BSB Speculation

[A.T.]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/12/battle-sisters-on-the-battlefield-part-1gw-homepage-post-1/
 
New acts of faith :
Roll a dice at the start of your turn. You can use that roll, once, to replace another roll (before making the roll).
(killing an enemy unit or losing a character gets you another dice, but not until the end of your turn - and only one phase so no farming)
 
New sacred rites : - you lose these if you take any non-sisters unit (such as a knight)
Choose one bonus at the start of the game (or roll for two random bonuses)
Sample rite 1 - each time one of your models is killed it can, on a 5+, make a single attack.
Sample rite 2 - on an unmodified roll of 6 to hit in melee, score one extra hit
 
Shield of faith :
6++ invulnerable
Deny the witch on 1D6 (aka - don't deny the witch)
 
 
 
 

And you guys were worried.

 
A hell of a lot more worried now.

[dracpanzer]

So hopefully there's more to this whole Miracle dice/sacred rights thing because 2 dice per turn in exchange for not even having the anemic AoFs we had before sucks and sacred rites don't seem anywhere near as good as just being able to bring a knight. AND it's random what dice you get? Wow, these are terrible.

Its per phase correct? So you could get one for killing a unit in shooting, one in melee, one by morale loss? Perhaps even your opponents during your opponents turn?

 

Not sure, doesn't sound index level, might be better than Betadex. I need to see more...

[taikishi]

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And you guys were worried.

 

Gone from worried to furious. Acts of Faith seem even worse than they did in the Beta Dex, and Miracle dice generation is super limited. Rolling a 1 on a morale test for an army that tends to work better MSU? Resisting a psychic power when Shield of Faith still only gives you 1d6 to resist?

[ValourousHeart]

 

Disagree with the thought that is a stormbolter equiv...... its rapid fire 1 not 2 ...

2 shots for 2 damage vs 4 shots for 1 damage.

 

Unless you have only a point left there is no good reason to take it instead of a stormbolter, even against psykers.

 

The problem with the Condemnor IMO is that it is a Combi-Weapon that doesn't follow the same profile that ALL other Combi-Weapons follow.

 

It is a Boltgun and a Crossbow.

Now that might sound like the same thing, but they should really have 2 different profiles.

[Dread]

I think from reading that, the wait will be worth it. I figured they do something big since most of the models in the box don't have high strength weapons or multi wound.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

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And you guys were worried.

Worry has turned to resignation.

[taikishi]

I suppose Sacred Rites being a game-long benefit makes them slightly better, but being limited to one (or two random) when it feels like every other army has something better without it being random...

[BaronBanana]

It still seems kind of meh, but definitely the right amount of meh I was expecting

[tvih]

Yeah, just read up the latest post... why can they cook up crazy good rules for most other factions but not for Sisters? I hope at least points costs and any completely new units, if nothing else, will be such that we can make a threatening list. Not holding too much hope for the Order Convictions to be notably better than they were in the beta.

[MoshJason]

I can't tell how I feel about it. Sacred rites should be cool, I guess, and miracle dice could be useful for guaranteeing a charge or a Melta shots, but only if you roll really high on it. Can you command pt reroll a miracle roll? Haha I want to like it, but I miss 7th editions AoF, where like Dominions get ignores cover or Seraphim get shred -- they weren't always useful, but it felt more "right" to me.

[Commander Dawnstar]

Immediate thoughts:

 

Miracle Dice are something of an interesting gimmick but if they're the new Acts of Faith then you can count me massively underwhelmed at this time. It's very possible that there will be more to them through interactions with Relics, Stratagems and the like, but the new design of the rule makes them all about extremely localised "miracles" rather than something more broadly applicable like the old rules and is likely going to lead to frustrating situations where low rolls sit unused because a suitable situation never comes up. What are you really going to do with a roll of two besides perhaps guaranteeing certain characters hit with a single shot/attack?

 

I'm sure they'll feel great when you get to make optimal use of a six though.

 

Sacred Rites have potential, although really I'd like to see the rest of them before passing any kind of judgement. Spirit of the Martyr isn't terrible in an edition where things tend to get blown off the table pretty sharpish, and The Passion definitely could be useful if more aggressive Bloody Rose builds are workable - I bet the Templars would gladly trade their unique Doctrine for it. At the very least they look to be an army-wide power boost that's going to give things some more punch, and part of me wonders if it might actually turn out a fair enough risk to roll for two of them. They're more of a baseline increase to the army's power than I was anticipating ... make what you will of that.

