What might the new Chaos releases mean for us?

[Ishagu]

Hammernators aren't a great close combat unit as they lack attack volume and I can do more damage with a ranged unit of equal or less points and without having to deliver it into combat.

 

A good close combat unit has lots of attacks and is fast, and not particularly expensive. It can be fast due to movement or due to deployment tricks or psychic powers. Alternatively it is incredibly durable or has massive output of damage. Im not saying every other faction has such a unit, I'm saying that those that do have better ones. I wouldn't look to Incubi from Dark Eldar for example, I'd look to Talos and Wyches. Orks have cheap units with amazing mobility. GSC have trixy deployment option. Chaos have great psychic powers to boost movement and strip away invuls from units they attack, etc. Great close combat doesn't have to be generated by a single unit either, it can be through synergy with other units that buff or debuff. We lack that.

 

Blood Angels have options for sure, but they need a rebalance to weaken the Captain Smash and improve the other elements.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

I've hacked my way through plenty of boyz with a 14 man crusader squad supported by Grimaldus and  a Lieutenant. It's my standard LR Crusader bomb, and people at my local game shop know that facing me is about positioning for charges and removing that LR from the table as quickly as possible. It's become enough of a thing that I build my lists to use it as bait now, and if they dont' go for it I punish them. Just think what I could do if chainswords and Crusader squads were actually good.

 

As for Hammernators, you're wrong about their damage output. They're a solid unit out of deepstrike, or out of a land raider. But I prefer 2 squads of Cataphractii with chainfists and bolters, supported by a Cataphractii captain with combi melta and hammer. I've smacked around knights, tanks, and everything else with them. They've done so much work that I named them: Marshal Rathgar, and the Brotherhood of Wrath.

 

Slamcaptains dont' need a nerf, that's goofy to even say. Death Company is a little less durable than I'd like, but they put out a lot of damage. Either way, if GW isn't going to bring down the top armies, they probably shouldn't bring down the bottom ones. Let's focus on elevating units that need work, not smothering the few things marines have that are doing well.

[Ishagu]

Hey, I never said they are useless. I'm simply pointing out they aren't top tier options.

 

Ork Boys, Talos, GSC infantry etc will be found in tournament winning lists. Hammernators? Not so much.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

If you're goal for great is Tournament Winning, you should throw your marine codex in the trash. Anything that we contribute to those lists can be filled in by something else. Anyone who takes Marine units in tournament is doing so for style, playing UM with Girlyman, or playing Death Watch. And even the latter two are for style, because we dont' have a way to crack the top 2 armies right now.

[Ishagu]

Not winning, but being able to complete. The cc options in the book are inferior to the shooting options, that's a fact.

 

Terminators aren't competing for a spot in the codex never mind outside of if.

But this is going far off topic now. Astartes suck in close combat. It's not a secret.

 

Primaris haven't changed this, but it would be great if they did. They are the best hope of that happening as we might get a new and unique cc unit that isn't based on an existing template.

[Danarc]

For me the main issue is one:

Why veterans should wear terminator armor when havoc armor (that I assume it derives from HH void harness armor, so even loyalist should have it) is absolutely better?

 

So I hope to see some primaris new termy suits with appropriate rules and price.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

I
 think the best hope for a top tournament melee unit is chainswords getting updated and Crusader Squads having a way to gain another attack, either through a Neophyte bannerman in the squad or an update to BT chapter tactics, both of which would be amazing to see if they plan on updating us some time in the future. 

 

As for Marines being bad in melee? Not entirely true. Marines have some of the best melee options in the game, but we have to pay insane amounts to take them. Consider that I can take a squad of 5 company vets, give them storm shields and thunder hammers, and have 3++ saves as well as 8 strength and flat 3 damage. With a chaplain they are wounding on 4s, rerolling 1s and 2s. With a BT stratagem from Vigilus they are rerolling all wounds and have 1 extra attack each. With another stratagem they also gain a 5+++ feel no pain. That's 16 thunder hammer attacks rerolling nearly everything. And if you want to be less Chapter Specific, youc an do the same thing with Vanguard vets, give them jump packs, and do it all without the stratagems.

 

it isn't that our units are bad in melee. It's that they're too expensive for how long they stay on the table. Part of that is an outdated stat line on marines, and part of that is the Game being bad for assault.

 

Death company can take thunder hammers, and it's much easier for them to stack attacks.

