The Primarchs: Lion El'Jonson

[Knockagh]

In the warhammer community post it say, quote

"This deluxe numbered hardback will be available in very limited quantities in Warhammer stores – so get to your local store early if you want to get it!"

 

Does that mean they will have a physical copy in the store and that it can't be ordered online?

It says all the books available in store will be available online.

But it doesn’t mention the limited edition Horus rising that was talked about a while ago. Back then (if I remember right) it was mentioned that it would only be available in Warhammer world on that weekend. I’m certainly hoping they have a change of heart on this and offer it online.

[aa.logan]

Further down the article they say “ If you can’t make it to a Warhammer store, fear not! All the books and merchandise listed above will be available online – and you’ll get the free Celebration anthology with your order!”.

 

I made the same mistake...

[Brother Cruoris]

Ah. Many thanks!

Maybe next time I'll read through the whole article. =P

[kamedake88]

Picked up the limited edition today from my local store. I will report on it later. Also; eat a big bag of dung scalpers.

Edited February 29, 2020 by kamedake88

[StrangerOrders]

Well I managed to pick up one of the copies and am already encountering really cool stuff I want to discuss! The other threads seemed to be pre-release threads so it seemed appropriate to make a new one!

 

Anyway, its really cool so far!

 

So one of the first things we learn is that the Ironwing are indeed Techmarines. Uniquely, they do not ever train under the Mechanicum and are instead trained by the Emp's Tech-Wrights on Terra. This leads to a fairly small mechanicum Contingent on the fleet and strange mannerisms in the ironwing.

We also learn the Lion sees the Emp as a Giant Watcher and believes all other perceptions of him are invalid.

 

The Story is also set shortly after the last of the Rangda Xenocides with the fleet still sporting scars from the last fight, although apparently the Lion is hiding exactly how bad the casualties were even from the council of Masters (which is apparently a thing).

Edited February 29, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[Jareddm]

I believe we previously saw the council of masters in Dreadwing.

Also I don't know how I feel about all the techmarines being Ironwing. I kinda figured the regular support roles would be present in every wing as sub-specialties. I assume Ironwing is more than just techmarines though.

[StrangerOrders]

I believe we previously saw the council of masters in Dreadwing.

 

Also I don't know how I feel about all the techmarines being Ironwing. I kinda figured the regular support roles would be present in every wing as sub-specialties. I assume Ironwing is more than just techmarines though.

Well their master uses the terms interchangeably, I am early in the book but one really interesting thing is that a Sergeant's heraldry is described as listing his rank in each of the other wings. And when we see masters interact we see that position is contextual (no one gainsay's the master of the Ironwing on the Invincible Reason because he is its Castellan despite having otherwise equivalent ranks).

 

Its also very specific in how he uses the term, the Ironwing IS the Techmarines and vice-versa. Their training is specifically different from the Techmarines though and they are numerous enough to keep the fleet operable with very few priests. That implies that what we consider 'proper' Techmarines is best approximated by a certain rank within the Ironwing and upwards. So that leads me to think that the Ironwing is either small and specialized or the ironwing is large and is much more machine-savy like the IV or the X, if they utterly disregard the Mechanicum, why on earth would their Techmarines follow them in other fashions?

 

Also, Destroyers are specifically Dreadwing so that idea is kind of right out the window since they are specialists.

 

Also my timeline was wrong, the story is set after ULLANOR. So that means the DAngel's fleet is still rocking considerable damage from a century past... Wow, I knew Horus could be a dick but this is kind of extreme even for him. (Forgeworld books go alot into how he habitually screwed the supply lines of Legions he didnt like so Im assuming he had a hand in this.)

Edited February 29, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[Jareddm]

 

I believe we previously saw the council of masters in Dreadwing.

Also I don't know how I feel about all the techmarines being Ironwing. I kinda figured the regular support roles would be present in every wing as sub-specialties. I assume Ironwing is more than just techmarines though.

 

Well their master uses the terms interchangeably, I am early in the book but one really interesting thing is that a Sergeant's heraldry is described as listing his rank in each of the other wings. And when we see masters interact we see that position is contextual (no one gainsay's the master of the Ironwing on the Invincible Reason because he is its Castellan despite having otherwise equivalent ranks).

Its also very specific in how he uses the term, the Ironwing IS the Techmarines and vice-versa. Their training is specifically different from the Techmarines though and they are numerous enough to keep the fleet operable with very few priests. That implies that what we consider 'proper' Techmarines is best approximated by a certain rank within the Ironwing and upwards. So that leads me to think that the Ironwing is either small and specialized or the ironwing is large and is much more machine-savy like the IV or the X, if they utterly disregard the Mechanicum, why on earth would their Techmarines follow them in other fashions?

