Tamiel Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Infiltrators should not cost 1 more point than intercessors for all the bonus rules they bring. I strongly disagree. They also bring less dakka. I tried some list building with these new units and even at 95 points per unit I find myself using Intercessors instead. For that extra 20 points (two units) I can, for example, upgrade a Dakka Inceptor Squad to a Dakka Redemptor Dreadnought. Their special rules are nice as a bonus but they aren't worth losing out on firepower. Honestly, because of the loss of Dakka, even at 17 points per model I would most likely use two squads of Infiltrators and one of Intercessors. I'd do the same at 18 points, at 19 points it would be three squads of Intercessors unless I really cannot use the 10 points for a significant increase in dakka or survivability elsewhere. Then you are not looking at infiltrators correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unseen Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Intercessors already have poor damage-to-points output. Extra deployment options and marginal utility aside, infiltrators are even worse on that metric, and again, intercessors aren't even up to par. Paying 22 points for a model that effectively has a bolter is laughable. 2 Scouts are literally just better than 1 infiltrators. Twice the firepower, same number of wounds, slightly worse armor save, don't die to multi damage weapons, for same price. Getting to show up where ever you want is cute, but it isn't nearly as useful when you don't kill anything when you get there and also aren't hard to kill. Eliminators have potential though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK0SIAN Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Captain Idaho has put my thoughts into text more or less exactly. I think the vanguard release would have been nice, once the primaris were fleshed out. Wave 1 primaris always felt to me like half or maybe a third of the whole deal and I've been waiting to buy into the second half. The assault marines, anti tank, terminators etc. Vanguard would have been a nice expansion to that. As it is it just feels like bloat. The worst bit is the additional bolter variants, shotguns, choom, anything but a slightly different scope and slightly different weapon profile. Urgh. I have to agree. Themed releases are a nice idea that I hope they continue in the future. But this one feels like a relatively niche theme to release when there are still core parts of the range missing. It’s like they tried to do the decoration before they’d finished baking the cake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adalger Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 To me Infiltrators are just the sneaky addition to the Primaris range, especially for those who are new to the hobby or who are about building a new all-Primaris army. Scouts are more efficient sneaky units in the codex but Infiltrators/Eliminators are probably not designed to compete but to replace them. This is just another step from oldmarines to a full range of newmarines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 If GW can release an updated errata with reduced point costs in the coming week people will be very happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Infiltrators would have to be at least the same points as Intercessors if not cheaper or people won't be happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 I think they should be the same or 1 point more. The deployment ability is very good for a Troop unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 It's really not. It's not going to stop BA first turn charges, slow down a Knight or Custodes Jetbikers, stop an Ork Horde or protect your army vs shooting death from Eldar or Astra Millitarum. Against Genestealer Cults or the handful of players who teleport an assault force in then it might be useful. Very nichè. Oh I suppose against Daemonkin using Daemon summoning it might be good (though that in itself is kinda weak). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 And why should basic troops stop all that completely? They can get into position without needing transports and screen the army if played correctly. If you don't think that Infiltrators can be useful if pointed more competitively then you can't rate Scouts much either? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Scouts are useful for cheap screens and cheap battalions. What positions are you putting these bolter Marines into that is so powerful and useful? 5 Tactical Marines riding inside a Rhino is 137pts. That's 27pts more expensive for more survivability and more firepower, faster movement and decent target saturation. 