What might the new Chaos releases mean for us?

[HighMarshalAmp]

Now first off, I was thrilled to hear about the new Terminator and Marine kits - if Chaos don't get Primaris (yet?), that means that for some time, someone has to at least make rules for Terminators (and as GK show us, rules don't necessarily mean having a rat's chance in hell of winning, but still...) and those rules could just be transferred to Loyalist Termies minus one DttfE to get our old Terminators a new lease on life...

 

And even if GW decide that 9th will see a Primaris only-Codex (Yes please!) but no Oldmarines Index (C'mon, GW!) AND that copy/ pasting Chaos point costs into an e-book exclusive Astartes Index for Oldmarines in 9th would bee too much work for their gentle souls (and they better don't bring up the bloat argument after introducing a load of new bolters in Shadowspear), there's now something our old Termies can be used for, albeit as counts-as...

 

So yeah, any thoughts on how C:CSM II might affect our/ your minis future?

[Lord Marshal]

With things like the Lord Discordant, my impression is they're trying to make the Chaos range more distinct than Spiky Loyal Marines. To that end, my thought is that they'll continue to run Chaos Marines using OldMarine marks but push the Loyalist versions further aside.

 

It will go Full Primaris Head for the Loyalists, doubling down on that sleeker, tactic00l appearance, shedding more of the Gothic/ornate designs with the possible exception of whatever spin-off Chapters (Dark Angels, Black Templar, etc) get.

 

In that way, OldMarine models will - literally - be heretical.

[Toxichobbit]

I own 15+ Devastator's. I predict that they'll be able to move and fire without penalty. This makes me happy.

[Panzer]

With things like the Lord Discordant, my impression is they're trying to make the Chaos range more distinct than Spiky Loyal Marines. To that end, my thought is that they'll continue to run Chaos Marines using OldMarine marks but push the Loyalist versions further aside.

 

 ^this

 

Classic Marines but heavily influenced by the warp and with new unique units for CSM and Primaris for loyalists.

[Rik Lightstar]

I think it shows quite clearly that they aren't afraid to revisit old staples of an army like the standard Chaos Marine Troops Choice, the Havoc and the Obliterator (not so much with the Terminators) and give them a seriously updated look along with some new weapon options and rules they've not had before. Havocs are the clearest example of this but the others too.

 

Also rules like the Command Point buff for the Red Corsairs are a good sign too.

 

Next edition of a Marine Codex could well hold some surprises I think with maybe some updates to units that we wouldn't expect them on. Bikes and Scouts seem good candidates on that front.

 

The bloat argument doesn't really apply to "bolter flavours" on Primaris I'm afraid, they all appear on the Datasheet and that's it, there's still only 1-6 weapons a unit for Primaris which is WAY less than a Tactical or Devastator Squad. Additionally, each unit having differently named weapons allows GW to change the weapon for a single unit rather than having to make a list of exceptions.

 

Rik

[bolvar]

In the short future, the new CSM means that we have a even wider selection of targets to purge brothers

[Red_Shift]

I've been thinking more about the different characters that have emerged with the chaos and genestealer codexes. Very specific roles which tell us a little more about the character of that faction. With that in mind, I'm hopeful for less generic lieutenants and more characters like the Emperor's champion, master of recruits etc. Very thematic models with interesting mechanics. Personally Id love to see an exiled marine as a 'lone wolf' type character who can come to help out a chapter in need and spends his time off on specific quests. Would really give an opportunity to make up own backstories and conversions, obviously with a cool gw sculpt to inspire.

 

I think they are trying to divulge the two lines apart and I would hope that we might get a 'true scale' terminator kit in the same way intercessors are more or less a 'true scale' tactical marine.

[Captain Idaho]

I hold my fingers crossed in the hopes of Chaplain prayers... ;)

 

Honestly regarding bloat... I don't really think it's an issue in GW eyes. They just make things.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I hope for prayers too, It would be a really nice addition. Particularly for BTs.

