - 112

Lieutenant - Storm Bolter - WARLORD - Storm of Fire - 62

 

Scout Squad - 4x Bolter, Sergeant with Storm Bolter - 57

Tactical Squad - 3x Bolter, 1x Lascannon, Sergeant with Bolter - 90

Tactical Squad - 3x Bolter, 1x Lascannon, Sergeant with Bolter - 90

 

Aggressor Squad - 4x Aggressors with Boltstorm Gauntlets and Frag Launchers, Sergeant with Boltstorm Gauntlets and Frag Launcher - 185

 

Hellblaster Squad - 5x Hellblaster with Plasma Incenerator, Sergeant with Plasma Incinerator - 198

Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought - 2x Twin Lascannon - 206

 

Can't resist the opportunity to push my Dread-agenda. :D

[duz_]

Welcome to the Ravenspire Kingnoname1! :D
You will see many veterans here to offer some sound advice :tu:

 

You say you are new to the edition, what about the hobby in general?
This a new force you are building, or adding to an existing one?

Awesome thing about this edition, is that is hard to go wrong with most army builds, unless you're playing somewhat competitively.

 

In the meanwhile, the Ravenspire always demands some pictures too if you want to set up a WiP thread on how you build and grow your force ;)
Good thing B&C has its own gallery if you haven't already got them hosted elsewhere, feel free to PM myself or Race Bannon if you need help with it. :tu:

[Dracos]

I love the B&C gallery. Makes posting pictures so much simpler for me. Photobucket meh.

[smbarne]

Lookin' good! I put together a few tweaks but tried to keep most of it the same as I imagine you've got a lot of the models already. Besides, at 1k Razorbacks, Hellblasters, and Aggressors are pretty powerful!

 

I think that a Batallion for more CP as well as a Lt for the reroll wounds could be helpful though.

 

---

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain: Chainsword, Jump Pack, Storm bolter, Teeth of Terra

 

. Lieutenant: Lightning Claw, Storm bolter, The Armour Indomitus

. Warlord: Storm of Fire

 

+ Troops +

 

Scout Squad

. Scout Sergeant: Boltgun, Combat knife

. 3x Scout w/Boltgun

. Scout w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

 

Tactical Squad

. 3x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun/Bolt pistol

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

 

Tactical Squad

. 3x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun/Bolt pistol

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

 

+ Elites +

 

Aggressor Squad: 5x Aggressors, Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Hellblaster Squad: Plasma incinerator

. 5x HellBlasters

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Razorback: Hunter-killer missile, Twin assaulT cannon

 

Razorback: Hunter-killer missile, Twin assault Cannon

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

Hey guys this is my first post so sorry if I get any of the formatting wrong but here is my 1000pt Raven Guard list with the four points left over which at the moment are going to either a power sword on the captain or storm bolters somewhere. 

 

As for set up Hellblasters and Aggressors will be striking from the shadows with the tactical squads, captain going with the five man squad, in razorbacks driving up or forming a firing line depending on how badly I need to kill tanks. I am quite happy with the list, no small part because it's exactly 1000pts, I feel it has a lot of anti-tank/infantry and puts a lot of threats on the board and although it lacks considerably at close combat the beta rules, which my group will probably play, will hopefully offset that somewhat. 

 

I am very new to this edition however, having never really played a game, so am curious what those with more experience think.

 

Thank you in advance for any comments or criticisms you have. 

 

++ Patrol Detachment (Imperium - Space Marines) [57 PL, 996pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

**Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain [5 PL, 77pts]: Chainsword, Master-crafted boltgun, The Primarch's Wrath, Warlord

 

+ Troops +

 

Tactical Squad [9 PL, 103pts]

. 4x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun/Bolt pistol

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

 

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 90pts]

. 3x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun/Bolt pistol

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

 

+ Elites +

 

Aggressor Squad [12 PL, 222pts]: 5x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant, Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Hellblaster Squad [16 PL, 264pts]: Plasma incinerator

. 7x Hellblaster

. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Razorback [5 PL, 120pts]: Twin lascannon

 

Razorback [5 PL, 120pts]: Twin lascannon

 

++ Total: [57 PL, 996pts] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe

 

There is a lot to like in this list.  