[CaptainMarsh]

I need to see all Convictions, WT, Relics and Strategems before I condemn the Miracle Dice system, as well as all the Sacred Rites. Generating more/generating them easier/etc. can play a role.

The MD system isn't awful, but it suffers from working much more effectively at low point levels than at high. We'll see. I like it more than than the Beta book.

[Duke Danse Macabre]

 

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And you guys were worried.

 

Worry has turned to resignation.

Beautiful models with worse rules than we had prior to 7th in a power creep edition where marines are god again.

Lost allot of our abilities and they have ruined aof again, not suprised just confused how they just keep making things worse.

The only up side is we won't have to put up with competitive players running sisters as the flavour of the month at tournaments because so far I've not seen a thing that makes them look like they can go toe to toe with the big kids on the block. :p

 

Fingers crossed we get some new half decent options in the codex and maybe some characters, it's looking more and more like it will come down to that and points costs as the rules are not there atm, I hope the new leaks will prove me wrong or failing that they will face plant so hard an errata will be out before release, wouldn't be the first time it's happened pre codex.

[ValourousHeart]

New acts of faith :

Roll a dice at the start of your turn. You can use that roll, once, to replace another roll (before making the roll).

(killing an enemy unit or losing a character gets you another dice, but not until the end of your turn - and each once per phase so no farming)

 

It is per phase, and it is both your turn and your opponent's turn.

So 1 for the battle round, 2 shooting phases, 2 CC phases, 2 Morale phases, 1 Psych phase.

So 1 minimum, 8 max, and a high probability of 5 per battle round.

 

They are essentially free CP that replace the need for buring CP on Command Re-rolls.

So yes I'll take 5 free Command Re-rolls per turn.

 

 

New sacred rites : - you lose these if you take any non-sisters unit (such as a knight)

Choose one bonus at the start of the game (or roll for two random bonuses)

Sample rite 1 - each time one of your models is killed it can, on a 5+, make a single attack.

Sample rite 2 - on an unmodified roll of 6 to hit in melee, score one extra hit

 

OH NO!!! You mean I have to take a battle forged army with all of my units have the same Space Marine Chapter in order to get Defenders of Humanity and Chapter Tactics.

You know by this point that is pretty standard.

Can you still take a Knight, sure you can, but you have to give up something, just like you do with every other army out there.

 

 

Shield of faith :

6++ invulnerable

Deny the witch on 1D6 (aka - don't deny the witch)

 

I don't take a Librarian with my Ravenwing army, so my army doesn't get to deny the witch at all.

Hate on that 1d6 all you want, but it is still a better chance to deny the witch than any other unit that isn't a psyker gets.

[MoshJason]

 

New acts of faith :

Roll a dice at the start of your turn. You can use that roll, once, to replace another roll (before making the roll).

(killing an enemy unit or losing a character gets you another dice, but not until the end of your turn - and each once per phase so no farming)

 

It is per phase, and it is both your turn and your opponent's turn.

So 1 for the battle round, 2 shooting phases, 2 CC phases, 2 Morale phases, 1 Psych phase.

So 1 minimum, 8 max, and a high probability of 5 per battle round.

 

They are essentially free CP that replace the need for buring CP on Command Re-rolls.

So yes I'll take 5 free Command Re-rolls per turn.

 

 

New sacred rites : - you lose these if you take any non-sisters unit (such as a knight)

Choose one bonus at the start of the game (or roll for two random bonuses)

Sample rite 1 - each time one of your models is killed it can, on a 5+, make a single attack.

Sample rite 2 - on an unmodified roll of 6 to hit in melee, score one extra hit

 

OH NO!!! You mean I have to take a battle forged army with all of my units have the same Space Marine Chapter in order to get Defenders of Humanity and Chapter Tactics.

You know by this point that is pretty standard.

Can you still take a Knight, sure you can, but you have to give up something, just like you do with every other army out there.

