Index Imperialis: Assassins in March

[Gothical]

I don't think that arguing he can't make his points back really flies for the Vindicare.

 

Think of the complaints about Guardsmen, about how their orders drive them to insane levels (whether or not you agree, the complaints are made). Well, with a Vindicare using the Double Kill stratagem and saving a Command Point for re-rolling the amount of damage done. Even if luck is against you, you are likely to kill two Company Commanders in two turns (repeating the combo if necessary), significantly reducing the threat of the remaining Guardsmen - they can't rocket to objectives, they can't quad-shoot etc. Sure, you only got back 60 points to your 85, but the amount of damage done to the opponent's in-game options is worth far more than the points cost.

 

Also, D3 mortal wounds for 1CP is a great back-up to have, especially on a model always hitting on 2s. It can be used to chip vehicles into a lower stat bracket or to supplement anti-Knight firepower.

[Nyx of the Night]

So here's a question, could you get around the battle forged issue by having Cypher be your warlord and using the stratigum to get one? The original list would still follow the battle forged rule and Cypher would give you access to the stratigums 

 

No.  Cypher being your warlord would allow you to take the vanguard detachment with only assassins.  You need an Imperium detachment to gain access to the strategems.  So a Fallen detachment with Cypher would seem to allow you to use the strat to add an assassin to a Chaos army during deployment.

 

The same appears true for a GSC army with a Brood Brothers detachment.

[Lysere]

 

So here's a question, could you get around the battle forged issue by having Cypher be your warlord and using the stratigum to get one? The original list would still follow the battle forged rule and Cypher would give you access to the stratigums 

 

No.  Cypher being your warlord would allow you to take the vanguard detachment with only assassins.  You need an Imperium detachment to gain access to the strategems.  So a Fallen detachment with Cypher would seem to allow you to use the strat to add an assassin to a Chaos army during deployment.

 

The same appears true for a GSC army with a Brood Brothers detachment.

 

 

Need an Imperium Warlord to use the stratagem to bring one in as reinforcements. So no GSC Assassin's.

[Panzer]

 

 

So here's a question, could you get around the battle forged issue by having Cypher be your warlord and using the stratigum to get one? The original list would still follow the battle forged rule and Cypher would give you access to the stratigums 

 

No.  Cypher being your warlord would allow you to take the vanguard detachment with only assassins.  You need an Imperium detachment to gain access to the strategems.  So a Fallen detachment with Cypher would seem to allow you to use the strat to add an assassin to a Chaos army during deployment.

 

The same appears true for a GSC army with a Brood Brothers detachment.

 

 

Need an Imperium Warlord to use the stratagem to bring one in as reinforcements. So no GSC Assassin's.

 

 

Warlords don't use Stratagems. The player does. It just needs an Imperium detachment and the army to be battle-forged, period.

While this statement is usually right, it's not right in this specific case due how the Stratagem itself is worded. My bad. :P

[Nyx of the Night]

 

 

 

So here's a question, could you get around the battle forged issue by having Cypher be your warlord and using the stratigum to get one? The original list would still follow the battle forged rule and Cypher would give you access to the stratigums 

 

No.  Cypher being your warlord would allow you to take the vanguard detachment with only assassins.  You need an Imperium detachment to gain access to the strategems.  So a Fallen detachment with Cypher would seem to allow you to use the strat to add an assassin to a Chaos army during deployment.

 

The same appears true for a GSC army with a Brood Brothers detachment.

 

 

Need an Imperium Warlord to use the stratagem to bring one in as reinforcements. So no GSC Assassin's.

 

 

Warlords don't use Stratagems. The player does. It just needs an Imperium detachment and the army to be battle-forged, period.

 

Yeah, it explicitly says the warlord being Imperium allows you to take the HQ-less vanguard full of assassins.  In the strat section it says that having an Imperium detachment unlocks the strats.  A brood brothers (or fallen) detachment is an Imperium detachment, and therefore their inclusion unlocks the strats.

 

edit: Slight mistake realized two posts down.  Original point stands though.