 

Good Stuff (always good all the time, all day, everyday)

-cheap captain

-hellblasters

-aggressors

 

Ok stuff (mostly good, but not always)

-patrol detachment

-lascannon razorbacks

 

Bad stuff (like the good stuff, just backwards)

-tactical marines

 

Simple plan going forward would be to phase out those tactical marines for scouts as you build up to 1500 and 2000.  

 

Have you made a plan for how to scale up to 1250, 1500, 1750 and 2000?  

[Kingnoname1]

Oh this is a lot more interest that I was expecting so thank you guys. Well as previous games, I have played a fair bit of Horus Heresy which is why I've chosen to stay with Raven Guard. Unfortunately the best units in that game imo, Javelins, Arcus strike tank and Mor Deythan(although I could turn them into Veterans) aren't great or don't exist so am a bit lost at how Raven Guard tactics have evolved in the last 10,000 years. 

 

Speaking of dreadnoughts and battalions I was thinking of adding them in the bump up to 1,500 and the Contemptor Mortis or 'basic' Contemptor are the front runners. But I will see if I can fit them in earlier.

 

So I've seemed to have underestimate the power of command points but I've also seemed to overestimate maneuverability. The transports main role was to allow by troops to get to where they needed and folding captain+tactical+razorback as well as anti-tank being an extra. 

 

While I retool the list I hope I can ask some general advise stuff. Does the Lieutenant aura make sniper rifles on the scouts worth it? In horus heresy they aren't great and haven't seen them around much in 8th. The reason why I was hesitant to get a dedicated anti-tank tank/dread was it kinda clusters all your eggs in on basket, I know the tactical squads are still there but it isn't much, how likely is a predator or dread to survive at least turn one? And lastly going first is a massive thing in Horus Heresy and as a lot of these changes would increase drops, is it not as much a thing in 8th?

 

Regardless it is nice that I can swap up the list with a few little tweaks to keep my opponents/room mates guessing so thank you in particular for the lists.

 

I might try to do some pictures once I get a little better at painting though... probably.

 

Edit1). (That's what I get for stopping half way through a post and doing something else and missing your post) Currently the 1,500 dream is undecided second HQ, scouts, Contemptor dread with assault cannon, and plasma interceptors. I will also give the captain a jump pack mostly because I love the mental image of a guy with a jump pack and a bolter, you could do this with the guys from DoWII, to help the new plasma interceptors and hellblasters not blow up. The whole can't deepstrike outside your deployment zone turn one hurts a little but still like it thematically. The other option would be I really like is the supreme command detachments of Custodes Shield Captains on jetbikes I've been seeing around. The mental image of Raven guard being all stealthy with these golden light bulbs charging from the front never will not amuse me.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Oh this is a lot more interest that I was expecting so thank you guys. Well as previous games, I have played a fair bit of Horus Heresy which is why I've chosen to stay with Raven Guard. Unfortunately the best units in that game imo, Javelins, Arcus strike tank and Mor Deythan(although I could turn them into Veterans) aren't great or don't exist so am a bit lost at how Raven Guard tactics have evolved in the last 10,000 years. 

 

Speaking of dreadnoughts and battalions I was thinking of adding them in the bump up to 1,500 and the Contemptor Mortis or 'basic' Contemptor are the front runners. But I will see if I can fit them in earlier.

 

So I've seemed to have underestimate the power of command points but I've also seemed to overestimate maneuverability. The transports main role was to allow by troops to get to where they needed and folding captain+tactical+razorback as well as anti-tank being an extra. 