[Captain Idaho]

Oh yes. Imagine the Black Tide with such rules. Come on GW ;)

[bolvar]

I don't think we'll see something such as prayers for our chaplains. With some exceptions, like us BTs, SM don't see the Emperor as a god (so we can forget getting such thing for the few chapters that see Him as a god). And you know the drill, we'll get another new primaris shooty unit, maybe with a new type of bolter which ammo ricochets to nearby enemy units or something.

[Captain Idaho]

That's what I loved about Marines - They're atheist yet dogmatically reverent about tradition, devotion etc.

 

Battle hyms can be a thing thematically.

[Panzer]

Yeah it won't be actual "prayers" as Chaplains don't channel some faith powers but they could offer various buffs with battle hymns (which is basically just the atheist form of prayers if we exclude the warp to be fair). Currently it's represented as an LD buff aura and a re-roll aura in melee just like it was for the Dark Apostle but there's no reason GW couldn't turn it into a more detailed special rule.

[Kinstryfe]

The most hopeful takeaway I have over all is that GW is no longer beholden to tradition and having things a certain way just because that's how they've always been. I don't know that it will have a huge impact on the vanilla codex aside from maybe some neat new characters, but I think it signals a possibility for great things for the non-codex chapters (BA, DA, SW). I can see their next refresh adding all sorts of things now to further diversify them from the standard C:SM. I think this will be a good thing because if they cease to be just Marines+1, they'll finally be able to do things with the core codex without worrying about what it will mean for those chapters, in a roundabout way leading to an eventual improvement for everyone.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I own 15+ Devastator's. I predict that they'll be able to move and fire without penalty. This makes me happy.

I doubt it. The move & shoot bonus is probably to set them equal to the Devastator Sarge's targeting array thing (I'm brainfarting the name) and the cherub. Havocs being T5 is the balancing factor to Devs taking bullet sponges. It makes the units different while fulfilling the same function.

 

My biggest hope for the new C:CSM was a revamp of the Legion Traits and allowing all units to benefit; since that didn't happen, I'm going to predict that Codex Marines will be in the same boat when our Mk II Codex drops.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I'm thinking along the same sort of lines. It'll be the new Vanguard models added to Codex Space Marines and then an expansion book like Vigilus Ablaze that grants the extras.

 

Which is a little depressing since the Vanguard Primaris aren't very competitive at all.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I really like Havoc's being able to move and fire heavy weapons without penalty. Hopefully in the future they consider that buff for Astartes in general, it would ramp up the mobility of our fraction and would provide a boost to chaos marines and tacticals.

 

I like the prayers but I'm hoping that if the imperium gets them that they are more like battle hyms like Idaho suggested. With chaos there should be more dramatic effects, and they should have more options (4 gods vs the emperor). It also would run the risk of making SOB feel less special which with a reboot coming, so hopefully they are pretty conservative with them.

 

I'm also excited because I think marine half of this release is going be of a similiar size to the chaos one. I may be opening myself up to disapointment on that front but I doubt that shadowspear represents the entire vanguard release. They tend to try and release marines close to their riskier fractions, and I think they consider SOB to be one. 

[Panzer]

I highly doubt they'll give our Devs the same move&shoot ability Havocs got. It's most likely due them being more warp tainted than regular Marines now (models are more mutated, stand on a bigger base and regular Chaos Marines carrying the same guns still get the penalty) so not something zhat could apply to loyalists.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I highly doubt they'll give our Devs the same move&shoot ability Havocs got. It's most likely due them being more warp tainted than regular Marines now (models are more mutated, stand on a bigger base and regular Chaos Marines carrying the same guns still get the penalty) so not something zhat could apply to loyalists.

 

I said I hope they consider it as a way to buff marines because it would help all types of marines. I didn't say it was likely, but I think marines are always going to be pretty lackluster until they start considering options like that. They can justify it with power armor, and give havoc's another buff (maybe just make them ignore penalties like dark reapers).