[Mr4Minutes]

The operative requisition strat specifically says you can only use the stratagem if your warlord has the Imperium keyword.

[Nyx of the Night]

The operative requisition strat specifically says you can only use the stratagem if your warlord has the Imperium keyword.

Lol, that part I missed.  So yeah, no GSC assassins.

 

But the original point was that Cypher alone being your warlord wasn't enough, you also needed an Imperium detachment.

[chapter master 454]

he might not be able to one-shot. But a smash captain down to 2 wounds left is a lot easier to kill considering, just saying. Not to mention, take 2 and now you can have both snipe out a character reliably every turn.

 

So some things people are forgetting: He is a character. Good luck targeting him reliably without your own snipers. He WILL be a threat from turn 1 through to turn 3 even at worst. What you going to do? Use those sniper scouts to counter sniper him? good luck, those guys tend to be blown over by turn 1 because there wasn't a better target for some squad!

Second: He does ignore invulnerables. With a AP3 weapon that is kinda nuts considering a lot of tough HQs hide and rely on their double plus care package with smash captains being a big one. D3 damage isn't a world cracker but on average we can say each time this guy fires he is knocking 3 wounds off a model and 4 on a good day (winning that 50/50). Like I mentioned, that does put a smash captain to 2-1 wound left and a lot of other HQs would of fallen over by then.

Third: he has some fairly good pressure. If he was able to delete a character turn 1 with 100% consistency he would be insanely broken. However what he can offer is a fairly reliable turn 2 2 for 1 special with two double taps in each turn. If we say he deals 3 damage per shot, then most characters WILL be dead on the second shot. What HQs commonly fielded outside of monsters and special characters have more than 6 wounds? Scarce any I would say.

Fourth: The Turbo-Penetrator is a great ace in the hole. It isn't meant to be a tank killer by itself but what it does give you is a fairly solid option for when a pesky tank lives with barely any wounds left or is JUST above bracketing. Being allowed also to use this stratagem AFTER you confirm the shot also means you can't waste CP on it, it only triggers after you have a successful hit.

 

Not to mention people seem to be looking at assassins and thinking they will solo everything and anything by themselves. THEY COST 85 POINTS. It may not be cheap but they aren't exactly expensive ether. They add utility that gives you something to leverage on. Is your opponent going for a big CP spam turn 1 like a lot of people, bring a callidus and lean on those CP reserves and maybe even get a cheeky charge on their warlord turn 1 before they can even respond.

Enemy loves their psykers, bring a Culexus and cause a little bit of panic. This dude with his ability to be invisible (6s only to hit) lets him just stroll up the board and get next to psykers easily and considering he has raw AP-infinite (aka Olden day power weapon) you better be bringing invulnerables or you are kissing dirt with every caress. 18" isn't something you can easily avoid especially when the problem can also be bubble-wrapped and self protects with the invisible trick (which works both in melee and ranged). Remember, -2 to psychic tests means even smites are having a hard time and anything above 5 just becomes a massive challenge. Ether get in range and take the -2 from the threat bubble of the culexus or be out fo range to avoid the debuff.

Your opponent brought one of THOSE units. You know the kind. 30 ork boyz who will just need a metric ton of shooting and charging to deal with? Get an eversor. This crazy drug fueled whirly-gig of unbridled neck snapping and bone marrow sucking gore painting will by himself slice and dice those squads. Yea, crack back will suck but considering he can get a fairly god level FNP AND has a double fight strat, he could quite easily clear a full mob of orks by himself. Counting also the shooting you do before hand into the charge, he will have had by himself 12 attacks, all with AP1 and re-rolling to wound against those infantry blighters. Then for any who were lucky even to die, those trigger extra attacks and if we were being sad about this and count only an extra 2 attacks from this against those he is meant for (how you only killed 2 orks with this guy on the charge would be incredible. Anger management working at the wrong time), he would of had 14 attacks total that turn. 4 of which were str 4 with re-rolled to wound and the rest can be made at strength 5, re-roll to wound (so against more infantry, talking 3s to wound, re-rolling all failed). If they fail to murder him on the return, take another round of 8 attacks.