10 Scouts with Bolters is 110pts. Similar number of wounds, better firepower but weaker armour save. Crucially it's 2 units out of a Battalion rather than 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 These guys can be just as effective as a screen as Scouts. Much, much harder to deal with with shooting, better in close combat, better at crating a safe zone. They just aren't worth their current cost. At 17/18 they'd be better than Scouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Scouts will always be the cheaper option on account of being cheaper. I know you want to promote Primaris as the best but even with Chapter Approved points drops, Primaris just aren't as competitive. If you want compare all 4 Troops choices then yes Infiltrators the same points as Intercessors will be equivalent to each other. Scouts will still trump them both. It's the same reason 5 Plague Marines aren't chosen over 10 Pox Walkers. Sure they're more survivable than the Pox Walkers, but points costs you're just throwing good money after bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Angel Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Infiltrators can stop first turn assaults.... pop three of them as close as you can against the enemy deployment. Sure you have to stay 9 inches away, but how they have to stay 12 inches away from that. Then after deployment use the commander trait to redeploy them. You just pushed them furrther into their deployment and they still can't get to you. Making infiltrators cheaper than intercessors because the gun isn't as good is saying that all of their abilities arnt worth anything. Sure it may be situational but those abilities have to come at some cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathstrider Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Infiltrators can stop first turn assaults.... pop three of them as close as you can against the enemy deployment. Sure you have to stay 9 inches away, but how they have to stay 12 inches away from that. Then after deployment use the commander trait to redeploy them. You just pushed them furrther into their deployment and they still can't get to you. Making infiltrators cheaper than intercessors because the gun isn't as good is saying that all of their abilities arnt worth anything. Sure it may be situational but those abilities have to come at some cost. Is that right? I think from the leaks the omni-scrambler said (emphasis mine) "Enemy units that are set up as reinforcements cannot be set up within 12" of this unit" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Yeah that is the case. There is no way they stop first turn charges any more than any other unit since reinforcement can't come in until turn 2 anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Didn’t something similar happen in AoS where the Sequitors made Liberators redundant because of their built in abilities? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorin Helm-splitter Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 I’d like to see Infiltrators costed at 18 points that would be fine. I do see scouts going the way of the Dodo bird. Its going to be awhile before that happens if it happens, the core rules for this edition really favor hordes mixed with super elite detachments. 8th is really popular, it'll be awhile before they rock the boat. To me Infiltrators are just the sneaky addition to the Primaris range, especially for those who are new to the hobby or who are about building a new all-Primaris army. Scouts are more efficient sneaky units in the codex but Infiltrators/Eliminators are probably not designed to compete but to replace them. This is just another step from oldmarines to a full range of newmarines. I like infiltrators I do think they need to be in that 18 point range but they do provide alternative deployment options. They funny thing is when they get released they probably will have another weapon option and the sky will be falling because they're too good lol. As far as replacing the classic marine lineup Its really hard for me to tell what GW plans on doing. They have gotten a lot better on communicating with us, but they don't really try to clear a lot of this up. My bet is that classic marine kits will stay on the shelves till they stop selling, and if people keep buying enough of them you might see new models in that scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Scouts will always be the cheaper option on account of being cheaper. I know you want to promote Primaris as the best but even with Chapter Approved points drops, Primaris just aren't as competitive. If you want compare all 4 Troops choices then yes Infiltrators the same points as Intercessors will be equivalent to each other. Scouts will still trump them both. It's the same reason 5 Plague Marines aren't chosen over 10 Pox Walkers. Sure they're more survivable than the Pox Walkers, but points costs you're just throwing good money after bad. If Infiltrators cost 17/18 points each they are better than Scouts, simple as that. It doesn't matter that a Scout is 11 points, they will be inferior and will cost substantially more to gain the same performances. At 22 they are playable but not worthwhile ahead of existing options. As for Plague Marines, that is a poor comparison as beyond their force org slot the two are substantially different. Plague Marines can make up the backbone of a highly offensive infantry army. MSU squads with 3 Plasmas each, rapid firing in 18" is a viable tactic and different from the function of pox walkers. Also let's not get bogged down into the "is it the best competitive option?" argument. Truth is that nothing in the Marine army including Scouts is particularly competitive at the very highest level. That's not to say that you can't make a good army that can engage most opponents and perform well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighMarshalAmp Posted March 10, 2019 Author Share Posted March 10, 2019 As far as replacing the classic marine lineup Its really hard for me to tell what GW plans on doing. They have gotten a lot better on communicating with us, but they don't really try to clear a lot of this up. My bet is that classic marine kits will stay on the