Captain Idaho Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 Help, referring to buffs, of which none of the powers can work on any non-vanguard units. So entirely true. Besides, why pick that one comment out? I'm not even a Primaris fan but I'm annoyed how GW released a themed force that has no bearing on Primaris or what the range needed. We talk of bloat and how the old Marines are bloated... did we need another 3 variants of Bolters? Another Troops choice no one would take? More snipers? More Captain and Lieutenant variants? Primaris releases feel lost right now. GW doesn't know what to do with them. It's frustrating me as I know they've pinned their colours to the mast and Classic Marines aren't coming back and I want the company to be successful. But this release is just nothing that was asked for and outside the boxed set I doubt many folk will buy the individual boxes at the prices Primaris are going for these days. /rant over. Feel free to reply, I'll read it for the dissenting opinion etc (it's how we grow) but I'm not getting into this - I'm out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 I dunno, I do feel like for someone playing pure primaris, this stuff is cool, it adds variety and does it with unexpected units. The librarian is cool, I like his powers, especially the one to do a mortal wound and gain a CP! I like the snipers, they aren't broken but I feel like they would do pretty good work and are still a low enough threat to not be target priority. Infiltrators seem good to me, as I said, i would use a squad for sure. I need the suppressors, they are exactly the kind or heavy hitting unit I'd like, and I feel like they'll work nicely in my blood angels army. I don't see much point to the lieutenant or captain, but they are themed so that's okay. As far as different bolter types go, I personally have no issue with it, intact I quite like the idea that each units weapons will be able to be balanced individually in the future, that can only be good for the game. And the different options all appear on data sheet so it'll be easy enough to manage. Would I like a proper melee unit? Yeah I'm a blood angels player first and primaris player second (like the primaris from the recent astorath short). Do I care for breachers? Not particularly. Would I like jet bikes? Yeah! Do I want proper veterans? Yeah! There is more to come so I'm fine with the current progress. Also, Jes and the team absolutely do have a plan for primaris and it's mostly mapped put and was before the first release. But it's not a 1 year plan, seems more like a 5 year plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 We really shouldn't be getting upset. I feel that by the time I've painted a few units there will be an Errrata/FAQ or something like that. Remember the a Knight Armiger was 230 points at first, then shortly after it cost 160. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 Help, referring to buffs, of which none of the powers can work on any non-vanguard units. So entirely true. Besides, why pick that one comment out? I'm not even a Primaris fan but I'm annoyed how GW released a themed force that has no bearing on Primaris or what the range needed. We talk of bloat and how the old Marines are bloated... did we need another 3 variants of Bolters? Another Troops choice no one would take? More snipers? More Captain and Lieutenant variants? Primaris releases feel lost right now. GW doesn't know what to do with them. It's frustrating me as I know they've pinned their colours to the mast and Classic Marines aren't coming back and I want the company to be successful. But this release is just nothing that was asked for and outside the boxed set I doubt many folk will buy the individual boxes at the prices Primaris are going for these days. /rant over. Feel free to reply, I'll read it for the dissenting opinion etc (it's how we grow) but I'm not getting into this - I'm out. I will pick out one comment - lots of us were asking all along for more mobile Primaris characters. It just so happens we've received half of this with the deployment tricks of the Captain and the deep strike of the LT. Sure, they can't exactly keep up with the faster units after awhile, but it's much closer to an actual request than people give it credit for. Sure - not exactly what we had in mind, but in this case they're similar to a constant demand and actually do give value. Unfortunately the captain is so ridiculously expensive that I'm not even sure he's worth considering in a fluff game. But all your other points are pretty spot on. The thing I keep realizing is that this release could have been exciting and successful even if it wasn't what anybody asked for...if only they didn't repeat the same nightmare mistakes over and over again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Reinhard Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 The captain is an odd one. He's got a shopping bag of abilities, both a camo cloak and omni scramblers. His cost may look justified if you look at all the abilities, allow for the fact that he's got a decent amount of wounds, but it comes apart in practise because package, great as it is with all these little bits and bobs doesn't end up justifying the total cost in practice. He doesn't even have a power weapon at that price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 I don't mind these new Vanguard Primaris at all either. If I hadn't a specific theme for my chapter in mind I'd jump on this release to be fair. I always loved sneaky type units and deployment shenanigans, hence why my T'au army features lots of Stealth Suits, Kroot and Pathfinders. I'll definitely add a unit of Infiltrators and a unit of Eliminators to my army. Potentially two units of Suppressors as well even though I'm not sure why I'd want to do that over Inceptors except for the fact they carry giant cannons. If I'd be playing a less or differently themed chapter I'd probably double these numbers. Help, referring to buffs, of which none of the powers can work on any non-vanguard units. So entirely true. Besides, why pick that one comment out? I'm not even a Primaris fan but I'm annoyed how GW released a themed force that has no bearing