 

DA have a special ancient in terminator armor who's banner gives them +1 to attacks. They can also give their units maces with damage that spreads across models.

 

As for Space Wolves? They're space wolves.

 

Ultra Marines have the best fighting stratagem in the game, allowing you to interrupt a unit who charged you during the charge phase, attack, then fight again during the fight phase.

 

I'm not going to say Space marines dont' need work, but if they can't make us good at assault with the tools we have, adding another overpriced Primaris unit to this mess isn't going to fix it. The core issues of Marines need to be fixed before they pile on any more toys. If they can manage that, I think everyone will be happier.

[Captain Idaho]

Vanguard with Storm Shields and power fists etc are pretty cool and do a trick in the Victrix Guard Detachment.

[Mr4Minutes]

So this thread has kind of gone a little off topic lol.

 

While the CSM dex isn’t out, the reviews are. It seems like if the data sheet didn’t get a new model, it really didn’t get any attention as far as rules changes. All the traitor legion traits remained the same, and the new renegade rules are in Vigilus 2.

 

So my guess is GW will not be doing a lot of changes in C:SM 2.0. If it’s just a 2.0 update it’ll probably just be putting the vanguard units in, the new warlord traits, psychic table and FAQs/CA2018 updates. It could also turn Bolter Discipline into a full rule.

 

Unless they add new units (Primaris Termies??) my guess is its going to be just minor updates.

[HighMarshalAmp]

But we have Primaris Termies.

Gravis armor even is S5T5 which actual Terminators are sorely lacking.

 

Or would only a Teleportarium Special Rule make Gravis units Terminators?

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Gravis armor is only T5. Centurion armor is S5 T5. But I assume Gravis armor was supposed to be Primaris terminator armor. Who knows.

[Captain Idaho]

After reading the blurb on the Warhammer Community site about larger specimens preferring Terminator armour because they are more flexible, I suspect we'll see Primaris Terminators soon enough.

 

Makes sense that suits of Terminator are bound to the wearing rather than the wearer sliding into them.

[HighMarshalAmp]

Gravis armor is only T5. Centurion armor is S5 T5. But I assume Gravis armor was supposed to be Primaris terminator armor. Who knows.

Still better than S4 T4...

But imo, it definitely fills a similar role to Termies.

[FlamingDeth]

After reading the blurb on the Warhammer Community site about larger specimens preferring Terminator armour because they are more flexible, I suspect we'll see Primaris Terminators soon enough.

 

Makes sense that suits of Terminator are bound to the wearing rather than the wearer sliding into them.

I look forward to Primaris marines wearing Terminator plate like a belly shirt. Ready for spring break!

[Red_Shift]

Terminator primaris would be very welcome. Hopefully with some brutal close combat options. That fan art of the IF primaris terminator was very cool.

[Marshal Reinhard]

I would support Primaris terminators too even if that puts Gravis in a weird place.

[Ishagu]

They could still be in Gravis, but more ornate and special suits.

 

Like the new Calgar.

[Captain Idaho]

I see Gravis Calgar as the alternative Artificer Armour Calgar.

[MARK0SIAN]

I think part of the issue why people don’t consider Gravis (particularly Aggressors) to be the Primaris version of Terminators is that, at least for me, they’re visually closer to Centurions than Terminators.

 

They also don’t have an invulnerable save and actually have a bonus for sitting still and being a firebase whereas traditional termies have always been portrayed and used to drive right into the thick of the enemy.

[Captain Idaho]

To me it's because Inceptors look a little like them (being in Gravis Armour and all).

[Captain Idaho]

Giant Terminators, if they look right, might work in my mind as a different scale to my other Marines.

 

It's possible. :)

[Marshal Reinhard]

I think part of the issue why people don’t consider Gravis (particularly Aggressors) to be the Primaris version of Terminators is that, at least for me, they’re visually closer to Centurions than Terminators.

 

That and the lack of 2+ (even if T5 might just be more usefull... there's a bit of pride in 2+)

[Ishagu]

Calgar has a 2+

 

A dedicated cc version of the suit could be tougher with a 2+ and invul but less firepower.

[War Angel]

Didn’t they say we were getting additional models outside of the shadow spear box? Something like “this is only a small taste”. Any idea on when we get the rest of it?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Hopefully, a new vehicle, there's some unallocated rumour engine pictures still about which look like a Primarisesque vehicle.