 

 

Shield of faith :

6++ invulnerable

Deny the witch on 1D6 (aka - don't deny the witch)

 

I don't take a Librarian with my Ravenwing army, so my army doesn't get to deny the witch at all.

Hate on that 1d6 all you want, but it is still a better chance to deny the witch than any other unit that isn't a psyker gets.

 

Chapter tactics are per detachment -- this is the same as the new doctrines...

 

That said, the d6 isn't really a chance, most psychic powers go off on a 6 or higher, meaning even if you roll a 6 you can't deny it.

 

In fact, smite is a 5 and is one of the only powers you can use it against. You have a 3% chance of it occuring, which is roughly the chance of a 20 on a d20, and then rolling a 12+.

 

We've already had that, since the index! most people just forgot because it is never used.

[Matt_149]

Yes!!! Apparently looking at this forum there are now less people I will have to compete with to buy the box

[A.T.]

OH NO!!! You mean I have to take a battle forged army with all of my units have the same Space Marine Chapter in order to get Defenders of Humanity and Chapter Tactics.

Yeah, but it sucks a little harder when your codex and supplements don't give you around 300 units to pick from. 

 

 

Hate on that 1d6 all you want, but it is still a better chance to deny the witch than any other unit that isn't a psyker gets.

Specifically it's a 0.0185% chance to deny the first smite cast each round.

 

And again, it sucks a little harder when you don't have several dozen alternate deny the witch sources. Though at least there is an inquisitor update now if the relic is gone.

[ERJAK]

 

So hopefully there's more to this whole Miracle dice/sacred rights thing because 2 dice per turn in exchange for not even having the anemic AoFs we had before sucks and sacred rites don't seem anywhere near as good as just being able to bring a knight. AND it's random what dice you get? Wow, these are terrible.

Its per phase correct? So you could get one for killing a unit in shooting, one in melee, one by morale loss? Perhaps even your opponents during your opponents turn?

Not sure, doesn't sound index level, might be better than Betadex. I need to see more...

You definitely could, but there's a lot of constraints. For example, enemy battleshock won't generate one because your unit has to kill them

[ERJAK]

 

New acts of faith :

Roll a dice at the start of your turn. You can use that roll, once, to replace another roll (before making the roll).

(killing an enemy unit or losing a character gets you another dice, but not until the end of your turn - and each once per phase so no farming)

 

It is per phase, and it is both your turn and your opponent's turn.

So 1 for the battle round, 2 shooting phases, 2 CC phases, 2 Morale phases, 1 Psych phase.

So 1 minimum, 8 max, and a high probability of 5 per battle round.

 

They are essentially free CP that replace the need for buring CP on Command Re-rolls.

So yes I'll take 5 free Command Re-rolls per turn.

 

 

New sacred rites : - you lose these if you take any non-sisters unit (such as a knight)

Choose one bonus at the start of the game (or roll for two random bonuses)

Sample rite 1 - each time one of your models is killed it can, on a 5+, make a single attack.

Sample rite 2 - on an unmodified roll of 6 to hit in melee, score one extra hit

 

OH NO!!! You mean I have to take a battle forged army with all of my units have the same Space Marine Chapter in order to get Defenders of Humanity and Chapter Tactics.

You know by this point that is pretty standard.

Can you still take a Knight, sure you can, but you have to give up something, just like you do with every other army out there.

 

 

Shield of faith :

6++ invulnerable

Deny the witch on 1D6 (aka - don't deny the witch)

 

I don't take a Librarian with my Ravenwing army, so my army doesn't get to deny the witch at all.

Hate on that 1d6 all you want, but it is still a better chance to deny the witch than any other unit that isn't a psyker gets.

 

(Incredibly toxic reply ngl.)

 

How you killin stuff in THEIR shooting phase? How you killin stuff in ANY combat phase? Arcos and pengines don't get dice. There's 0 chance you get 5. You'll average maybe 2.5 per turn across 4 turns against a non-psychic army and 3 against a psychic army (you still have to deny the cast).

 

For reference Tzeentch START with NINE. Which considering they have higher value in early turns is a bit stronger than generating 3-4 per turn, even though you end up with more dice.( plus they can generate more also).

 

The sacred rites are borderline. These ones are subpar. 5+ to be out of range to shoot something and a close combat bonus for an army that can't really close combat don't equal universal -1 rend. It still has potential, but it's off to a shaky start. Also, only 2 armies have to give something up to take a knight.