 

No one assassin will do EVERYTHING. They are meant to be a silver bullet for one particular niche issue and even then, it isn't that they are the silver magnum. It may not be a sure-fire kill but for 85 points these guys WILL and I mean WILL screw up your opponent's plans. I mean...how do you respond when you are told that your squad of boys is getting out-attacked by a single dude?

And remember: In Theory, Theory and Practice are the same. In Practice, Theory and Practice aren't the same. You need theory to practice but theory without practice is just waffling but without the waffles. And being without waffles is a very sad universe...even the emperor would agree.

[Panzer]

The operative requisition strat specifically says you can only use the stratagem if your warlord has the Imperium keyword.

Welp, that's what I get for only re-reading the Stratagem paragraph but not the Stratagem itself. Damn exceptions upon exceptions. :D

Of course Lysere is right then that you need your Warlord to be from the Imperium as well.

[QuarterPounder]

And remember: In Theory, Theory and Practice are the same. In Practice, Theory and Practice aren't the same. You need theory to practice but theory without practice is just waffling but without the waffles. And being without waffles is a very sad universe...even the emperor would agree.

Love it.

[Feral_80]

Guys I'll try one last time to sum it up, then I'll just give up. It's a free world, after all.

 

The theory vs practice debate is exactly what I am interested in: in theory, the Vindicare is good, but in practice I doubt he will be that good.

 

Imagine even a *theoretically* ideal battlefield with zero l-o-s blocking terrain, where the Vindicare can use his 72" range to full advantage and play the 'you can run but you can't hide' game with his poor victim(s). In a round, he will have:

• 1/6 chance to fail to hit
• 1/6 chance to fail to wound
• 1/6 chance to fail to inflict wounds, as his target has 1/6 chance to pass an armour save if we assume he is firing at what most people here seem to consider his ideal target (Smash Captain or eq. with 3+ save, at AP -3); improve this to 1/3 chance to fail against sturdier (2+ armour) targets.

Say what you must, but 3x 1/6 chance (or 3x 16,7% if you prefer) in any given turn is, objectively speaking, a *significant* chance to achieve *nothing*. And even if the Vindicare overcomes these odds, he still has a *very* swingy damage potential. And all of this in a theoretically ideal environment, which will never happen.

 

Now let us add some more practical considerations, which will predictably impact his performance. The above excludes complicating factors such as fnp and, especially, abundant l-o-s blocking terrain which, as we should all know, today is considered a STANDARD feature of any battlefield due to the current meta. Which of course means that 72" range will not often matter, and that characters will just have a chance to avoid being targeted altogether (especially if they are mobile, and all the more so if we are talking about precious support characters which do not need to engage the enemy directly, such as AM officers and Eldar farseers).

 

Can you improve the above performance with CPs?

Can you improve the above performance with sheer luck?

Can you exploit the potential threat to apply pressure on an opponent and influence his tactics and movements?

 

Of course, yes to all three: these are *practical* considerations. But combine this to the above rather swingy performance odds, and you'll get a piece which is, plainly put, unreliable.

Not unplayable, certainly funny, but just as certainly not broken. At 85 pts, you can afford the gamble, but he's not exactly super cheap. Had his rifle been Heavy 2, and his pts cost perhaps around 100, he would have ranked at least as *dangerous* since the double shots would have counterbalanced the inherent unreliability of the d6-based system.

 

All of the above makes the Vindicare mostly a 'play for fun' piece. Still an improvement over the 'essentially useless crap' of his Index version, hey.

Nothing wrong with that - as I said, I quite like the new Assassins, also because I avoid competitive games. I will certainly try a Vindicare in some games - why not? He's simply nothing to write home about. But then again, everyone's free to believe a mirage if he likes it.

