Think Tank: Hypothesizing SW Unit Combo's, Options, Etc.

[Ratherdashing]

I don't think this is worthy of a thread of it's own, but since Frostfury was mentioned, has anyone had any ideas about modeling or painting it? Trying to decide between subtle (like icy blue lines backlighting) or not so subtle (like two helfrost pistol barrels on the stork bolter). Or something totally different.

[jerrys]

So I guess that if Ulrik is your warlord, and manages to kill a character or something, then everybody nearby wounds monsters at +2? (one for his Slayer's Oath and one for his Saga of the Beastslayer).

Is there something that prevents that from stacking?

I guess maybe it's still not very good, but I could imagine some hilarious situations involving e.g. Ulrik and 40 blood claws facing down a bunch of daemon princes, or something like that.

[PeteySödes]

So I guess that if Ulrik is your warlord, and manages to kill a character or something, then everybody nearby wounds monsters at +2? (one for his Slayer's Oath and one for his Saga of the Beastslayer).

Is there something that prevents that from stacking?

I guess maybe it's still not very good, but I could imagine some hilarious situations involving e.g. Ulrik and 40 blood claws facing down a bunch of daemon princes, or something like that.

There’s no reason it wouldn’t unless they FAQ it. That’d be a pretty fun one to play if it worked! Nidzilla lists beware haha!

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

I am looking at intercessors, and aesthetics aside, they seem to be just Grey Hunters better weapons... Some stats, except weapons. You can get +6" and -1AP everything else is the same. Or Assault 2, everything else is the same.

 

I guess you lose 2 special range weapons and 1 WGPL if you buy one. Just thinkingaybe they aren't that awful? Could move up the field and fire with the Assault 2 rifle.

I think they have their place. The extra survibability can make them decent objective holders and the added range means they can add a few shots even sitting back. One could argue that the extra points for the durability they are ok. There a few issues though. The lack of transports meaning they HAVE to sit back, that for just tax you are paying extra, and that if you add special weapons the Grey Hunters pack far more of a punch. I do still sometimes use them but I am not a huge fan of them.

 

 

 

In my experience with the assault variant the lack of a transport isn't a very big deal. Primaris are pretty much built around volume of attacks, so you don't want them inside of one. You want that unit to fire 10 shots every turn, and it does start to add up. Granted that doesn't mean they're amazing power armor troops in general are in a tough spot. Your just better off with a guardsman or cultist troop choice (the specialist units are fine IMO, its just the base guys.)

 

So I guess that if Ulrik is your warlord, and manages to kill a character or something, then everybody nearby wounds monsters at +2? (one for his Slayer's Oath and one for his Saga of the Beastslayer).

Is there something that prevents that from stacking?

I guess maybe it's still not very good, but I could imagine some hilarious situations involving e.g. Ulrik and 40 blood claws facing down a bunch of daemon princes, or something like that.

 

I don't think anything would prevent those rules from stacking:

1) they are different rules, 

2) you have to make Ulrik your warlord and have him kill the relevant unit (which isn't easy).

3) its very situational, like you said your not sure how good it is. GW doesn't go after things like that.

[M.Redbeard]

 

 

 

I am looking at intercessors, and aesthetics aside, they seem to be just Grey Hunters better weapons... Some stats, except weapons. You can get +6" and -1AP everything else is the same. Or Assault 2, everything else is the same.

 

I guess you lose 2 special range weapons and 1 WGPL if you buy one. Just thinkingaybe they aren't that awful? Could move up the field and fire with the Assault 2 rifle.

I think they have their place. The extra survibability can make them decent objective holders and the added range means they can add a few shots even sitting back. One could argue that the extra points for the durability they are ok. There a few issues though. The lack of transports meaning they HAVE to sit back, that for just tax you are paying extra, and that if you add special weapons the Grey Hunters pack far more of a punch. I do still sometimes use them but I am not a huge fan of them.

 

In my experience with the assault variant the lack of a transport isn't a very big deal. Primaris are pretty much built around volume of attacks, so you don't want them inside of one. You want that unit to fire 10 shots every turn, and it does start to add up. Granted that doesn't mean they're amazing power armor troops in general are in a tough spot. Your just better off with a guardsman or cultist troop choice (the specialist units are fine IMO, its just the base guys.)