 

Only if they roll a 5 or lower. Although if brazier stays it's actually pretty awesome.

[MoshJason]

 

 

New acts of faith :

Roll a dice at the start of your turn. You can use that roll, once, to replace another roll (before making the roll).

(killing an enemy unit or losing a character gets you another dice, but not until the end of your turn - and each once per phase so no farming)

 

It is per phase, and it is both your turn and your opponent's turn.

So 1 for the battle round, 2 shooting phases, 2 CC phases, 2 Morale phases, 1 Psych phase.

So 1 minimum, 8 max, and a high probability of 5 per battle round.

 

They are essentially free CP that replace the need for buring CP on Command Re-rolls.

So yes I'll take 5 free Command Re-rolls per turn.

 

 

New sacred rites : - you lose these if you take any non-sisters unit (such as a knight)

Choose one bonus at the start of the game (or roll for two random bonuses)

Sample rite 1 - each time one of your models is killed it can, on a 5+, make a single attack.

Sample rite 2 - on an unmodified roll of 6 to hit in melee, score one extra hit

 

OH NO!!! You mean I have to take a battle forged army with all of my units have the same Space Marine Chapter in order to get Defenders of Humanity and Chapter Tactics.

You know by this point that is pretty standard.

Can you still take a Knight, sure you can, but you have to give up something, just like you do with every other army out there.

 

 

Shield of faith :

6++ invulnerable

Deny the witch on 1D6 (aka - don't deny the witch)

 

I don't take a Librarian with my Ravenwing army, so my army doesn't get to deny the witch at all.

S**t on that 1d6 all you want, but it is still a better chance to deny the witch than any other unit that isn't a psyker gets.

(Incredibly toxic reply ngl.)

How you killin stuff in THEIR shooting phase? How you killin stuff in ANY combat phase? Arcos and pengines don't get dice. There's 0 chance you get 5. You'll average maybe 2.5 per turn across 4 turns against a non-psychic army and 3 against a psychic army (you still have to deny the cast).

For reference Tzeentch START with NINE. Which considering they have higher value in early turns is a bit stronger than generating 3-4 per turn, even though you end up with more dice.( plus they can generate more also).

The sacred rites are borderline. These ones are subpar. 5+ to be out of range to shoot something and a close combat bonus for an army that can't really close combat don't equal universal -1 rend. It still has potential, but it's off to a shaky start. Also, only 2 armies have to give something up to take a knight.

Only if they roll a 5 or lower. Although if brazier stays it's actually pretty awesome.

Sidenote: bloody rose Repentia are really good, extra good with the Passion, and will generate dice. Unfortunately they are likely still super easy to kill, and we don't know if bloody rose is staying the same, so...

[taikishi]

 

New acts of faith :

Roll a dice at the start of your turn. You can use that roll, once, to replace another roll (before making the roll).

(killing an enemy unit or losing a character gets you another dice, but not until the end of your turn - and each once per phase so no farming)

 

It is per phase, and it is both your turn and your opponent's turn.

So 1 for the battle round, 2 shooting phases, 2 CC phases, 2 Morale phases, 1 Psych phase.

So 1 minimum, 8 max, and a high probability of 5 per battle round.

 

 

I know what you're trying to say, but some corrections:

 

1) Base, you can't get Miracle points during your opponent's shooting phase. Even then, Sisters aren't likely to stand up to much in melee combat even with the Passion.

2) The odds of getting two Miracle Dice in the Morale phase of a single battle round are 1:36, and because Miracle Dice are the new AoF you can't use a Miracle Die 1 on Morale to generate a Miracle Die. If you go second and take a Morale test every player turn starting with your opponent's turn 1, the odds of generating a Miracle point every Morale Phase for four entire battle rounds are about 1 in 1.68 million assuming 1 morale test per turn.

 

 

 

They are essentially free CP that replace the need for buring CP on Command Re-rolls.

So yes I'll take 5 free Command Re-rolls per turn.

 

I imagine CP might be burned on re-rolling Miracle Dice, truth be told. Unless you roll a 5 or 6, or unless you want to keep a 1 in your back pocket for something like preventing a vehicle from exploring or morale, those are going to be the only results that matter 99% of the time.