 

edit: typos and a small clarification

[D3L]

 

Time to bring them out of retirement

 

*snip*

 

DM

I love the old assassin models, wish I had more of them but I only have the other Eversor model where he's holding some poor sods head and has his power sword out

 

just wait, knowing how adept the Adeptus Computantis in Nottingham are, there's likely going to be a "made to order"/reprint of the old metal ;-) 

 

after all, it's what I'd do...

[Panzer]

The ironic thing is that you say in theory he is good and in practice he isn't but your whole post is just theory as well. ^^

[Feral_80]

If you think that mentioning (unmodifiable) % chances is theory, I suggest you revise your notions and reread my post. 

Theory is yelling that he is broken and insane and unfair and he will command the whole battlefield due to his great range and everybody will die horribly to his might, as some people have done. Practice is showing that, well, no, the game works a bit differently from that.

[Panzer]

Agree to disagree then. The topic is not to clarify what's theory and what is not though so I won't continue here.

[Wassa]

How is a Vindicare vs Culexus shooting resolved?

 

Culexus changes the opponents BS to 6+. Vindicare always hits on a 2+ if it hasn't moved regardless of modifiers.

 

I'd say  that changing BS to 6+ isn't a modifier, it's a stat change...

but then the vindicare specifically says it's always a 2+, rather than use their BS, so I guess he hits on a 2+?

[H311fi5h]

Same as Dark Reapers. The rule states they hit on 2+/3+, so they don't actually use their ballistic skill. Meaning the Culexus' rule does nothing.

[Panzer]

How is a Vindicare vs Culexus shooting resolved?

 

Culexus changes the opponents BS to 6+. Vindicare always hits on a 2+ if it hasn't moved regardless of modifiers.

 

I'd say  that changing BS to 6+ isn't a modifier, it's a stat change...

but then the vindicare specifically says it's always a 2+, rather than use their BS, so I guess he hits on a 2+?

The Vindicare doesn't use its BS at all if it doesn't move so the Culexus special rule wouldn't have any effect. However if the Vindicare moved he'd use his BS of now 6+ but also suffer from moving with a Heavy weapon so he couldn't hit the Culexus at all without outside help.

[Karhedron]

I'm just not sure when exactly you would pick the Callidus over the other choices.

When facing Imperial Soup with that omnipresent Castellan, Rotate Ion Shields now costs 4 CPs. Even with the Loyal32, those CPs are gonna run out some time. Ditto Dark Eldar with Agents of Vect.

[Hurricane Chuck]

 

 

Few pics of some of my assassins, as promised earlier on in the thread. 

Few old school models, plus 1 or 2 conversions I've done. Hope you like them.

Chuck

[lash144]

 

I'm just not sure when exactly you would pick the Callidus over the other choices.

When facing Imperial Soup with that omnipresent Castellan, Rotate Ion Shields now costs 4 CPs. Even with the Loyal32, those CPs are gonna run out some time. Ditto Dark Eldar with Agents of Vect.

It has a 50% chance to cost so much tbh.

 

Also callidus can deepstrike in less than 9" away which makes screening her out pretty hard, so you can use her to snipe weak characters like warlocks (especially now sine her sword is damage 2)

[Wassa]

I think Reign of Confusion is also a great psychological ability to have free on the first turn.

 

Sometimes they might wait out the first turn to use borderline stratagems. As a guard player I could use Take Cover on an infantry squad for 1CP, but I wouldn't risk it if it would cost 2CP.

Then you hit them again with it on the second turn and they start to panic and either burn through their CP or wait another turn. 

[Ishagu]

Callidus is awesome I think. Depending on the army you face she can have a big impact.

 

And she has a chance to quickly kill some minor character early to generate an extra CP.

[Raven1]

Callidus is awesome I think. Depending on the army you face she can have a big impact.

 

And she has a chance to quickly kill some minor character early to generate an extra CP.

The depending on the army is a big issue but honestly that is why 1cp strategem could work well. You just drop in whoever you need.

[Ishagu]

Yeah exactly. The Eversor might otherwise be the most generally useful as a deep-striking guy with a 3D6 charge and lots of attacks can work well in the current meta.