The Primarchs: Lion El'Jonson

[Kelborn]

Lads,

One advice.

Geneseed and certain fraters of our community are/ were/ will not (be) part of this particular book at anytime soon...

 

You can guess the rest for yourselves. :)

[RedFurioso]

 

But seriously - we have seen chaos-infused Lorgar take on a warhound and suffer for it. Why the Lion even thinks he can take on the warhound with a SWORD is ridiculous.

Because Primarchs can kill a Titan-size enemies. Sangunius even killed Imperator-class Titan.

 

>He had fought the greatest champions of xenos races, had brought down creatures that stood as tall as Warhound Titans (Scars)

[rendingon1+]

Forrix has also destroyed a Warhound, unless I remember it wrong. And he's not even a primarch.

[StrangerOrders]

Fun fact, I went back to reread the section.

 

Not only is it not portrayed as a dumb move, but it is described as one of the reasons their Secutarii exist. Apparently a very good way of taking down titans is getting too close for them to effectively target and aiming for their legs, more exposed components and doors. 

 

Problem is that the method is not usually executed under those... erm... *particular* circumstances.

[Indefragable]

Don't forget the IF had an entire formation called Titanhammer made up of Thunder hammer + storm shield terminators (led by one Darnath Lysander) whose purpose was to teleport in close and whack the titans' toes [citation on actual methodology needed] until they fell over. 

[Gederas]

Fun fact, I went back to reread the section.

 

Not only is it not portrayed as a dumb move, but it is described as one of the reasons their Secutarii exist. Apparently a very good way of taking down titans is getting too close for them to effectively target and aiming for their legs, more exposed components and doors. 

 

Problem is that the method is not usually executed under those... erm... *particular* circumstances.

Don't forget the IF had an entire formation called Titanhammer made up of Thunder hammer + storm shield terminators (led by one Darnath Lysander) whose purpose was to teleport in close and whack the titans' toes [citation on actual methodology needed] until they fell over. 

It seems that is a recurring theme with Titans. When I was reading the Night Lords trilogy, Talos and Co. take out a Warhound by.... Getting too close for it to target them and attacking its feet. In Warlord: Fury of the God Machine, one of the Titans (iirc, a Reaver or Warlord) nearly gets taken out by Tyranids assaulting it's legs (said Titan's Secutarii get rid of them, but the bugs almost get up to the titan's entry port for it's pilot crew area)

[Marshal Rohr]

They mentioned that in one of the live-streams too. Titans are planet killers, and not used for general compliance’s. If a Titan is on the ground, it’s there as support, not a spearhead. Unless they’re trying to totally eradicate something (which is what they’re doing going by the spoilers)

[b1soul]

Titans are more like city killers? Planet killers? I guess if you have enough...

[Kelborn]

I was told that the end scene from the Russ Primarch novel, which included the Lion, is covered in this one, as well.

 

Does that happen?

[Kenzaburo]

You guys, alright, alright, infantry can take down titans. But, as I said before, it's my point of view, that the whole scene seemed silly. It read to me like watching the text version of the Michael Bay-style circular camera shot around the lion, striking a pose to take on the warhound. It kinda read cheesy. Certainly there are ways to damage a titan with CC weapons and tactics.

 

Still, I felt Lorgar's battle with the warhound in Betrayer a more fitting and "realistic" depiction than this anime-posing-character-theme-playing scene. Anyways, it is just one little scene in the book - as I said before, I had more things not sitting right with me, that might sit right with you, though. Where's the big deal?

 

And on the note of Sanguinius killing an Imperator titan - I never heard of that, but tbh, that sounds kinda dumb to me. Of course, this still might be a matter of circumstance. I remember when Mkoll took out that Chaos Dreadnought in one of the GG books and everybody was screaming bloody murder. When I finally read the scene myself, I wasn't sure what all the fuzz was about - didn't seem that impossible to me. 

But: Some authors will go for huge action scenes with a little less thought put into it - it feels like watching a pretty basic action movie - and there's authors, where the scenes are a bit more thought out. And this book had more of the former, less of the latter, in my view. 

 

@Kelborn: What was the end of the Russ novel? I could tell you then. From what I do remember about the Lion novel, there was only some (condescending) talk about Russ when the Lion was thinking of the other Primarchs, but no scene with him in it. 

[Kelborn]

Hm...seems like the person was misinformed then.

