Prot's ITC Tournament Re-cap

[Bulwyf]

 

The Heretic Astartes codex Daemon Prince entry DOES replace the Index Daemon Prince entry. Though if the wargear options were different, you could still select index wargear if you wanted. But I think the options are the same.

 

You could take a Nurgle Faction detachment with a Nurgle Daemon Prince with Warp Time (probably Alpha Legion).  You could also just bring an allied CSM detachment with a warp time jump pack sorcrer of Nurgle, or just a CSM detachment and then pay 1 CP to replace any power (including Smite) on a Death Guard psyker with Warp Time.

 

Nothing is overriding the option to take a Daemon Prince from the Index Death Guard list though. Unless Daemon Princes lose their access to warptime in the codex version, you can still take a Death Guard keyworded Daemon Prince with warptime

 

 

That's how I play it and it is correct. FWIW Battlescribe also allows this.

[Prot]

Since posting up the games, my list, here and in 'real life' I've had a lot of people tell me they don't know how the list performed well, or how I did damage, etc, etc. I guess at some point I would write up a reason I think it worked over the course of the tournament, but really I think the hardcore among those players probably don't play Death Guard. (I could be wrong).

 

The DP definitely was legal in my opinion. I just was working my butt off the night before to finish painting newer units, and that display tray. In the background I'm going back and forth between the organizers on the legality of the DP. 

 

I just ran out of gas, and I wasn't going to keep hammering away at it. That being said I knew full well going into the tournament that I severely diminished my returns on the Mortarion strategy without Warp Time.

 

Losing him so early, as often as I did, was proof that he really needed that going into that kind of tournament.

[Bulwyf]

Frankly I would never play Morty even in a friendly game without access to Warptime. It is literally life and death for him. If you don't have access to it then he's just a target that will absolutely die to shooting by turn 2.

 

I hate that they wouldn't let you use the index DP with access to Warptime. It is perfectly legal.

[Prot]

Frankly I would never play Morty even in a friendly game without access to Warptime. It is literally life and death for him. If you don't have access to it then he's just a target that will absolutely die to shooting by turn 2.

 

I hate that they wouldn't let you use the index DP with access to Warptime. It is perfectly legal.

 

My Death Guard testing might pre date when you may have been following this my progress/lack of progress. And it was very disheartening.  It felt like Warp Time AND first turn had to come together or forget about it. 

 

That's hard to take. I think with Knights it's about to become impossible to get use out of him without all of that PLUS Deathshroud and even then I don't think it's wort it. But I experimented a ton with him and kept wanting to use him. When I lost the argument to use Warp Time, I changed my expectation greatly from a hope of 50/50 win loss, to 'just go for fun'. 

 

I don't think Knights will be winning everything (especially on their own) but Shield Breaker missiles combined with Oath Breaker (not that it's needed for Mort) is going to be a very, very difficult time for DG and Marines which are so reliant on characters to get mileage out of some mediocre units. Guilliman is toast now for sure. At least Mort can take a rugged bodyguard and has FnP. I don't think we'll see much of either going forward now.

[McElMcNinja]

We still have cloud of flies to protect 1 infantry unit per turn, so the right warlord can be protected.

 

But my overall opinion is that mono DG armies will not win any tournaments. As I prefer a more fun environment to play DG in, I think I'm done traveling to tournaments. I still plan to attend local ones, just to play against a variety of players/armies.

 

On a side note, I have recovered my DA army which includes a full company and some characters. Maybe they can built into a tournament army.

[Prot]

I don’t blame you. It’s not an easy army to play. Competitive play is that much harder. Tons of characters though and choices are always good fun. I still think the DG with a dash of Nurgle is far more character than anything in the Astartes Codex.

[Bulwyf]

I hope the litmus test for fun isn't just how armies do in very competitive tourney scenes. This army is fantastic in terms of fluff and synergy. It isn't a top 3 army on the tourney scene but in terms of sheer fun? I'd honestly have to say it might be the best so far in 8th.

[Prot]

I hope the litmus test for fun isn't just how armies do in very competitive tourney scenes. This army is fantastic in terms of fluff and synergy. It isn't a top 3 army on the tourney scene but in terms of sheer fun? I'd honestly have to say it might be the best so far in 8th.