 

 

 

New sacred rites : - you lose these if you take any non-sisters unit (such as a knight)

Choose one bonus at the start of the game (or roll for two random bonuses)

Sample rite 1 - each time one of your models is killed it can, on a 5+, make a single attack.

Sample rite 2 - on an unmodified roll of 6 to hit in melee, score one extra hit

 

OH NO!!! You mean I have to take a battle forged army with all of my units have the same Space Marine Chapter in order to get Defenders of Humanity and Chapter Tactics.

You know by this point that is pretty standard.

Can you still take a Knight, sure you can, but you have to give up something, just like you do with every other army out there.

 

 

As previously mentioned, the only thing you lose if you bring a Knight with Marines is Combat Doctrines and Combat Doctrines look much better than Sacred Rites. If anything, Sacred Rites look closer to Chapter Tactics based on the two we've seen. In fact, one of them is a successor tactic.

 

 

 

Shield of faith :

6++ invulnerable

Deny the witch on 1D6 (aka - don't deny the witch)

 

I don't take a Librarian with my Ravenwing army, so my army doesn't get to deny the witch at all.

Hate on that 1d6 all you want, but it is still a better chance to deny the witch than any other unit that isn't a psyker gets.

 

 

Yes, but you have the option of taking a Librarian (or multiple) and not interfering with your Combat Doctrines (once Dark Angels get them) and Chapter Tactics. The 1d6, as was also mentioned, only stops Smite or similar and only if the caster's total result is a 5. Sisters, meanwhile, lose Sacred Rites (which may or may not be a big deal as I mentioned a moment ago) if they bring any form of psychic defense beyond a single Inquisitor.

[ERJAK]

Yes!!! Apparently looking at this forum there are now less people I will have to compete with to buy the box

No, you just get fools who see relentless, nonsensical positivity as a baseline and don't comprehend that 'trepidation' and 'skepticism' and even 'distaste' do not equal 'hate the army now'.

 

Certain people see anything less than riotous applause as abject hate. It's called 'toxic positivity' and its a serious problem.

[ValourousHeart]

Chapter tactics are per detachment -- this is the same as the new doctrines...

 

That said, the d6 isn't really a chance, most psychic powers go off on a 6 or higher, meaning even if you roll a 6 you can't deny it.

 

In fact, smite is a 5 and is one of the only powers you can use it against. You have a 3% chance of it occuring, which is roughly the chance of a 20 on a d20, and then rolling a 12+.

 

We've already had that, since the index! most people just forgot because it is never used.

 

Yes all armies have certain rules for the units, and then extra rules for the chapter, and then still extra rules if all of your units are from that one chapter.

Not sure why this is good enough for everyone else but is garbage for Sisters.

 

My point wasn't that this means we are immune to psykers.

My point was that this makes us better than an army that doesn't take a psyker.

 

And we still don't know how else the codex modifies that ability.

The beta codex had a relic that made it a 2d6 roll within an aura, so we can expect at least that, but more than likely there will be other modifiers as well.

 

 

 

OH NO!!! You mean I have to take a battle forged army with all of my units have the same Space Marine Chapter in order to get Defenders of Humanity and Chapter Tactics.

Yeah, but it sucks a little harder when your codex and supplements don't give you around 300 units to pick from. 

 

 

Hate on that 1d6 all you want, but it is still a better chance to deny the witch than any other unit that isn't a psyker gets.

Specifically it's a 0.0185% chance to deny the first smite cast each round.

 

And again, it sucks a little harder when you don't have several dozen alternate deny the witch sources. Though at least there is an inquisitor update now if the relic is gone.

 

 

300 units?  There are only 76 units in the SM codex.  The Raven Guard supplement only added 1 new unit.  There is no way that the UM, WS, IH, IF, and SAL have 223 between them.

 

And Space Marines don't have several dozen alternate sources to deny the witch.  They have 4 librarians, 1 chapter tactic, and 1 relic in the main codex.  And all 6 supplements probably only add 1-2 more options along with Tigger.

 

Sisters have 1 army wide rule that we know of so far.

 

What we don't know yet are 1) the other sacred rites, 2) Orders, 3) Relics, and 4) NEW NEVER BEFORE SEEN UNITS.  Who knows we might even have some other things that modify it.