 

I was refering to their "confrontation" on Terra.

[Karhedron]

And on the note of Sanguinius killing an Imperator titan - I never heard of that, but tbh, that sounds kinda dumb to me. Of course, this still might be a matter of circumstance.

It is in Titandeath and yes, circumstances are everything.

 

Sanguinius and the Sanguinary Guard drop onto the Imperator from above, fight their way in and destroy it from the inside. He is not literally duelling it face-to-face.

 

Also Sanguinius has a certain amount of plot armour at this point as he knows he is destined to die on the Vengeful Spirit, not Beta Garmon. This means he is fighting at full fury with little concern for his own protection. He wants to cause the traitors as much damage as possible.

Edited March 4, 2020 by Karhedron

[rendingon1+]

 

And on the note of Sanguinius killing an Imperator titan - I never heard of that, but tbh, that sounds kinda dumb to me. Of course, this still might be a matter of circumstance.

It is in Titandeath and yes, circumstances are everything.

 

Sanguinius and the Sanguinary Guard drop onto the Imperator from above, fight their way in and destroy it from the inside. He is not literally duelling it face-to-face.

 

Also Sanguinius has a certain amount of plot armour at this point as he knows he is destined to die on the Vengeful Spirit, not Beta Garmon. This means he is fighting at full fury with little concern for his own protection. He wants to cause the traitors as much damage as possible.

There's also Sangunius-killing-Titan instance in one of Black Books.

Against this massing of force, the Imperial assault first faltered and was checked, as even the Titans of the Legio Fureans landing with the second wave were swiftly torn apart by the Witch-Idol and its kinsmen, though it is said that the Angel Sanguinius destroyed one of their number himself, tearing open its head with his bare hands and sending it crashing to destruction before being struck a grievous blow by the Warlock's psi-lance from which none other would have survived.

(Enemy/Titans were eldar)

 

Seriously, having problem with primarchs doing outlandish stuff in heroic manner is difficult to understand considering that... they are primarchs.

 

Oh, and the scene with Mkoll killing DG dreadnought IS stupid, one of examples of Abnetts "muh Ghosts better than astartes" problem. Wonder why you have no problem with that, hm.

Edited March 4, 2020 by rendingon1+

[Indefragable]

To go off of what @Karhedron said above...

 

From Titandeath :

....it actually works quite well since Sangy + co time their drop assault on it right as their void shields are cycling from a timed “suppressive” blast from friendly assets (the spear of Telesto as well? Can’t recall) so they can slip in and assault the command station and break into the crew compartment. A Sang Guard bringing up the rear doesn’t make it through the void shield reboot in time ala the end battle of Rogue One for what it’s worth.

 

In short, it’s depicted as a very risky daredevil maneuver, but one that would severely bolster the morale of the loyalists if it’s pulled off.....pretty much exactly what Sangy is built for...

 

 

...and from one of the FW Black books:

....seems like Sanguinius has practice taking on titans since there is an Eldar planet during the Great Crusade where the Eldars has a high concentration of pay-titans. Sanguinius flies up to one and rips it’s head off...literally....but then gets hit by the beam of another one, rendering him ineffective for the rest of the battle. This is what leads the Ordo Sinister to be deployed.

 

Bear in mind that Eldar stuff is lithe and graceful, so it could be easier to remove the head of one of them compared to other classes (like Orkz). Also, that sort of dramatic high-visibility Moment of Awesome Maneuver is pretty much Sanguinius’ whole thing.

 

...he also gets “felled” by a single shot from one as well so I think it’s a fair depiction of what’s possible on both sides of a Primarch vs Titan encounter.

 

 

I’ve always thought of small infantry units as being one of the unit types that Titans would actually struggle with: their weapons are so big and powerful they have trouble locking on and calibrating against essentially ants. It’s like trying to aim a Barret .50 against a chipmunk: if it actually hits the results will be comically disgustingly overkill....but good luck trying to get that to work. Alternatively, think of the (actual Star Wars) Death Star: unfairly good against capital ships and planets yet it’s big weakness is a one-man snub fighter (that and not being fully operational in time

).

[rendingon1+]

Yup, quite a few examples of how Titans get swarmed/destroyed by infantry in "close combat". Helsreach (orks vs Imperator), Wrath of Iron (demonettes vs warhounds) from the top of my head. Edited March 4, 2020 by rendingon1+

[Kenzaburo]

Again, I've got not much against large amounts of infantry attacking and even taking down a titan. Even smaller forces, depending on circumstance and weaponry / tools used, will be able to.