 

The red corsair trait reminds me of a lot of posts Idaho and others made about fixing tactical marines. So if I see buff that makes sense I want to post it because you never know who is paying attention.

[Mr4Minutes]

I’m gonna shade this a little, sorry guys.

 

I don’t think C:SM is going to get great buffs until GW accepts the fact that their primaris range needs to replace old marines.

 

I feel like the primaris releases have been very reserved with rules buffs in fear of aggravating the customer base that doesn’t want to see their old marines replaced.

 

But at the same time they have no intention of releasing anything other then primaris marines for loyalist marines.

 

And so C:SM is stuck in this middle ground where we aren’t getting complete rules because GW won’t push out the old range. So everything feels watered down.

 

I don’t want T5 relentless devastators. I want anti armor primaris marines.

 

I know long time marine players hate this, and I do completely understand, but push old marines to index status and give us C:SM Primaris. (With some obvious continuations, but this is a more broad approach)

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

I'm hoping that power armor units in general get a pass. The fact that CSM got a codex with no updated stratagems or tactics is a little discouraging, because as has been mentioned a thousand times, Power Armor needs a patch, Stratagems need updates, Tactics need updates, and both SM and CSM need to be buffed about as hard as Oblits were across the board. The Beta Bolter rule gives me hope, but it is a small hope. A power Armor patch would also help the upcoming Sisters codex, though. So eh. I guess we'll see what comes of next month's FAQ.

 

On the topic of Primaris and Old Marines, I have nothing to say. We literally just had a thread get closed for going down that rabit hole. If you want my opinions you can find them there.

 

I suppose what I Expect to see, if it drops this year, is an identical updated book to Chaos. But it isn't what I'd Like to see.

[bolvar]

Hmm, looking at the chaos news from WHCommunity, I've got this idea:

 

Right now, CSM can stack quite a lot -LD debuffs from auras and such. Talking about prayers, possible mirror/similar changes to our chaplains...

 

How useful really is the rule "Spiritual Leaders" against such abilities? If the chaplain is nearby those -LD bubbles, don't nullify that rule too? Considering that you use the Chaplain's LD, if he's affected too by -LD abilities, you're essentialy killing that ability too. GeeDubs could change "Spiritual Leaders" so Chaplains don't get affected by -LD modifiers, making that rule a true counter to fear-like abilities (as it should be)

 

Yeah, still not enough to make Chaplains worth of taking (the vast majority of lists don't include one), but could be a nice buff to the "worst" character option we have

[CCE1981]

Well I am hoping Chaplains get something like the prayers that dark apostles get. That would definitely make Chaplains interesting.

[MARK0SIAN]

 

I own 15+ Devastator's. I predict that they'll be able to move and fire without penalty. This makes me happy.

I doubt it. The move & shoot bonus is probably to set them equal to the Devastator Sarge's targeting array thing (I'm brainfarting the name) and the cherub. Havocs being T5 is the balancing factor to Devs taking bullet sponges. It makes the units different while fulfilling the same function.

I would say T5 and moving and shooting are massive overcompensation for anything loyalist devs can bring to the table that chaos can’t. They’re just a flat upgrade compared to the loyalist version so Space Marine devs need something, hopefully move and shoot.

[Ciler]

 

On the topic of Primaris and Old Marines, I have nothing to say. We literally just had a thread get closed for going down that rabit hole. If you want my opinions you can find them there.

And that's a key problem in discussing any future of the game for the SM side, a lot of it relies on how the primaris range will evolve (with regards to the existing one).

 

Having said that, I will say that CSM being the first MkII codex gives me hope that when the SM one comes around, it'll be abit better. The SM codex came first and as good as it was initially, it quickly got outpaced by subsequent releases. Now, I'm not calling out power creep there, merely stating that later codexes had a larger variety of stratagems.

 

So I hope it'll be somewhat similar here and that a MkII SM codex will be an opportunity for a slightly perked up revamp - if you get my meaning.