on Primaris or what the range needed. We talk of bloat and how the old Marines are bloated... did we need another 3 variants of Bolters? Another Troops choice no one would take? More snipers? More Captain and Lieutenant variants? Primaris releases feel lost right now. GW doesn't know what to do with them. It's frustrating me as I know they've pinned their colours to the mast and Classic Marines aren't coming back and I want the company to be successful. But this release is just nothing that was asked for and outside the boxed set I doubt many folk will buy the individual boxes at the prices Primaris are going for these days. /rant over. Feel free to reply, I'll read it for the dissenting opinion etc (it's how we grow) but I'm not getting into this - I'm out. As for why I picked out only that one comment out? Because it was the only one I felt I wanted to add something to obviously. There's so much chatter about this release going on all over the board in various subforums I honestly don't read half of it anymore as it just repeats itself and replying everywhere the same feels like spam to me. I also don't interpret 'help' as just 'buff' as everything that hinders the opponent also helps my guys in my book. About the bloat? The only bloat I see are the Bolter variants but I don't mind it all that much. A cover ignoring Bolter would be interesting on a unit so hopefully the Lieutenants loadout is just foreshadowing. The Infiltrators special Bolter seems pointless as the auto-wound makes barely a difference but since it's its own bolter type it's something GW can adjust in the future without having it affecting other units which might not need that a buff. The Captain Sniper Bolter I'm perfectly fine with though. Sure giving him the Eliminator Bolter variant would've been even more awesome but we also don't see Captains with Lascannons. I doubt we'll see that Bolter on a regular unit like ever as we already have a sniping unit now but it's fine for the Captain to have something special. I really don't feel like GW doesn't know what to do with them. It feels like a very thoroughly planned model line stretched out over several years. Kinda exactly what they've said at the beginning of this edition. It's okay if the release isn't for you as it has a very specific theme in mind that got ignored by most Marine players in the past, but there will be more releases which aren't focussed on the same theme as this one so they might be more of interest to you. This release wasn't asked for by you and by several others but that doesn't hold true for the whole community and many others are stoked about it. Not every release has to please every type of player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Reinhard Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 As one of the "guilty of pushing the reduce the bloat narrative" (or at least, I found it at the time to be among the more plausible part-motivations behind what I was seeing) I feel like recent insights and developments (major parts of these being of course the upcoming release of shadowspear, but maybe to an even larger degree the two voxcasts with Jes Goodwin) has caused me abandon that point of view. It was far from everything I thought was the reason behind Primaris, and the rest got pretty much reinforced by this additional insight. That said I'm expecting lots of different units and types of armor and roles in the future. I just hope heavier close combat guys come sooner rather than later... and I hope we don't have to wait quite as long before the next wave of primaris hits like we did this time. That said x2, I think the rumor engine pieces of a while ago, that definately felt like they were primaris (flamer bit, vehicle ones?) might possibly all be vanguard related. I woudln't epect an all flamer hellblaster type unit of "intercessors" to be coming at any rate, buit you can never really know now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorin Helm-splitter Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 I think the problem with the new Vanguard is something many people won't want to face - the concept is flawed. They created a light recon force as a new release. Ambitious but ultimately not something anybody asked for. The Community Primaris fans have been saying for ages they want a decent assault unit, cheaper transport, new weapons to rival Hellblasters (Onslaught Cannons), even Breacher Shield Intercessors. Nobody asked for camo Primaris with light weapons. Fast moving heavy weapons is a flawed concept since you're paying for speed you just won't use. I'm not sure what is going on with GW and their Primaris line but they haven't built on the existing line with this release but a line that seems parallel. Even the psychic powers can't help the existing Primaris Marines! I don't think the concept was flawed, there was a lot of excitement about this box set before the rumored points leak. I think the execution may be off but there is market for marines like this. I'll get the snipers and infiltrators when they're released because rules get updated and I'm a slow painter lol. its also worth pointing out that this is probably not the entire wave. So they may address some of the wish listed items soon just not in a box set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 Imo the infiltrators would be perfect at 18 points each. The Suppressors would also be a fantastic unit if they had Las Rippers as a weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 I'd put the Infiltrators at 1-2 points more than Intercessors as well, yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 At 18pts each they still won't be competitive but they'd be much more useful. It's likely what will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 Sure hope so they are basically twice the points for a scout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 Sure hope so they are basically twice the points for a scout. I'd guess at 18 or 19 points. That being said, compared to scouts they have +1W, +1A and +1Sv. They have a better basic gun than scouts (albeit marginally), have the same infiltrate ability as scouts and get the omni things and smoke grenades. That's quite a lot over