The Primarchs: Lion El'Jonson

[Scribe]

The wolves as sanction never works. Guard Dogs, or Police, sure. Sanction? Nah. Never fit, not for a second.

 

EDIT: And I dont care if ADB tried to fix it after the fact. It never worked. :p

Edited September 17, 2020 by Scribe

[Roomsky]

So I gave this another go and, while it improved my outlook on the book, I’m still not a fan.

 

I like Guymer’s prose, and this is no exception. Despite a plethora of dull combat, like Wraight’s The Great Wolf, there was some pleasure to be taken in just sitting back and letting the quality of the writing pick up the slack. The Lion himself comes across well, especially in the brief interludes where he converses with the Emperor. What little dialogue is present is well written, and most of the sections between battle set pieces are intriguing enough. There’s a brief scene of astartes banter about orks I really loved, and it shows Guymer does have talent, despite it all.

 

Unfortunately, this doesn’t keep the novel from being all the combat of a 400 page book crammed into a 150 page one. While I could at least differentiate Duriel and, uh, the Librarian this time, they have no room to demonstrate an actual personality. When the book isn’t battles, it’s trying to sell you Dark Angels models; the few pages remaining are all that remain for plot and character. The page time is probably more poorly allocated than Lord of Drakes or Lord of Ultramar. Pardon me for wanting a story in my books, but this just doesn’t cut it.

I don’t need every Primarchs book to be a deconstruction like Haley’s contributions, or Guymer’s far superior Gorgon of Medusa. But I need something other than an overlong codex entry. The mystery of who the xenos are is solved immediately. The populace turns against the Dark Angels the instant after the possibility is established, leaving us a few sentences to lament that we didn’t use this to build some tension. The Lion formulates a plan to track and capture the xenos ship, but doesn’t hold council about it or tell anyone about it. No room for conversation or mystery here, we have to use these bolt shells or they’ll be reallocated to a different book.  Savine, the book’s only interesting character (or rather, the book’s only character) besides the Lion would be fine in a book with an actual cast, but is squandered here without anyone else to latch on to.

 

If you want a Primarchs book about legion units and weapons, that shows how infallible the titular character is and how even the most vile xenos scum buckle before the unassailable might of the legion involved, this might be the book for you. If you want an actual story, with character arcs and meaningful conflict, there’s none to be found here.

 

3/10

Give me Descent of and Fallen Angels over this drivel

[Indefragable]

@Roomsky you’re saying it’s worse even than the Vulkan and Guilliman novellas? <gasp>.

[b1soul]

From what I hear, this is like the Russ novel/novella if its battle scenes took up 95% of the wordcount.

[Roomsky]

Hmm, worse than Lord of Ultramar? For me, certainly, though based on community response that’s not the prevailing opinion. Worse than Lord of Drakes? That’s tougher, but probably also a yes from me, I’d certainly rather read it again. Annandale’s books aren’t always well-balanced, but they usually have strong themes and an actual character or two.

 

@b1soul – That’s pretty close to the truth IMO, but while the fightan in The Great Wolf tells us something about the Wolves’ nature outside of their efficiency at killing things, Lord of the First is just about how “awesome” the Dangels are.

 

It’s probably the only entry into The Primarchs I think fails totally as a story. It’s not about anything, really.

[Indefragable]

So getting deeper into the lore in FW Book 9: Crusade, making my way through the (wonderfully very long) section all about the DA and their origins...

...and in a nutshell, the DA’s identity is basically being awesome. The whole First thing is so important to them, that they take casualties when they don’t have to in order to prove just how awesome they are....with the irony of such actions flying 40,000 feet over their heads. I.e. Guilliman is methodically taking down a world, applying pressure and whittling them down with minimal loss of life. The Grandmaster of the DA comes by and sees that the world can be taken with a single decisive stroke. Guilliman is like “yea but at what cost?” The Grandmaster laughs at this response, puts on his helmet, and proceeds to take the planet right from under RG’s nose........at the cost of 10,000 Legionnaries and the Grandmaster’s own life springing a nuclear trap. Guilliman looks at the bloodied, panting, yet smiling remnants of the DA force and says (and I quote) :

“Vainglory is a poor strategist, for he renders triumph a bitter trophy and an empty prize. Today you have proven the strength of your Legion, but not it’s wisdom.”