 

 

The point is that there is far more that you DON'T KNOW about what is in the codex than what you DO KNOW.  So it is a bit premature to go all gloom and doom.

[ERJAK]

 

 

 

New acts of faith :

Roll a dice at the start of your turn. You can use that roll, once, to replace another roll (before making the roll).

(killing an enemy unit or losing a character gets you another dice, but not until the end of your turn - and each once per phase so no farming)

It is per phase, and it is both your turn and your opponent's turn.

So 1 for the battle round, 2 shooting phases, 2 CC phases, 2 Morale phases, 1 Psych phase.

So 1 minimum, 8 max, and a high probability of 5 per battle round.

 

They are essentially free CP that replace the need for buring CP on Command Re-rolls.

So yes I'll take 5 free Command Re-rolls per turn.

 

New sacred rites : - you lose these if you take any non-sisters unit (such as a knight)

Choose one bonus at the start of the game (or roll for two random bonuses)

Sample rite 1 - each time one of your models is killed it can, on a 5+, make a single attack.

Sample rite 2 - on an unmodified roll of 6 to hit in melee, score one extra hit

OH NO!!! You mean I have to take a battle forged army with all of my units have the same Space Marine Chapter in order to get Defenders of Humanity and Chapter Tactics.

You know by this point that is pretty standard.

Can you still take a Knight, sure you can, but you have to give up something, just like you do with every other army out there.

 

Shield of faith :

6++ invulnerable

Deny the witch on 1D6 (aka - don't deny the witch)

I don't take a Librarian with my Ravenwing army, so my army doesn't get to deny the witch at all.

Hate on that 1d6 all you want, but it is still a better chance to deny the witch than any other unit that isn't a psyker gets.

 

(Incredibly toxic reply ngl.)

How you killin stuff in THEIR shooting phase? How you killin stuff in ANY combat phase? Arcos and pengines don't get dice. There's 0 chance you get 5. You'll average maybe 2.5 per turn across 4 turns against a non-psychic army and 3 against a psychic army (you still have to deny the cast).

For reference Tzeentch START with NINE. Which considering they have higher value in early turns is a bit stronger than generating 3-4 per turn, even though you end up with more dice.( plus they can generate more also).

The sacred rites are borderline. These ones are subpar. 5+ to be out of range to shoot something and a close combat bonus for an army that can't really close combat don't equal universal -1 rend. It still has potential, but it's off to a shaky start. Also, only 2 armies have to give something up to take a knight.

Only if they roll a 5 or lower. Although if brazier stays it's actually pretty awesome.

 

Sidenote: bloody rose Repentia are really good, extra good with the Passion, and will generate dice. Unfortunately they are likely still super easy to kill, and we don't know if bloody rose is staying the same, so...

 

This leads to a greater point I wanted to make.

 

 

The core mechanics of Sacred rites AND miracle dice are very good and have the potential to be incredibly strong and fun.

 

It's now PURELY a numbers game. How well can you take advantage of the sacred rites and how many dice can we generate will decide the strength of the army.

 

If repentia are massively improved then both miracle dice and the sacred rites could become very powerful, very1 quickly. If we get character, relics and warlord traits that generate more dice it could get crazy strong rather quickly.

 

If the other sacred rites are more shooting or movement focused they could be a massive boon. If there's a strat that lets you pick one and roll for the other they'd be amazing.

 

The core IS there.

 

...Assuming the units are able to stand up in their own right. 9pt sisters and 15pt repentia aren't gonna cut it anymore, especially with no acts.

[Matt_149]

 

Yes!!! Apparently looking at this forum there are now less people I will have to compete with to buy the box

No, you just get fools who see relentless, nonsensical positivity as a baseline and don't comprehend that 'trepidation' and 'skepticism' and even 'distaste' do not equal 'hate the army now'.

 

Certain people see anything less than riotous applause as abject hate. It's called 'toxic positivity' and its a serious problem.

Nah mate it's people going off on one with only half the facts thinking they know it all, they are the "serious problem". This is why I have stayed away from this forum. I came back thinking, you know what maybe people will be excited for this release but no the same old people spouting the same old rubbish. Laters have fun