 

While I retool the list I hope I can ask some general advise stuff. Does the Lieutenant aura make sniper rifles on the scouts worth it? In horus heresy they aren't great and haven't seen them around much in 8th. The reason why I was hesitant to get a dedicated anti-tank tank/dread was it kinda clusters all your eggs in on basket, I know the tactical squads are still there but it isn't much, how likely is a predator or dread to survive at least turn one? And lastly going first is a massive thing in Horus Heresy and as a lot of these changes would increase drops, is it not as much a thing in 8th?

 

Regardless it is nice that I can swap up the list with a few little tweaks to keep my opponents/room mates guessing so thank you in particular for the lists.

 

I might try to do some pictures once I get a little better at painting though... probably.

 

Edit1). (That's what I get for stopping half way through a post and doing something else and missing your post) Currently the 1,500 dream is undecided second HQ, scouts, Contemptor dread with assault cannon, and plasma interceptors. I will also give the captain a jump pack mostly because I love the mental image of a guy with a jump pack and a bolter, you could do this with the guys from DoWII, to help the new plasma interceptors and hellblasters not blow up. The whole can't deepstrike outside your deployment zone turn one hurts a little but still like it thematically. The other option would be I really like is the supreme command detachments of Custodes Shield Captains on jetbikes I've been seeing around. The mental image of Raven guard being all stealthy with these golden light bulbs charging from the front never will not amuse me.

The LT aura doesnt do much for scout snipers but it does add a considerable amount of reliability to lascannons and plasma cannons that wound most things on 3s or 2s.  Rerolling 1s will eliminate a huge chunk of your failed wounds. 

 

Regarding dreads or vehicles, never take only 1 because they will just eat all the anti tank your opponent has on turn 1 and die.  Unless this is your plan I would avoid single dreads.  However since you have 2 lascannon razorbacks, adding a lascannon+fist venerable dread or two wouldnt be so bad.  They benefit from chapter tactics so any opponent you face will likely pay attention to your razorbacks.  Also, you mentioned predators... I prefer devastators since they cost less and get cover saves, chapter tactics, signum, cherubs, and they get cover in addition to chapter tactics and cover. 

 

Going first is a big deal in 40k.  I think it would be best if you designed any and all lists with the idea of going second but include some alpha strike elements.  That approach give you mostly consistent results.   

[deadangel101]

If you are using the beta rules, be sure to keep an eye on power levels of your units as it pertains to Tactical Reserves. If you are playing matched play, this can really mess with your head and your plans for how you want to use your army. Especially as you add units for different point levels.

[MajorNese]

I'd change the tac squads. 2 lascannon shots for 200 points is a rather bad trade, the bolters probably won't reach anything from that far back. I'd equip them for midfield duties (plasma or something), or use intercessors instead (more firepower, more resilient, cheap models). That way, they can support the hellblasters and agressors, so your opponent has to focus on one unit, while the other(s) can continue to do its job. Single units in an area are easy targets, multiple units are a problem to dislodge (read: Concentration of forces).

 

The lascannon razorbacks are solid. Two of them will stick around for a while, if you only had one it would have been an easy target. A great future addition would be a thunderfire cannon, as the gunner can repair a razorback within 1" each round, while still firing his cannon at any target. Rather hard to dislodge, and considerable firepower.

[Kingnoname1]

OK I'm getting more and more happy with the list, swapping out the lascannons in the tactical squads for plasma guns and putting a combi-plasma on the sergeant. This is paid for with dropping the Razorbacks down to lascannon+twin linked plasma gun for both more semi anti-tank and the meme of killing your own Razorbacks.

 

The more I look over my list the more I realise I won't be able to have the two kill units, Aggressors and Hellblasters, at a significant strength and have a Battalion and have reasonably hard to kill units in 1000pts. Having five man squads sitting by themselves on objectives feels like you are leaving yourself open to be out maneuvered or just deep struck. The Razorbacks give my troops 10 wounds the enemy has to chew through and the Primius units seems reasonably tough on their own.