I can see that working. But having to pay more ofr bolters with a bit more of range seems a bit superfluos to me. The assault variant get 10 shots within 30" which is ok, but it just feels so underwhelming. Theybwill add up. They'll kill a few GEQ, maybe a MEQ or two and if you are lucky take a wound off a transport. But it is not only the PA troops aren't in agreat spot, it is just that you meed to go all out on the Intercessors for the volume to matter. And for that personally I'd buy plasma guns for my Grey Hunters, which still being PA troops, they are more versatile.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

I can see that working. But having to pay more ofr bolters with a bit more of range seems a bit superfluos to me. The assault variant get 10 shots within 30" which is ok, but it just feels so underwhelming. Theybwill add up. They'll kill a few GEQ, maybe a MEQ or two and if you are lucky take a wound off a transport. But it is not only the PA troops aren'tin agreat spot, it is just that you meed to go all out on the Intercessors for the volume to matter. And for that personally I'd buy plasma guns for my Grey Hunters, which still being PA troops, they are more versatile.

 

 

The way I tend to look at it, is that a grey hunter squad that is decked out (so 2 plasma guns in your example plus possibly a C. plasma on the pack leader) in rhino costs about 20-30 points less than taking an intercessor squad & a hellblaster squad. Again I'm not suggesting they're competitive just that if we're running our troops that they're an option. 

 

I really wish that there were bigger rewards for going mono-fraction.

[Jackalwolf]

Hey guys so I made a new list based on all your knowledge. It's based on ashes of Prospero so what do you think of this:

 

- Arjac, Njal in TDA and 2 5 man cataphractii WG in a Spartan

- Bjorn and 5 long fangs with plasma cannons walking up the field and shooting with keen senses and rerolling with Bjorn

- 7 TH wulfen with a jump pack wolf priest with the armour of Russ outflanking

[TiguriusX]

Hey guys so I made a new list based on all your knowledge. It's based on ashes of Prospero so what do you think of this:

 

- Arjac, Njal in TDA and 2 5 man cataphractii WG in a Spartan

- Bjorn and 5 long fangs with plasma cannons walking up the field and shooting with keen senses and rerolling with Bjorn

- 7 TH wulfen with a jump pack wolf priest with the armour of Russ outflanking

 

That looks like a fluffy and fun list

 

Please note the LF don't need Bjorn to reroll.  They have natural reroll of 1s (unless you split fire)

You can send Bjorn up close and personal with someone and the LFs will be just fine when shooting

 

Also...who gets left behind to sit on objectives?

[Jackalwolf]

I'd need to drop something I really like to have unit holders :/

 

So the plan is to walk and shoot with the long fangs and then and Bjorn sitting back, maybe doing two drops for the WG, one in mid field and the other to attack.

[Karhedron]

 

 He's got two detachments in there (100-ish PL, not 60-ish), in the whole army. I guess the razorbacks, grey hunters, and bjorn would start on the table, right 13+13+13+12? So I think it would be OK? Or is it really by detachment?

my bad about the total PL. But the GH are 6 PL now. So it is 3(6+5)+12+2, really on the table. Is goes to 47 on the table vs 55 on DS. Even before it was 53 vs. 55 so it was still over the limit

 

Easiest way to deal with this problem is to scrape a few points together to add 1 extra Grey Hunter to each pack. Each pack then goes from 4PL to 8PL (before the WGPL).

[Guest Triszin]

I'd need to drop something I really like to have unit holders :/

 

So the plan is to walk and shoot with the long fangs and then and Bjorn sitting back, maybe doing two drops for the WG, one in mid field and the other to attack.

1x5 man cats, then add some grey hunter min squads?

[M.Redbeard]

 

 

 

He's got two detachments in there (100-ish PL, not 60-ish), in the whole army. I guess the razorbacks, grey hunters, and bjorn would start on the table, right 13+13+13+12? So I think it would be OK? Or is it really by detachment?

my bad about the total PL. But the GH are 6 PL now. So it is 3(6+5)+12+2, really on the table. Is goes to 47 on the table vs 55 on DS. Even before it was 53 vs. 55 so it was still over the limit

Easiest way to deal with this problem is to scrape a few points together to add 1 extra Grey Hunter to each pack. Each pack then goes from 4PL to 8PL (before the WGPL).

That is a way to go about. I was just pointing out the issue so he could correct it however he prefered (I'd say gor for JP to DS and that may take enough PL amd points difference to do it that way).

 

 

 

 

 

I can see that working. But having to pay more ofr bolters with a bit more of range seems a bit superfluos to me. The assault variant get 10 shots within 30" which is ok, but it just feels so underwhelming. Theybwill add up. They'll kill a few GEQ, maybe a MEQ or two and if you are lucky take a wound off a transport. But it is not only the PA troops aren'tin agreat spot, it is just that you meed to go all out on the Intercessors for the volume to matter. And for that personally I'd buy plasma guns for my Grey Hunters, which still being PA troops, they are more versatile.

The way I tend to look at it, is that a grey hunter squad that is decked out (so 2 plasma guns in your example plus possibly a C. plasma on the pack leader) in rhino costs about 20-30 points less than taking an intercessor squad & a hellblaster squad. Again I'm not suggesting they're competitive just that if we're running our troops that they're an option.