shelves till they stop selling, and if people keep buying enough of them you might see new models in that scale. New Oldmarines? Never. I just hope they will give us an Index to play them in the next edition or two. Wiping away the legacy of 8 Editions and rendering the bulk of their poster boy models unplayable... that'd be a decision on EA levels of dickishness. And now, they add not one, not two, but three additional models of Bolters in one box. Why? It was so nice to have the Bolt Rifle with it's Assault and Heavy variants. If anything, I'd have wanted a Master Crafted Bolt Rifle for the HQs. But no, C:SM without bloat seems too nice to ever be true... About the Troop choices though, Scouts are fine and all, but consider their looks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Well Ishagu you can believe that if you need to but I'm confident that most players make up their own minds otherwise regarding just how competitive Infiltrators are. I do agree that we shouldn't get bogged down in just how competitive they or anything is. But the rules are important to be serviceable at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Infiltrators should not cost 1 more point than intercessors for all the bonus rules they bring. For all the things you're giving up by choosing them over Intercessors, I think they should. To me Infiltrators are just the sneaky addition to the Primaris range, especially for those who are new to the hobby or who are about building a new all-Primaris army. Scouts are more efficient sneaky units in the codex but Infiltrators/Eliminators are probably not designed to compete but to replace them. This is just another step from oldmarines to a full range of newmarines. It would be very nice and appreciated if GW could go about actually replacing these units for once. Each time they release them, they are significantly worse than the unit they're supposedly replacing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Agreed, but for what you receive compared to the value of 2 Scouts is inappropriately point costed. They perform close in many ways but I think 10 Scouts are objectively much better over 5 Infiltrators. The Scouts defensive ability is less but their offensive output is much greater. The denial is a wash due to quantity having it's own quality and lastly, the ability of the Scout to generate CP by filling out the Battalion requirement. As many have mentioned we can hope (heck even fairly expect) the price to go down to 20? but that's at least one FAQ away probably 2019 Chapter Approved. I can appreciate the practice of starting high and lowering out of caution but one would think GW and it's beta testers in the community could math-hammer a bit more accurately than they have. Which is strange because some units come out just fine. I haven't heard a peep about the Librarian being over-costed or OP. Rambling finished. I let my hopes for an infiltrating Primaris unit to be costed proportionally to Intercessors as Scouts are to Tacticals fill me with expectations and that's on me I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Well Ishagu you can believe that if you need to but I'm confident that most players make up their own minds otherwise regarding just how competitive Infiltrators are. I do agree that we shouldn't get bogged down in just how competitive they or anything is. But the rules are important to be serviceable at least. Make up their minds about what? I'm saying the new units are too expensive to be worthwhile over exusting options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 This is what you've said: Scouts will always be the cheaper option on account of being cheaper. I know you want to promote Primaris as the best but even with Chapter Approved points drops, Primaris just aren't as competitive. If you want compare all 4 Troops choices then yes Infiltrators the same points as Intercessors will be equivalent to each other. Scouts will still trump them both. It's the same reason 5 Plague Marines aren't chosen over 10 Pox Walkers. Sure they're more survivable than the Pox Walkers, but points costs you're just throwing good money after bad. If Infiltrators cost 17/18 points each they are better than Scouts, simple as that. It doesn't matter that a Scout is 11 points, they will be inferior and will cost substantially more to gain the same performances. At 22 they are playable but not worthwhile ahead of existing options. These guys can be just as effective as a screen as Scouts. Much, much harder to deal with with shooting, better in close combat, better at crating a safe zone. They just aren't worth their current cost. At 17/18 they'd be better than Scouts. Only a few posts above you've stated Infiltrators are superior Troops choice and argued against the fact that even at the same points as Intercessors, Infiltrators are just not that effective a choice. They won't be better than Scouts unless they're about 16pts a model. Any more they're more expensive than their utility and killing power brings in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johanhgg Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Im happy im playing with units i find cool or fluffy rather than to be as efficient as possible. My armies will contain these, they will have terminators and other units which arent considered best in slot. Will my armies die? Sure, but they look cool doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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