 

Well I think at this point this is where the conversation becomes personal. For example I had no idea how incredibly strong one of my regular gaming group's Astra Parking Lot is until I saw it place 1st and 2nd at the event I was in.

 

I play against that army frequently and against what people would consider 'competitive' armies frequently. So my experience with Death Guard might be very different than someone who is playing a very laid back variant of army lists and opponents.

 

Like I've said in the past I have a few different groups I play in. I often carry two lists. I most often do not know who I'm playing (no list tailoring) and that makes my opinions skewed to that environment. I've always believed 40K is different for different people; we all get something different out of it. I'd never push 'my' flavour of 40K onto someone else, but I can say if I play really 'funsy' lists, I will get my butt handed to me every week and no matter how much character an army has, it's no fun packing it up by turn 2.

 

I used to get a LOT of mileage out of my Ultramarines. It's very different now. In fact if I remove the local store out of my example (lots of new players and kids playing with collections they own, etc.) and just use my local group meta, there is no marine player. They're gone.

[Bulwyf]

 

I hope the litmus test for fun isn't just how armies do in very competitive tourney scenes. This army is fantastic in terms of fluff and synergy. It isn't a top 3 army on the tourney scene but in terms of sheer fun? I'd honestly have to say it might be the best so far in 8th.

 

Well I think at this point this is where the conversation becomes personal. For example I had no idea how incredibly strong one of my regular gaming group's Astra Parking Lot is until I saw it place 1st and 2nd at the event I was in.

 

I play against that army frequently and against what people would consider 'competitive' armies frequently. So my experience with Death Guard might be very different than someone who is playing a very laid back variant of army lists and opponents.

 

Like I've said in the past I have a few different groups I play in. I often carry two lists. I most often do not know who I'm playing (no list tailoring) and that makes my opinions skewed to that environment. I've always believed 40K is different for different people; we all get something different out of it. I'd never push 'my' flavour of 40K onto someone else, but I can say if I play really 'funsy' lists, I will get my butt handed to me every week and no matter how much character an army has, it's no fun packing it up by turn 2.

 

I used to get a LOT of mileage out of my Ultramarines. It's very different now. In fact if I remove the local store out of my example (lots of new players and kids playing with collections they own, etc.) and just use my local group meta, there is no marine player. They're gone.

 

 

I completely agree that results may vary for everything with this hobby. Some of us play in local meta that consists of nothing but competitive ITC type players. Some of us play in local meta that is mostly casual/local event lists. Some of us play with just a close group of family and/or friends.

 

Have you considered asking your local players, especially the guys I'm assuming you like playing more than others, to play more fluff friendly lists? I have some friends I play with that we have house rules about no lords of war unless both players bring them for example. It is meant to make things more fluffy and fun for all concerned.

[Prot]

I completely agree that results may vary for everything with this hobby. Some of us play in local meta that consists of nothing but competitive ITC type players. Some of us play in local meta that is mostly casual/local event lists. Some of us play with just a close group of family and/or friends.

 

Have you considered asking your local players, especially the guys I'm assuming you like playing more than others, to play more fluff friendly lists? I have some friends I play with that we have house rules about no lords of war unless both players bring them for example. It is meant to make things more fluffy and fun for all concerned.

 

 

It's funny you mention that. We often come to a point where collectively we say, 'Okay it's time to turn it down a bit.' Some people do it with no issue. Some people... there is debate. I hear stuff like 'I can't turn it down anymore' or 'it's inherently strong, so you make a better list.'

 

Eventually it can even out for a while, but after an event I can feel the compete level burning upwards. Heck some people flat out dropped their army like a hot potato after the ITC GT. I was actually shocked to see more than one player dropped long time armies claiming stuff like; ' After the tournament I've decided GW has to fix my codex'.

 

There's a lot of balls in the air here. I'm okay with it. I think I've had more questions about my Death Guard in the past 2 weeks than I have in 2 years. It will be hard if I decide to sell them. But I can't have multiple armies rolling. Plus it's such an expensive hobby! (If you're me that is. :) )

[Bulwyf]

Trust me, I know that feeling. I have 4 armies in total and that's through many, many years of slowly adding.

 

My local scene also has some players that will drop an army completely if it is not the strongest one at any point in time only to move to another strong army. I've stuck with Death Guard, Space Wolves, Emperor's Children and Dark Eldar for many years and editions. I love the fluff/lore of the armies too much to ever stop playing them.