 

I really wish that there were bigger rewards for going mono-fraction.

i wish there was too. I usually do not go fully decked out. I go combiplasma, plasma in a 6 man squad. They fit ok in a Razorback, pack a bit more of a punch and the Ld 8 helps with the unit size. If I go against Eldar I add a SS to tank a bit and add survibability or add a melee weapon if I expect them in some way to be in combat. Just different tastes. It is less about 12 points more without a plasma pistol (which even when not optimal I do enjoy to add) so a bit less durable for a bit more of a kick. Different ways to see the troops.

[TiguriusX]

i was making noise in the official GW twitch coverage for Nova about mono codex getting bonus CP that was favorable to the crowd.

 

hopefully gw was watching

[Karack Blackstone]

i was making noise in the official GW twitch coverage for Nova about mono codex getting bonus CP that was favorable to the crowd.

 

hopefully gw was watching

 

Thinking outside the box, exactly what I want to see in this thread.

 

Is there any form of consensus as to the number of CP? Might it be a flat 1 to 3 CP bonus, per Detachment, or...?

 

Certainly intriguing...

[M.Redbeard]

Well a situational but maybe nice idea for all to consider.

 

Charge a unit and kill it in that same turn. Move 3" in consolidation. At the end of the phase play Honour the Chapter on that unit that managed to destroy tbeir target unit. They are eligible to fight due to having charged that turn. Get themnto move an extra 6" (new pile in and consolidate). While usually it will not be great, if you manage to break a line of Infantry for example you might use this trick to tie up a few Leman Russ tanks behind them with the extra movement. So a way to use the stratagem as rather than extra hits as extra movement to tie up important elements of a gunline.

 

Any holes in the tactic? Too expensive? Unsportsman like?

 

While I doubt for it to be a way to be used all the time, if possible it seems like a nice way to move units faster uo the board and maybe get rid of a few shots.

[Armchairarbiter]

Well a situational but maybe nice idea for all to consider.

 

Charge a unit and kill it in that same turn. Move 3" in consolidation. At the end of the phase play Honour the Chapter on that unit that managed to destroy tbeir target unit. They are eligible to fight due to having charged that turn. Get themnto move an extra 6" (new pile in and consolidate). While usually it will not be great, if you manage to break a line of Infantry for example you might use this trick to tie up a few Leman Russ tanks behind them with the extra movement. So a way to use the stratagem as rather than extra hits as extra movement to tie up important elements of a gunline.

 

Any holes in the tactic? Too expensive? Unsportsman like?

 

While I doubt for it to be a way to be used all the time, if possible it seems like a nice way to move units faster uo the board and maybe get rid of a few shots.

 

Just a forewarning: You cannot attack a unit you did not declare a charge against on a turn that you have charged. Also, the ability to activate in the fight phase has only the requirement that you are within 1" of an enemy unit when the phase starts (not upon activation). So you can still do the 3" pile-in even if that unit has taken units away to try to block it. 

 

I had this argument with a guy who tried to abuse the Khorne rules and activate a second round of fighting on a unit he consolidated into that was more then 12" away in his charge phase (thus making them impossible to declare a charge against). 

[M.Redbeard]

 

 

Well a situational but maybe nice idea for all to consider.

 

Charge a unit and kill it in that same turn. Move 3" in consolidation. At the end of the phase play Honour the Chapter on that unit that managed to destroy tbeir target unit. They are eligible to fight due to having charged that turn. Get themnto move an extra 6" (new pile in and consolidate). While usually it will not be great, if you manage to break a line of Infantry for example you might use this trick to tie up a few Leman Russ tanks behind them with the extra movement. So a way to use the stratagem as rather than extra hits as extra movement to tie up important elements of a gunline.

 

Any holes in the tactic? Too expensive? Unsportsman like?

 

While I doubt for it to be a way to be used all the time, if possible it seems like a nice way to move units faster uo the board and maybe get rid of a few shots.

Just a forewarning: You cannot attack a unit you did not declare a charge against on a turn that you have charged. Also, the ability to activate in the fight phase has only the requirement that you are within 1" of an enemy unit when the phase starts (not upon activation). So you can still do the 3" pile-in even if that unit has taken units away to try to block it.

 

I had this argument with a guy who tried to abuse the Khorne rules and activate a second round of fighting on a unit he consolidated into that was more then 12" away in his charge phase (thus making them impossible to declare a charge against).

This strategy is not too attack, it is too use the stratagemmto make extra movement and tie up meddling artillery. To atrack I am aware one must have declared the charge.

 

And to be able to activate is per rules "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase". So sadly it is not that it was at the start of the phase, but that is why I said to use a unit that charged, as you can activate it even if there are no enemies within 1".

