GreyCrow Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Sorry Unseen, I was talking about the nice graph done by momerathe ;) I'm not talking about a Gman blob, just a standard blob. If you do the math and the geometry, it's by far the best use for Troops. It seems that you have a good system going on, I'd like to challenge it and put my analytics to the test :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 I'm perfectly aware of the nature of 8th edition and can attest to taking large numbers of Troops in Space Marines lists as being generally detrimental to your list competitiveness. If you're planning on spamming Infiltrators then you're going to lose games. What is a poor unit? A unit that has no value in comparison to the army list or is inferior to choices around it. I've pointed it out several times and folk seen to gloss over it rather conveniently, but here it is again: - Infiltrators don't provide the killing potential to compete with other options in the Space Marines Codex. - They're too expensive to compete with other screen units in the Space Marines Codex. - They're not survivable enough to compete with more powerful options or cheaper screens. - The points drop needed to bring them into a position of value to an army is substantial. I wouldn't pay more than 80pts for such a unit and even then it's an expensive screen but at least harder to kill than a Scout for the points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Let's have a game on Vassal next week and figure it out :D I will be glad to kick some butt with an Infiltrator heavy list or lose and provide glory to the winner! I've done all I can to present the values of the Infiltrators, and I think people that are looking to use them now have a blueprint on how to maximize their effectiveness. If some people want them to suck and not be convinced, and preferring to ignore evidence and facts, it's out of my control. ;) Still though, I challenge whoever wants to prove Infiltrators suck to a game on Vassal to back up their claim! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 I don't have access to Vassal but would happily play a 40K game against anyone to see how things go. That's what I love about the hobby - hammering out discussion and theory in good humour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 I want to replace my three five man scout squads with three five man Infiltrator squads. They will be Blood Angels. What I can tell you is I play in a very competitive meta but I will find the points for these guys. In a universe overcrowded with cultists, guardsmen, rippers, nurglings, scarabs blah blah blah the scout is elite... to me the Infiltrator will be a demigod . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrZakalwe Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 - The points drop needed to bring them into a position of value to an army is substantial. I wouldn't pay more than 80pts for such a unit and even then it's an expensive screen but at least harder to kill than a Scout for the points. I agree with a drop but not to 16ppm. That's crazy levels of efficiency for a unit that can forward deploy and completely deny most deepstrike charges (because even the ones with bonuses that normally allow a 9" charge to be made semi reliably can rarely declare on a target more than 12" away). At that cost you'd never see any other space marine troops and scouts aren't exactly inefficient right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighMarshalAmp Posted March 15, 2019 Author Share Posted March 15, 2019 I want to replace my three five man scout squads with three five man Infiltrator squads. They will be Blood Angels. What I can tell you is I play in a very competitive meta but I will find the points for these guys. In a universe overcrowded with cultists, guardsmen, rippers, nurglings, scarabs blah blah blah the scout is elite... to me the Infiltrator will be a demigod .But if Scouts are elite, then what's your chaff?And can your Scouts effectively clear those hoardes? If so, please share your list, I wanna rip it off ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 You don't need any chaff to win... don't drink that koolaid kids . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Angel Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 What Units do we have that are competitive for their points? I just tried to assault some sort of thousand sons flamed that had AP -3 with my terminators only to lose them all. Didn't realize they were so strong. Then I couldn't even charge with the lobby cause the same thing would have happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 What Units do we have that are competitive for their points? I just tried to assault some sort of thousand sons flamed that had AP -3 with my terminators only to lose them all. Didn't realize they were so strong. Then I couldn't even charge with the lobby cause the same thing would have happened. Sounds like you need some Suppressors ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 Vanguard are very efficient at the moment. What Units do we have that are competitive for their points? I just tried to assault some sort of thousand sons flamed that had AP -3 with my terminators only to lose them all. Didn't realize they were so strong. Then I couldn't even charge with the lobby cause the same thing would have happened. Sounds like you need some Suppressors ;) Off topic but totally yes; Suppressors are much more useful for Classic Marines than Primaris. Vanguard and Terminators can benefit from their Overwatch denial whereas Aggressors would rather stand there shooting twice than charge and Reivers already have Shock Grenades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 The odd single Flamer in a unit is only a little bit more annoying than regular overwatch, but yeah if it's a unit choked full with flamers and if they even have some AP you definitely want to either drown that unit in sacrificial bodies first (so not an option for pure Marine lists), charge with a vehicle first (so a Rhino as it's unlikely for even 5 flamer with AP-3 to kill that one) or use something gimmicky like Suppressors or Reiver grenades before you send in your actual guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy-inquisitor Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 I don't think anyone is scared of 11 WS3+, S4 attacks first turn. The only reason to justify Infiltrators is an expensive screen and if you throw them away at the opponent you'll just waste them. And what are you charging so effortlessly without an opponent's own screens preventing it? I can see the idea here, it is similar to when I charge my Stealth Suits in on turn 1. Charge the chaff screen with something reasonably durable to pin them back into their own deployment zone. Now the heavy hitters need to hold back to avoid getting ahead of the screen. A smaller more elite unit should be able to pick their spot so the chaff cannot bring their full numbers to bear immediately with pile-in so it takes them a couple of combat phases to fight their way clear. Its not the most innovative or amazing tactic in the world but when it works you effectively turn their chaff screen into a liability. Think of it as aggressive screening rather than passive sit-and-wait screening. Having been playing T'au for most of 8th I have learned the tactical power of assaulting with units that don't really hurt anything in combat - it is a play to take control of the tempo of the game and deny your opponent the ability to take the initiative in the way that they intended. The unit that do this are of course sacrificial pawns. They rarely last beyond turn 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 Using the charge phase as a tool for extra movement and board control is what high level players swear by. I've lost count of how many times I've read a Nick Nanavati article about it. Infiltrators bring this flexibility. And unlike most other units, getting them bogged down in combat to slow an advance doesn't mean you're trading a lot of shooting power lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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