Up until the Lion is found, the DA sit at the Emperor’s left hand, even though they don’t have a Primarch with them. They get this honor because they literally wrote the basis of the Principia Bellicosa through their own trials and errors, and because they Get Stuff Done. The cost does not matter, the ramifications do not matter, the methods do not matter: only putting battles in the W column. They earn their place to be considered equal to Primarchs by their capabilities, but this drive becomes a destructive nature that feeds on itself, driving them to seek to outdo anyone and everyone around them, even Primarchs, to the point of collapsing inwards. They start as mentors and guides and the standard for all others to aspire to, but that goes to their heads to the point that they become a pariah of sorts growing ever more resentful as other Legions, especially those with gene-daddy back in the fold, begin to eclipse them.

The anecdote with Guilliman is the perfect example of that. They try so hard to prove why everyone should be like them (doing in a day what Guilliman took a month to do) that they actively prove why everyone shouldn’t be like them.

Speaking of Guilliman....they really don’t like it when RG is like “ya know, I have some ideas for a new book that improves upon the Principia Bellicosa...”

They would be the largest and most powerful legion throughout the entire course of the Great Crusade if this dangerous level of pride didn’t cause them to essentially self-implode halfway along.

In essence, it’s almost an inverse of the Emperor’s Children’s’ arc. The EC start out having to do more with less due to circumstance, and thus find more creative and impressive ways to become particularly skilled. This evolves into an arrogance that leads them to fall. The DA start out supremely confident, only to have that grow into wasteful pride which then reduces them into circumstances where they have to do more with less at an ever increasing rate.

...sorry to keep bringing up the other book in this thread, but my gut says it ties in with the Lion’s novella and the subsequent reaction to it. I look forward to reading this one to see if the seeds of the spoilers above are in the book and an attempt was made to show that, but got lost on the way. Edited September 22, 2020 by Indefragable

[WrathOfTheLion]

Yes, they are definitely tied together. There is some context to the events that ends up covered in Book 9.

The Santales knight order, which is passively mentioned in the novel, has its purpose discussed in book 9.

The Khrave, the main antagonists, are mentioned as well. They are first encountered on Terra in the Unification Wars, which means some of the information presented in the novel can't be quite true. They were pushing for the final blow here, it was not just some random xenos race they first encountered here but one that they had been fighting for hundreds of years prior to the events of the novel, and thus had specialized knowledge about.

In a way, we as the reader aren't kept in the loop in the novel, and that context is lost without some knowledge from book 9. Which is probably why the general release is afterwards. Edited September 22, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[jaxom]

So getting deeper into the lore in FW Book 9: Crusade, making my way through the (wonderfully very long) section all about the DA and their origins...

 

...and in a nutshell, the DA’s identity is basically being awesome. The whole First thing is so important to them, that they take casualties when they don’t have to in order to prove just how awesome they are....with the irony of such actions flying 40,000 feet over their heads. I.e. Guilliman is methodically taking down a world, applying pressure and whittling them down with minimal loss of life. The Grandmaster of the DA comes by and sees that the world can be taken with a single decisive stroke. Guilliman is like “yea but at what cost?” The Grandmaster laughs at this response, puts on his helmet, and proceeds to take the planet right from under RG’s nose........at the cost of 10,000 Legionnaries and the Grandmaster’s own life springing a nuclear trap. Guilliman looks at the bloodied, panting, yet smiling remnants of the DA force and says (and I quote) :

“Vainglory is a poor strategist, for he renders triumph a bitter trophy and an empty prize. Today you have proven the strength of your Legion, but not it’s wisdom.”