Also, Destroyers are specifically Dreadwing so that idea is kind of right out the window since they are specialists.

Dang, that's too bad. Though it makes me almost hope that the legion has no legitimate techmarines at all, like how the Salamanders have no legitimate destroyers. It'd be an interesting angle and appropriate for the First Legion.

[StrangerOrders]

So the main foe seems to be something psychic akin to a contagion...

Anyway! Most of the Librarius apparently serves the Dreadwing but Librarians gifted with divination for hidden things gety pulled into the Firewing. Interestingly Chaplains seem to exist in large numbers in the Firewing, the book is vague on whether they are exclusively in there.

 

The Invincible reason is 28km long, which iirc, would make it one of the largest Glorianas.

 

Also, has the Lion's pistol been dealt with before? The book stops to describe it and it seems to predate the Imperium and is purely Old Night tech.

 

ho... Indra-Sul comes up... Are the Khrave in this book? Never read a book about them before.

Edited February 29, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[StrangerOrders]

Why am I not shocked that the Dark Angels can't bury the dead like nomral people? Their tombs are literally labyrinths!

 

Oh my, they actually included the new Forgeworld Units! Cenobium show up. At the very least the inner circle of the Order of Santales is called that. Running them together it seems that Cenobium units are formed from members of the inner circle of each order. Amusingly, they dont keep track of identities in meetings. Not going to list the full detail but I can really see why the Warrior Lodges failed, they are almost juvenile compared to how needlessly complex the DAngels are.

 

Also, yes, its definitely the Khrave. The order of Santales are specialists in them apparently. Interestingly, the book notes that it isnt that it would be hard to figure out who is in an order but it would be intolerably dishonorable to do so.

[StrangerOrders]

Well, just finished the book.

 

Overall, I quite liked it. You see alot of what made the First legion Unique (something woefully lacking despite their book count in the HH imo) and you got to see some really messed up Xenos that makes the Imperium's general stance seem at least somewhat reasonable.

 

The Lion is a proud ass, so much so that he would trap himself in self- were he not so dutiful. He is like a super-Perturabo who ironically thinks too little of people's opinions to think their praise would matter even if he got it. This book makes it seem pretty clear why half the Legion turned traitor and the other half turned psycho. 

 

Overall, a pretty good read. Highly recommend!

 

Willing to answer any questions folks have about the book's contents!

 

All of the Forgeworld Units got in btw, which was cool, and we got hints at some more to come!

 

Special mention to the first having enslaved Men of Iron.

Edited March 1, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[b1soul]

Liking what I'm hearing a lot:

 

Especially the legacy of Rangda, Terran Tech-Wrights (which I hope survived into 40K as a secret underground guild) and enslaved Men of Iron

 

Rangda must have happened after Dulan, correct?

[StrangerOrders]

Liking what I'm hearing a lot:

 

Especially the legacy of Rangda, Terran Tech-Wrights (which I hope survived into 40K as a secret underground guild) and enslaved Men of Iron

 

Rangda must have happened after Dulan, correct?

Well, we know from Forgeworld that the Rangda was around the turn of the century and that Dulan was early in the Crusade (The Lion was recently found in that book).

 

We also know that the Wolves and Angels worked closely during the Xenocides but that Dulan was the Lion and Russ's first meeting.

 

Usually this I would shrug off but Guymer is one of the writers that pays most attention to Forgeworld lore.

 

The enslaved AI are kinda hilarious btw, they are trapped into their chassis and the guy controlling them does so by virtue of having his thumb on their kill-switch the entire time.

 

The book is also interesting tbh if you are introspective. The First do not CARE about other's opinions but at the same time the book makes it clear that they have a massive chip on their shoulders.

 

People that are actually humble and do not care do not spend every two minutes complaining about how their Legion can do things as well as other Legions but that normies are too stupid to get it. Add to that the Lion literally considers other Primarchs to be inferior knockoffs of himself and that only his impression of the Emp can be valid. The book is really good in that it shows how awesome the angels are but ALSO how cripplingly unself-aware they are and how many red flags about what they would become (as both loyalists and traitors) they ignored.