[Armchairarbiter]

I get ya Redbeard, just thought I'd point it out just in case :). 

 

I had another thought as well come from the other thread discussing who to put Thunderhammers on. I think we need to rethink what some of our units are for to be most effective. TWC are a prime example of this. In 7th they were super smashy and could tear high T units apart. I believe we need to rethink them as what they're named, cavalry, used for running down soft targets. 

 

I thought about it on the train ride home and putting TH/SS on the TWC makes them too expensive and Wulfen just do it better anymore. Put a free bolter and a frost sword on them however and they become much more affordable and rather effective vs MEQ, let alone GEQ units. 

 

A 4 man TWC unit with bolters + frost swords is only 188 points. They move 10", toughness 5 and 3 wounds a pop? They will hit on 2s on the charge, have a ton of additional attack buffs for them and some decent strategems to help them out. Not too much more than a 10 man blood claw squad with a WGPL but with a much more effective punch. They could be a hardy and very effective flanking unit or great at guarding the back line and counter-charging units that drop in.

[M.Redbeard]

That is a nice idea Armchairarbiter. I had the idea to run them as Bolter and SS as harrasment units, but Bolter and FS seems like a nice option too. A bit worried about AP but for 9 wounds it might be worth it. Really nice idea.

[Guest]

So I was thinking of running a outflanking unit like this.

 

OUTFLANKING PACK

Wolf Lord on TW, krakenbone sword, SS or some ranged weapon.

4x Wulfen With SS/TH, and the leader has claws.

 

This gives the Wolf Lord a bit more toughness and wounds plus extra attacks. He can clear away any units that may try to swamp the Wulfen. Wulfen get to reroll 1s to hit, making a charge attack a nearly guaranteed hit. Not sure what saga to do though.

[TiguriusX]

So I was thinking of running a outflanking unit like this.

 

OUTFLANKING PACK

Wolf Lord on TW, krakenbone sword, SS or some ranged weapon.

4x Wulfen With SS/TH, and the leader has claws.

 

This gives the Wolf Lord a bit more toughness and wounds plus extra attacks. He can clear away any units that may try to swamp the Wulfen. Wulfen get to reroll 1s to hit, making a charge attack a nearly guaranteed hit. Not sure what saga to do though.

unless your WL is harald i dont know how you are outflanking him

 

cunning of the wolf is restricted to infantry

[M.Redbeard]

So I was thinking of running a outflanking unit like this.

 

OUTFLANKING PACK

Wolf Lord on TW, krakenbone sword, SS or some ranged weapon.

4x Wulfen With SS/TH, and the leader has claws.

 

This gives the Wolf Lord a bit more toughness and wounds plus extra attacks. He can clear away any units that may try to swamp the Wulfen. Wulfen get to reroll 1s to hit, making a charge attack a nearly guaranteed hit. Not sure what saga to do though.

As Tigurius mwntioned what is the plan to outflank the WL?

 

Also for that I'd recommend saga of the Wolfkin. Beastslayer is cool too, but Wulfen are already beast due to volume of attacks amd adding more will make the brutal. Majesty, Warrior Born are okay if you manage to get the auras. Hunter and Bear will give no benefits.

 

Amd give the Armour of Russ for extra punch

[GrFlur]

So far  we've got (or I think we've got) two things clear that are:

 

1 - Wolf Guard Battle leader

• Jump Pack
• ThunderHammer
• StormShield
• The wulfen Stone
• Saga of the Wolfkin

 

2 - Wulfen

• Wulfen with ThunderHammer & Stormshield
• Wulfen with ThunderHammer & Stormshield
• Wulfen with ThunderHammer & Stormshield
• Wulfen with ThunderHammer & Stormshield
• Wulfen Pack Leader with frost Claws

 

So are we, brothers, in for this ideas, more or less? 

 

 

On the Other hand, Our Lone_Wolf_Machine_Maker

 

 

BloodClaws Or GreyHunters

 

How many guys in the unit do you think will be sufficient?

 

Loadout For the WolfGuard_Pack_Leader_going_to_be_Lone_Wolf

 

StromShield

ThunderHammer

¿TDA?

 

some more ideas for the Lone_wolf_strategy shinenigans are going to be apreciated

[Jackalwolf]

Is it enough only 5 wulfen in a unit with the lord?

 

I always thought they'd be too focused fired to survive and be effective in such low numbers.

 

Also the battle leader is not meant to go with wulfen right? The wulfen stone is lost in them I thought. Wouldn't be be better with the armour of Russ?

[GrFlur]

They are two diferent things just to see loadouts that almost everyone is in accordance...

 

remember : wulfen stone doesn't mix well with wulfen :/