 

Up until the Lion is found, the DA sit at the Emperor’s left hand, even though they don’t have a Primarch with them. They get this honor because they literally wrote the basis of the Principia Bellicosa through their own trials and errors, and because they Get Stuff Done. The cost does not matter, the ramifications do not matter, the methods do not matter: only putting battles in the W column. They earn their place to be considered equal to Primarchs by their capabilities, but this drive becomes a destructive nature that feeds on itself, driving them to seek to outdo anyone and everyone around them, even Primarchs, to the point of collapsing inwards. They start as mentors and guides and the standard for all others to aspire to, but that goes to their heads to the point that they become a pariah of sorts growing ever more resentful as other Legions, especially those with gene-daddy back in the fold, begin to eclipse them.

 

The anecdote with Guilliman is the perfect example of that. They try so hard to prove why everyone should be like them (doing in a day what Guilliman took a month to do) that they actively prove why everyone shouldn’t be like them.

 

Speaking of Guilliman....they really don’t like it when RG is like “ya know, I have some ideas for a new book that improves upon the Principia Bellicosa...”

 

They would be the largest and most powerful legion throughout the entire course of the Great Crusade if this dangerous level of pride didn’t cause them to essentially self-implode halfway along.

 

In essence, it’s almost an inverse of the Emperor’s Children’s’ arc. The EC start out having to do more with less due to circumstance, and thus find more creative and impressive ways to become particularly skilled. This evolves into an arrogance that leads them to fall. The DA start out supremely confident, only to have that grow into wasteful pride which then reduces them into circumstances where they have to do more with less at an ever increasing rate.

 

...sorry to keep bringing up the other book in this thread, but my gut says it ties in with the Lion’s novella and the subsequent reaction to it. I look forward to reading this one to see if the seeds of the spoilers above are in the book and an attempt was made to show that, but got lost on the way.

 

Thank you, as I agree that looking at the two together is useful.

 

I'm also patting myself on the back to know that something from my fanfic matches what made it into the actual FW book 

[Fedor]

The Khrave also showed up as an enemy in the Raven Guard Exemplary Battles section.

[b1soul]

"By dying in droves, we prove our awesomeness to other legions"

 

Sounds like a plan

[Petitioner's City]

Whatever happened to the I legion luther marines the space wolves found in the nebula (and the implication there were more). Who and what were they?

[Sandlemad]

Whatever happened to the I legion luther marines the space wolves found in the nebula (and the implication there were more). Who and what were they?

 

Unfortunately I can't find any specific reference in Crusade to them or the Caliban garrison in general. The themes of Caliban becoming imperialised that show up in the early HH DA novels aren't there either.

 

There's mention of how the Lion only had about a third of the legion with him prior to Thramas, with most DA being scattered in small forces (generally less that 5k dudes) to the imperium's southern and western borders. But it then goes on to emphasise how when they eventually learned of the heresy, most of these forces launched independent campaigns against the traitors, refusing the consolidate into a big target until the Lion returned.

 

There is a hint (or inference, maybe) in the bit about Luther, where AK concludes that he was probably a traitor, allied with Horus, and linked to some sort of cataclysm which later affected Caliban. Part of the evidence he tentatively marshals is "the odd disposition of certain elements of the First Legion". AK means this geographically and refers to known favourites of the Lion being stationed far from Caliban but I guess in a certain light you could take it to refer to Lutherite warriors being sent out to garrison places as well. Might be a bit generous there.