 

That being said as I move up in points I will definitely be picking up a scout squad and a second HQ so I will be able to test out having a glut of command points.

 

Thank you so much everyone for all your help it has really.... helped a lot. I'll try to do some WiP thing as the army comes togeather either here or in another thread.

[GreyCrow]

Welcome there ! Hope you enjoy your time with us !

 

There is a secret about 8th, it’s that it was designed to give a bigger role to Troops than before.

The mechanics of 8th Edition really are : Troops are the meat, everything else is support.

 

From your list, I see a lot of points invested in support (Aggressors, Hellblasters, Razorback) and very little invested in Troops.

 

The main role of Troops is that they are expendable enough to buy you time to read your opponents’ plan and bring your better guns where they matter, both pre and during game.

 

With your list, you will have to carry most of the engagement with Helblasters and Aggressors. Which means : they will take losses, and you will lose firepower.

 

Vehicles in the Marine Codex work quite uniquely vs other codexes: they carry the same guns as our main Troops aside from the Demolisher.

Basically, you will be using véhicules to press the advantage in a spot with low AT weapons.

 

But you need to know where there will be low AT weapons first !

 

That’s why I would HIGHLY advise you to try out a list with min squads of Helblasters and Aggressors and 1 less Razorbacks, and fill the rest with Tacticals with complimentary heavy weapons to the Lascannons you already have.

 

You are probably going to be adding 10-15 more tacticals, which will buy you more time to wait to deploy your heavier hitters, and wait to bring your Razorback in a spot where you know AT going it’s way will be limited :)

 

Especially with Raven Guard, the more you wait, the bigger the value of the stratagem !

 

Examples of a list I’m going to test out at 1000 points :

- Captain

- 3 x 10 Tactical with mostly 2 Missile/Plasmagun and 1 Heavy Bolter/Meltagun, various gear on Sergeant

- 5 Assault Centurions with Flamers and Assault launchers

 

Basically, a very big heavy hitting unit to take advantage of the stratagem, and enough delaying with the Tacticals to know when and where I should place it.

 

With a more varied roster of support units, you can afford less Tacticals, as you will have more specialized and effective support rather than the blunt tools the Centurions are.

 

You still will benefit tremendously from having more than 10.

 

Your list is not bad in any way, but due to the way the 8th Edition balance is being done, you will see them being placed under tremendous attention that they don’t want.

 

Primaris can work better than other type of support units, but fire saturation and good counter weapons (plasma) will see them melt away quite rapidly, and your list will lose momentum.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Welcome there ! Hope you enjoy your time with us !

 

There is a secret about 8th, it’s that it was designed to give a bigger role to Troops than before.

The mechanics of 8th Edition really are : Troops are the meat, everything else is support.

 

 

Im going to have to strongly disagree with this.  Whatever 8th edition was trying to promote, the net result for Space Marines is that our main troop option is pretty bad.  Tactical marines do not influence the game state in any meaningful way in any of the games phases.  They have mediocre shooting, no psychic abilities, poor close combat, mediocre or poor durability, poor movement, zero utility, and high cost.  The less points spent on them the better.  Scouts by comparison have the same mediocre shooting, no psychic, bad close combat but are cheaper and have great utility. 

 

There just isnt a good reason to pay 13ppm for a unit that offers virtually nothing that another unit does better for less.

[GreyCrow]

Troops influence the game in so many ways my friend. Board Control, delaying, deep strike prevention.

 

Marines are the toughest SOBs around there with the ability to get heavies which have become more fantastic than ever.

 

Troops are not there to make a decisive action but to set up a decisive action by other units. They buy you time!

 

Besides, the Marine roster is designed with Troops that are supposed to take one for the team and return fire.

Compare to non Marine codices, our troops are able to be equipped with the heaviest weaponry available outside of auto cannons and demolisher cannons and the flame storm.

While other armies have to rely on their support units to bring bigger guns than their basic troops can.