 

I meant it when I compared the Lion to a more extreme Perturabo (Minus the temper). He seems to not believe other people DESERVE to praise him but that they should and are simply too dumb to do so and that he doesnt need it anyway. He is sort of like that guy that goes out of his way to do impressive things and then wiggle his eyebrows until you compliment him only for him to say that it is not a big deal and shrug at how helpless you are for needing his help. He literally goes off on random nonsequetors about how his legion are stealthier than nightlords or better siegewrights than the IW or IF but that the broader imperium is simply too dumb to get it. But its fine, because he doesnt need them to... totally.

 

Its kind of hilarious, more so in that he believes this so unironically that he can reverse mind-probes to counter probe psykers.

 

The guy is literally weaponized arrogance tbh.... or a standard Tsundere, I can't quite tell which....

Edited March 1, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[kamedake88]

Thank you Stranger for writing all of this out. You last post is incredibly enlightening. BL has been building to this point with the Lion and the Dark Angels for years now albeit with only showing their nuance via, forgive me, poorly written teenage angst. It's still quite amazing to me how hamstrung Black Library has been with fleshing out the Legion whilst trying and failing to escape the legacy Gav Thorpe wrote for them all those years ago in Angels of Darkness. The Dark Angels are my faction and have been since I got into the setting almost 17 years ago now. In 2003, Angels of Darkness was the first thing I read from the setting and at the time was a monumental work that informed a not insignificant portion of the fiction. But the book also cast a very large shadowy circle Gav's later work on the Dark Angels and it's Horus Heresy iteration spent a massive amount of ink trying to square. And in my humble opinion failed at doing so. The narrative went from a concrete 'Holy crap damn near half of us went traitor and we better hide that from an unforgiving Imperium lest we all get purged Yezhov style', to a decade of youtube videos and memes of 'the Lion was a secret traitor lying in wait with secret plans and a secret mustache and he wears black eyeliner because the world doesn't understand him. It looks like this book settles the matter and it turns out the Lion 

was just a massive dick and his progeny have been dealing with the consequences for thousands of years

 A conclusion to their character and nuance I am fine with. Edited March 1, 2020 by kamedake88

[StrangerOrders]

Thank you Stranger for writing all of this out. You last post is incredibly enlightening. BL has been building to this point with the Lion and the Dark Angels for years now albeit with only showing their nuance via, forgive me, poorly written teenage angst. It's still quite amazing to me how hamstrung Black Library has been with fleshing out the Legion whilst trying and failing to escape the legacy Gav Thorpe wrote for them all those years ago in Angels of Darkness. The Dark Angels are my faction and have been since I got into the setting almost 17 years ago now. In 2003, Angels of Darkness was the first thing I read from the setting and at the time was a monumental work that informed a not insignificant portion of the fiction. But the book also cast a very large shadowy circle Gav's later work on the Dark Angels and it's Horus Heresy iteration spent a massive amount of ink trying to square. And in my humble opinion failed at doing so. The narrative went from a concrete 'Holy crap damn near half of us went traitor and we better hide that from an unforgiving Imperium lest we all get purged Yezhov style', to a decade of youtube videos and memes of 'the Lion was a secret traitor lying in wait with secret plans and a secret mustache and he wears black eyeliner because the world doesn't understand him. I looks like this book settles the matter and it turns out the Lion 

was just a massive dick and his progeny have been dealing with the consequences for thousands of years

 . A conclusion to their character and nuance I am fine with.

My big dirty secret is that I couldnt make it past the Descent of Angels in the DA narrative of the HH, not for lack of trying since I have bought each bloody book, but they are just usually painfully hard to get through for some reason.

 

Namely because I just could not feel any real identity from them, that is absolutely not something I can say for this book, I could not possibly have a clearer idea of who they are. Save perhaps for when i get my greedy mitts on Crusade. 

 

Its even funnier, and I can say this without it really being a spoiler. That the Lion does go out of his way to say and show that he loves his sons, but he is similar to alot of the harsher Primarchs in that he is ever raising the bar of expectation. He is is very much a 'I will compliment you for this the first time and expect double the next' kind of Primarch. Interestingly, he explicitly notes that he sees it as a filial 'father-son' in addition to the feeling of a commander. You don;t often see Primarchs say it that plainly.

 

There is a funny thing where a DAngel bodyguard pleads to atone for a percieved failure. The Lion more or less shrugs and more or less says 'erm.. this isn;t really on you but I know Marines won't process that so you go on ahead and do whatever you feel you need to sonny boy'.

 

Its a bit at odds with what he did to Nemial, he does not even remotely come across as the kind of Primarch that would directly harm one of his sons in this book. They are actually the only people he treats with something approaching decency. He will spend them as needed but taking them seems really bizarre for him.