 

That said, I sort of thought Wolf King was fairly unambiguous about who they were. "We were sent to this place by Caliban’s protector, following shameful orders that were obsolete before they were given. It is he who we follow, and it is by his will that you live or die." Lutherite marines, resentful of the Lion, sent to garrison isolated locations outside Caliban as part of a low-key project of building an anti-Lion power base within the legion. It's big geopolitical stuff but it's also the kind of thing AK might not be expected to know, though that sounds a bit like an excuse.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think the inference of Luther there is AK incorrectly reasoning about the conflict in the Scouring, because he doesn't have access to the records. We, the readers, are supposed to know this is incorrect, which is why it was a funny part.

[Sandlemad]

I think the inference of Luther there is AK incorrectly reasoning about the conflict in the Scouring, because he doesn't have access to the records. We, the readers, are supposed to know this is incorrect, which is why it was a funny part.

 

Oh I get that, same as when he remarks on the curious silence of some parts of the DA leadership early on in the heresy. Just laying out how it could also loosely refer to Luther's own troop movements during the heresy, the ones that led to the Chimaera starfort being in the Alaxxes nebula. It's a stretch though.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I have a feeling we're going to learn more about Luther in a later black book.

I'll be interested to see what they do with him.

[DarkChaplain]

We're getting a Characters-series HH novel about him, so yeah. We're gonna learn more.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Yes, there is that as well.

 

That should be coming out in October if I remember correctly. That is only a few weeks out.

 

Looks like preorder the 24th, so about a month out.

Edited September 23, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[caladancid]

It almost physically hurts me that I let myself get excited about this novel even after reading the reviews here.

 

I just got to the part where Guymer says "From the Legion level do through that of orders, cohorts, companies, and ultimately the individual knight, the Dark Angels eschewed specialization, at least overtly, preferring to be the master in every potential arena of war."  What in the world.  Of course, sitting next to me I have Crusade- which says the exact opposite.

 

And I just have to wonder whether the problem is David Guymer's almost pathological joy in not reading source material prior to writing a novel, or the editor' fault, or Forgeworld's lately less than stellar efforts.  Either way, what a huge disappointment and waste.

[Attias]

For the first time ever, I'm having difficulty with the Black Library site. I've been getting server error messages all day so I can't even download the book! And of course, the place isn't open on the weekends so I won't likely hear back from their Helpdesk until Monday. So disappointing (

[MegaVolt87]

"By dying in droves, we prove our awesomeness to other legions"

 

Sounds like a plan

 

*laughs in IV legion*

 

Also salty Bobby is salty. Too busy husbanding the lives of his large legion for the Imperium while sparing no expense for Ultramar's expansion and supremacy. 

[WARMASTER_]

I just got to the part where Guymer says "From the Legion level do through that of orders, cohorts, companies, and ultimately the individual knight, the Dark Angels eschewed specialization, at least overtly, preferring to be the master in every potential arena of war." What in the world. Of course, sitting next to me I have Crusade- which says the exact opposite.

 

And I just have to wonder whether the problem is David Guymer's almost pathological joy in not reading source material prior to writing a novel, or the editor' fault, or Forgeworld's lately less than stellar efforts. Either way, what a huge disappointment and waste.

I think you’ve misunderstood his meaning in this quote, what he’s saying is that the dark angels themselves don’t have a certain favoured way of warfare but excel at all disciplines, so BA = Shock assault, Imperial fists = Static defence, DA are the template for all other legions as they’re the first so they had to excel in every way of warfare

 

For me this was a great book! well researched and finally showing the DA for what they’re supposed to represent amongst the legions!

 

Also finally for the first time ever a reasonable and well thought out idea for the basis of inner circles and secrets within the legion originating for the lions youth alone of Caliban and his well founded belief in humanities fallibility

 

Apart from savage weapons it’s the best dark angels book so far

[Fedor]

It only showed us what Dark Angels themselves feel they represent among the legions.

 

Basically vastly arrogant knights that consider themselves the best in all facets of warfare and see all the other legions as beneath them. That's ok i guess, and understandable starting point in context of them being the first legion and the largest/most powerful through much of the early to mid crusade, though i didn't find the look at that culture this book gave us very interesting. No attempt to really look at it from a perspective that gives us more nuance on any character or collective cultural aspect involved.