 

But if you've read my post, I have a problem with the depiction in this book. And yes, it still might be just me. So maybe we should give that certain part of my issues a rest - it's not like I keep on disagreeing with you overall. ;)

 

On that Mkoll part though: a blinded, heavily damaged dread struggling through some swamps can't be taken out by some crafty guardsman? But you're okay with the idea of a Primarch ripping apart a titan head with his hands? Well then, I think we might have very differing tastes. :) But since you mentioned it - I got an overall issue with Primarchs doing ridiculous stuff and an overall difference in their abilities depending on authors. Have them be supersmart, if a bit emotionally retarded, have them be great strategists and monsters in overall battle. Have them be nigh invincible to most mundane damage. But as soon as Avengers-style antics come into the mix, I have issues with it. I prefer my 40k to be more military sci-fantasy fiction, and less superheros in space. It's still my biggest gripe with Unremembered Empire and why Know no Fear was so great.

 

Anyways, let's get back on topic - this is about the Lion primarch novel. I'm eager to hear what the rest of you thought after reading it. :) It's way more "productive" than discussing of fictional super dudes are able to rip titans to pieces by hand. :D

[Fedor]

During a reddit summary on the book one of the points posted is this...

 

In fact, the DA are described as the Emperor's Exterminators. Russ and the Wolves are said to be the "threat," and meant to mostly be a deterrent. The DA are what will burn the galaxy and leave nothing but dust and ash so the Emperor can build anew. Word for word they are The Final Solution. I am not kidding this was in a BL novel.

 

Any clarification on that? is this a legion viewpoint thing like with the Wolves? It also doesn't seem to be the smartest phrase to be using to say the least.

[Kenzaburo]

Sure thing:

 

That was something stated by the Dark Angels, not someone else in the Imperium. It's either the Lion stating it or maybe the Psyker character. So no, it's not that official - BUT: The fact that the DAs possess a whole vault full of forbidden tech, enslaved Men of Iron and all that lends credence to the basic idea - in universe, at least.

 

It's what StrangerOrders mentioned before, when the example of old Egypt is cited: If you want something to vanish, to never show up in history again, like a whole civilization just going "poof" - you call the Dark Angesl. The Lion even contemplates that while Guilliman and the like actually build the Imperium, he's just there to leave nothing but ash. The Emperor than replies that there are cases where this is necessary so not to hinder a peaceful future, basically. 

Edited March 4, 2020 by Kenzaburo

[Darkwrath121]

Is there any mention of the size of the legion? I know Crusade will be coming out in however many months with a solid figure, but I'm curious while I wait for my own copy of this to arrive.

[b1soul]

So both the DA and the SW like to think of themselves as the final sanction, though I think the SW view themselves as more of an internal police force, whereas the DA burn hostile or non-compliant civilisations to ashes. In both cases, I think there's a grain of truth that has been hyped up by the respective primarchs.

[Indefragable]

So both the DA and the SW like to think of themselves as the final sanction, though I think the SW view themselves as more of an internal police force, whereas the DA burn hostile or non-compliant civilisations to ashes. In both cases, I think there's a grain of truth that has been hyped up by the respective primarchs.

 

I agree on the .......awkwardness.....to put it mildly.....of the phrasing. 

 

In any case...

 

...I actually like this aspect of it. For a while now I've seen the DA and SW as two sides to the same coin: they have more in common then either side cares to admit...and that's what makes their rivalry so fierce (yet ultimately friendly when external threats appear). 

 

At the 2019 HH Weekender, when talking to Simon Egan about upcoming designs (he actually asked some of us what we'd "like to see" with Khan and Lion models...he could have just been making talk), I mentioned that I would love to see the Lion posed in such a way that he could replace Magnus in the diorama set vs Russ. I like the idea of the Lion being the one who can "take the charge" and use it to his advantage in juxtaposition to Russ as the one who's always charging head-first into the foe. 

 

In that vein, the Wolves are the hounds and the Dark Angels are the hunters; one is the loud, braying, foe that will rip the prey to shreds or drive them away with their bark, while the other is the stoic hunter, waiting patiently to unfairly trap or swiftly shoot down the fleeing prey. 