 

You can choose to discount the Tac Squad for sure and play however you like, but don’t underestimate its use !

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Troops influence the game in so many ways my friend. Board Control, delaying, deep strike prevention.

 

Marines are the toughest SOBs around there with the ability to get heavies which have become more fantastic than ever.

 

Troops are not there to make a decisive action but to set up a decisive action by other units. They buy you time!

 

Besides, the Marine roster is designed with Troops that are supposed to take one for the team and return fire.

Compare to non Marine codices, our troops are able to be equipped with the heaviest weaponry available outside of auto cannons and demolisher cannons and the flame storm.

While other armies have to rely on their support units to bring bigger guns than their basic troops can.

 

You can choose to discount the Tac Squad for sure and play however you like, but don’t underestimate its use !

Im going to assume you are talking about Tactical marines in your first point since it was what I took objection to.  Marines are not the toughest SOBs by any stretch.  3 guardsmen are about as tough as 1 marine against small arms fire but more durable vs plasma if you factor in points. 

 

Marines are also not very good meatshields for delaying tactics because of their prohibitive cost.  First off all, you cant really use them to prevent shooting against support units.  Secondly, you wouldnt really want them for screening against assault units because they are so expensive and really bad in close combat.  Scouts are vastly superior for screening because they eat up space in the midfield during deployment.    

 

Your point about Marines being the only troops that can take heavy weapons is factually wrong.  Guardsman can equip heavy weapons as can Eldar Guardians and Drukhari Kabalites.  

 

Lastly, it is worth noting that the people that play 40k for money in a competitive setting do not use tactical marines for the most part.  

[GreyCrow]

I apologize for not being clear.

 

I was saying that Marines are the only ones that can carry the heaviest weapons of the Codex aside from a few exceptions :)

 

Vehicles in other Codexes have tons of weapon systems that are unavailable to basic Troops, while we are limited to Assault Cannons, Autocannons, Flamestorm and Demolisher Cannons that are unavailable to our basic Troops.

 

If the Guard wants serious firepower, they HAVE to get Leman Russ tanks or Hellhounds. Functionally there is little difference in firepower between a Trilas Pred and a full laser dev squad.

 

Besides, GEQ are more vulnerable than Marines to Heavy Bolters and morale !

 

We can definitely screen from assault units. Would you rather lose a Tactical combat squad or a Devastators Squad ? Or a Hellblaster squad ?

 

For ranged unit protection, you make sure to deploy them first, then find the proper positions for your fire support units so that they can take the minimal amount of flakk back !

 

Any thing that can counter Tactical Squads can counter most of the support units we have available. I’d rather have the enemy plasmas be drawn to shoot at the Tacticals than Terminators !

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I apologize for not being clear.

 

I was saying that Marines are the only ones that can carry the heaviest weapons of the Codex aside from a few exceptions

 

Vehicles in other Codexes have tons of weapon systems that are unavailable to basic Troops, while we are limited to Assault Cannons, Autocannons, Flamestorm and Demolisher Cannons that are unavailable to our basic Troops.

 

If the Guard wants serious firepower, they HAVE to get Leman Russ tanks or Hellhounds. Functionally there is little difference in firepower between a Trilas Pred and a full laser dev squad.

 

Besides, GEQ are more vulnerable than Marines to Heavy Bolters and morale !

 

We can definitely screen from assault units. Would you rather lose a Tactical combat squad or a Devastators Squad ? Or a Hellblaster squad ?

 

For ranged unit protection, you make sure to deploy them first, then find the proper positions for your fire support units so that they can take the minimal amount of flakk back !

 

Any thing that can counter Tactical Squads can counter most of the support units we have available. I’d rather have the enemy plasmas be drawn to shoot at the Tacticals than Terminators !

 

I think contextually the thing that SG is emphasizing here is that for all your above examples, Scouts can do the same task, better, and for ~10-35 points cheaper (per squad)