 

It's entertaining enough as a slight battle book, but the exact kind of starchy supplement to tabletop concerns i feel this series should be avoiding...a stale run through of legion culture bulletpoints and unit types much better served read in a codex/forgeworld black book setting.

 

There was just a feeling of wasted potential for me upon finishing a recent 2nd read, especially as i like most of Guymer's work and he is definitely a talented writer. I'm also a former DA player back in 2nd/3rd edition and was eager for a non-thorpe take on them (though i still love what Gav did back in the day with AoD, that sort of fallen stuff is getting played out by now). I think the new direction of 30k Dark angels lore just isn't to my tastes and seems overegged with fanservice. Maybe i'll change my mind when i fully read Crusade.

Edited October 19, 2020 by Fedor

[caladancid]

 

I just got to the part where Guymer says "From the Legion level do through that of orders, cohorts, companies, and ultimately the individual knight, the Dark Angels eschewed specialization, at least overtly, preferring to be the master in every potential arena of war." What in the world. Of course, sitting next to me I have Crusade- which says the exact opposite.

 

And I just have to wonder whether the problem is David Guymer's almost pathological joy in not reading source material prior to writing a novel, or the editor' fault, or Forgeworld's lately less than stellar efforts. Either way, what a huge disappointment and waste.

I think you’ve misunderstood his meaning in this quote, what he’s saying is that the dark angels themselves don’t have a certain favoured way of warfare but excel at all disciplines, so BA = Shock assault, Imperial fists = Static defence, DA are the template for all other legions as they’re the first so they had to excel in every way of warfare

 

For me this was a great book! well researched and finally showing the DA for what they’re supposed to represent amongst the legions!

 

Also finally for the first time ever a reasonable and well thought out idea for the basis of inner circles and secrets within the legion originating for the lions youth alone of Caliban and his well founded belief in humanities fallibility

 

Apart from savage weapons it’s the best dark angels book so far

 

 

I just noticed my typo that may have contributed to your post- "do" should have been "down."  

 

Your interpretation would be more accurate if he had left out the part about generalization being the rule through the knight level.  I could buy the DA being overall ready for anything, in fact that seems the point of the various circles.  But individual knights? They are clearly specialists.

[WrathOfTheLion]

The individual knights are specialists, each knight order is devoted to one particular subject. They would fluidly change command structure so that those suited would be appointed to lead.

The one in the book is, according to Crusade, devoted to fighting psychically parasitic xenos, such as the Rangda.

 

So the Knight order of the Santales' job was to fight Rangda, Khrave and other psychically parasitic xenos races. Hence why their equipment allocated was specialized to the job, this was a particular order devoted to that subject. So it tries to illustrate the fluidity of the command structure, where when faced with a certain threat, the 1st Legion would appoint a specialized Wing and possibly Knight order to lead in place of the typical structure. In the book, they are fighting the Khrave so they defer to the Santales order, who are specialized in fighting this particular breed of xenos, which we can learn from Crusade that the 1st Legion has been fighting since the Unification Wars.

 

Really, I think the lore of the 1st Legion from Crusade is sort of a prerequisite read I think. I'll be going through the novel again, as I've already sort of done the piecing together of what really is prerequisite knowledge. This to me is why the general release comes months after the black book release.

Edited October 19, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[WARMASTER_]

I just noticed my typo that may have contributed to your post- "do" should have been "down."

 

Your interpretation would be more accurate if he had left out the part about generalization being the rule through the knight level. I could buy the DA being overall ready for anything, in fact that seems the point of the various circles. But individual knights? They are clearly specialists.

My take away was that even individual knights also have many specialties you could be a tactical marine of the 9th order 5th company but also be part of the fire wing and also part of one of the hundred orders in that have a secret purpose or specific task Edited October 19, 2020 by BladeOfVengeance