scouts. Sure you may not want it all, in which case, don't use infiltrators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 There are a few drawbacks compared to scouts. - higher minimum cost so not as cheap to fill a Battalion with - they are more vulnerable to multi-damage attacks - less melee attacks if you'd equip your scouts for melee (though that equals out with the higher amount of dakka in that case I'd say) - no Heavy Bolter or Missile Launcher for those fancy Mortal Wound Stratagems If you don't need those things the Infiltrators are just better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 Sure hope so they are basically twice the points for a scout.I'd guess at 18 or 19 points. That being said, compared to scouts they have +1W, +1A and +1Sv. They have a better basic gun than scouts (albeit marginally), have the same infiltrate ability as scouts and get the omni things and smoke grenades. That's quite a lot over scouts. Sure you may not want it all, in which case, don't use infiltrators. Currently at 22 points (rumoured) they are exactly the same price as two scouts. So a true comparison is that Infiltrators have the same wounds, same attacks, smoke grenade, a 3+ save, and half the shooting as the equivalent in scouts. All while scouts can cover the board for deep strike denial functionally just as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Shift Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 Captain Idaho has put my thoughts into text more or less exactly. I think the vanguard release would have been nice, once the primaris were fleshed out. Wave 1 primaris always felt to me like half or maybe a third of the whole deal and I've been waiting to buy into the second half. The assault marines, anti tank, terminators etc. Vanguard would have been a nice expansion to that. As it is it just feels like bloat. The worst bit is the additional bolter variants, shotguns, choom, anything but a slightly different scope and slightly different weapon profile. Urgh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 The holy bolt gun is what marines are all about. I like the bolt guns myself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 The holy bolt gun rifle is what marines are all about. I like the bolt guns rifle myselfFixed ;) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 Sure hope so they are basically twice the points for a scout. I'd guess at 18 or 19 points. That being said, compared to scouts they have +1W, +1A and +1Sv. They have a better basic gun than scouts (albeit marginally), have the same infiltrate ability as scouts and get the omni things and smoke grenades. That's quite a lot over scouts. Sure you may not want it all, in which case, don't use infiltrators. The slur of the weapon options Scouts have though is harder to quantify than just the cost of the weapon though. 22 is just ridiculous though. With as Scouts still an option i can’t see Infiltrators making high competitive list at this point. I want to use them much as any other Son of Corax but at more than 20 I can justify using them in a competitive game (seeing as I want to try at least 15 to 20 of them in an army). I practically never include anything that happens on a “6” in a game plan. It’s a fluff rule fine but completely unreliable. No AP doesn’t bother me against tee shirt armies. I find losing the -1 versus power armor or 4+ armies the real issue. Making a save go from 33% to 50% is huge. The smoke grenade is one use (and you can’t fire?) situational. It’s a situation you can generate so it’s better than their Bolter but not by much. The deep strike denial buff. Impressive but the three inches looks minimally useful against the armies that it should help the most against like Orks/ Tyranids/ and GSC. They’re so fast it a crap shoot that three inches is a true difference maker. I’m a fan of the Infiltrators. I just think though numerous, the abilities they have been given are marginally and situationally useful to the point they lack the focus that would have been preferred and overall truly just on par with a Intercessors in my opinion. Fact is if we ever do get a light Primaris transport Infiltrators will have to really drop to be a choice on anyone’s comprletitve table. Ifs and buts wishes and nuts. :) Apologies for the rant. I really do think the future is bright for Astartes this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Reinhard Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 The holy bolt gun rifle is what marines are all about. I like the bolt guns rifle myselfFixed . Infiltrators use bolt carbines though :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 I should have said bolt weapons I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 I’d like to see Infiltrators costed at 18 points that would be fine. I do see scouts going the way of the Dodo bird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamiel Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 Infiltrators should not cost 1 more point than intercessors for all the bonus rules they bring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nalim Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Infiltrators should not cost 1 more point than intercessors for all the bonus rules they bring. I strongly disagree. They also bring less dakka. I tried some list building with these new units and even at 95 points per unit I find myself using Intercessors instead. For that extra 20 points (two units) I can, for example, upgrade a Dakka Inceptor Squad to a Dakka Redemptor Dreadnought. Their special rules are nice as a bonus but they aren't worth losing out on firepower. Honestly, because of the loss of Dakka, even at 17 points per model I would most likely use two squads of Infiltrators and one of Intercessors. I'd do the same at 18 points, at 19 points it would be three squads of Intercessors unless I really cannot use the 10 points for a significant increase in dakka or survivability elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Reinhard Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 EDIT: I don't think I can read Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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