 

Its also bizarrely funny to have the Ironbringer note that the First became less mysterious after finding the Lion, I am not even sure how you can get more convoluted than they already but its funny to try and picture it!

Edited March 1, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[b1soul]

The Lion is a great Space Dad when he isn't

judo chopping your    head off

Whose super-secret secrets are even more secret...DA or AL? I think it makes sense that Wraight picked the DA as the Legion who tried to infiltrate the AL. It might even have worked for a while as it's something so seemingly hubristic the AL might've never expected it Edited March 1, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead
swear dodge

[Sviox]

For those considering the timeline (not really spoilers from this book..):

~820.M30: Russ is discovered

~845.M30: Lion is discovered (After Sanguinius in 843 and before Perturabo in 849)

860.M30: 1st Rangdan Xenocide with Space Wolves and Dark Angels both, along with the lost legions (Primarch of XI not yet found at this point)

870.M30: Battle of Durath with Space Wolves and Dark Angels both present

881.M30: 2nd Rangdan Xenocide with Space Wolves and Death Guard

899.M30: 3rd Rangdan Xenocide with Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Alpha Legion

 

Only including confirmed participants. Hope this helps.

[mc warhammer]

The Lion is a great Space Dad when he isn't

judo chopping your    head off

 

Whose super-secret secrets are even more secret...DA or AL? I think it makes sense that Wraight picked the DA as the Legion who tried to infiltrate the AL. It might even have worked for a while as it's something so seemingly hubristic the AL might've never expected it

when did the DA attempt to infiltrate the AL?

Edited March 1, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[Fire Golem]

 

The Lion is a great Space Dad when he isn't

judo chopping your    head off

 

Whose super-secret secrets are even more secret...DA or AL? I think it makes sense that Wraight picked the DA as the Legion who tried to infiltrate the AL. It might even have worked for a while as it's something so seemingly hubristic the AL might've never expected it

when did the DA attempt to infiltrate the AL?

 

In Wolf King, I think, when they did the same to the Space Wolves. 

Edited March 1, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[b1soul]

They sent one infiltrator into the VIth fleet and one into the XXth fleet around Alaxxes

 

Maybe a follow-up short story about the latter attempt. The former was covered in Wolf King and resulted in the salvation of the VIth.

[bluntblade]

That was in Wolf King. I do quite like that

In communication with the one who the Wolves capture, the DA commander just goes "we haven't heard from him, which isn't really a surprise."

[Marshal Loss]

Reading from elsewhere, the Lion's bodyguards wear bone-white Terminator armour? Interesting change

[RedFurioso]

899.M30: 3rd Rangdan Xenocide with Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Alpha Legion

The 3rd Rangdan Xenocide ended in ~930.M30

[Kenzaburo]

Funny that you would be so happy with the book, StrangerOrders. I disliked it - quite a bit, actually. There's a bunch of stuff in there, that didn't sit right with me: 

• Astartes are genetically bound to follow Primarch orders (well, that would have made Isstvan unnecessary, wouldn't it)
• enslaved Men of Iron, along with the ongoing hubris of Johnson, that only the First would be allowed this
• the idea, that the First is the real executioner, the final sanction, and that the Wolves are just for show
• the entire organisation, where noone really knows anything about anyone and your command chain is a complete mess - most military units would really struggle with this
• Did I mention the insane hubris of the Lion? He is certain, that only he is able to see the Emperor for what he really is, all others are just deluded
• Terminators attacking a warhound head-on, because Cataphractii plate is the only infantry armour capable of withstanding its firepower (they are literally just running right at it)
• Astartes running from cover to cover and stopping midway out in the open, because they need to reload their weapons
• The battle on the enemy's ship at the end where the author seems to forget about some of the units being there or actually being already destroyed and such...
• The First truly believe to be the first among equals - they truly believe that they are as good as Iron Warriors and Fists, when it comes to siegecraft, as good at stealth as the Raven Guard and so on and so forth - they just don't feel the need to brag about it all the time...yeah, sure.

 

I really struggled with the book - and ended up with a huge dislike for the First. Their pompous behaviour, along with the ridiculous secrecy, was just annoying me. I mean, if the intention was to show a legion so full of itself than sure, the book succeeded. To be honest, that might have been the point - but the arrogance and at the same time ineptitude to get their crap together and tell each other what's going on, was driving me insane.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Kenzaburo

[RedFurioso]

 

• Terminators attacking a warhound head-on

Can you tell more about the warhound? Why terminators attack it? Which Titan Legio is it?