 

Part of the difference is that one is meant to be seen doing the dirty work (SW), while the other is meant to have the work already done and mopped up by the time anyone arrives see anything (DA....and the difference between the DA and AL in that regard is the DA simply militarily make a threat disappear while the AL deal with threats that perhaps no one even knew existed). 

 

 

[Kenzaburo]

Great post, Indefragable. Your idea of the hounds and the hunters seems fitting. 

 

I'd say you are also right in the respective primarchs hyping up their role - although Russ seems to act more as an internal sanction, the DAs are more of an overall sanction with more focus on forces outside the Imperium. If you send the Wolves after someone, you also publicly sanction someone. What the DAs do, is very much hushed up. Fitting for their use of banned and forbidden weaponry.

 

If I remember correctly, the Dreadwing even possesses some weaponry in their vaults, that the Mechanicum doesn't know of - partially for the reason to use it against them, should they ever rebel. StrangerOrders might correct me on that, but I'm pretty sure it was mentioned in some throw-away lines, when the Master of the Dreadwing and the Psyker protagonist entered the vaults aboard the Invincible Reason.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

So both the DA and the SW like to think of themselves as the final sanction, though I think the SW view themselves as more of an internal police force, whereas the DA burn hostile or non-compliant civilisations to ashes. In both cases, I think there's a grain of truth that has been hyped up by the respective primarchs.

I agree on the .......awkwardness.....to put it mildly.....of the phrasing.

 

In any case...

 

...I actually like this aspect of it. For a while now I've seen the DA and SW as two sides to the same coin: they have more in common then either side cares to admit...and that's what makes their rivalry so fierce (yet ultimately friendly when external threats appear).

 

At the 2019 HH Weekender, when talking to Simon Egan about upcoming designs (he actually asked some of us what we'd "like to see" with Khan and Lion models...he could have just been making talk), I mentioned that I would love to see the Lion posed in such a way that he could replace Magnus in the diorama set vs Russ. I like the idea of the Lion being the one who can "take the charge" and use it to his advantage in juxtaposition to Russ as the one who's always charging head-first into the foe.

 

In that vein, the Wolves are the hounds and the Dark Angels are the hunters; one is the loud, braying, foe that will rip the prey to shreds or drive them away with their bark, while the other is the stoic hunter, waiting patiently to unfairly trap or swiftly shoot down the fleeing prey.

 

Part of the difference is that one is meant to be seen doing the dirty work (SW), while the other is meant to have the work already done and mopped up by the time anyone arrives see anything (DA....and the difference between the DA and AL in that regard is the DA simply militarily make a threat disappear while the AL deal with threats that perhaps no one even knew existed).

 

 

That’s a very interesting spin on the idea Anuj talked about in his Imperial Fist interview. Essentially the Emperor created each of legion with an eye for redundancy, and the Wolves and Dark Angels being his two designated exterminators for non-compliant civilizations makes a lot of sense.

[Karhedron]

Another thing to remember is that initially, the Dark Angels weren't even the first legion, they were simply THE Legion. I forget which book it is in (might be Angels of Caliban) but one of the characters notes that the large amount of unique and specialised equipment in the DAs arsenal reflects the fact that in the early days of the GC, they were expected to operate on their own without specialised support elements.

[rendingon1+]

Great post, Indefragable. Your idea of the hounds and the hunters seems fitting. 

 

I'd say you are also right in the respective primarchs hyping up their role - although Russ seems to act more as an internal sanction, the DAs are more of an overall sanction with more focus on forces outside the Imperium. If you send the Wolves after someone, you also publicly sanction someone. What the DAs do, is very much hushed up. Fitting for their use of banned and forbidden weaponry.

 

If I remember correctly, the Dreadwing even possesses some weaponry in their vaults, that the Mechanicum doesn't know of - partially for the reason to use it against them, should they ever rebel. StrangerOrders might correct me on that, but I'm pretty sure it was mentioned in some throw-away lines, when the Master of the Dreadwing and the Psyker protagonist entered the vaults aboard the Invincible Reason.

Ok, why people are getting worked up about that names/titles primrch get or give themselves? Like seriously, does it matter?

Facts are:

- if Leman is called time and time again to bloodily punish insurrection and make an example of someone be it world, race, individual etc. and he's the only one to do this, than yes he IS th "Executioner" (or any other name given to him by Court/Emperor/Malcador or even self made).

similarly:

- if Lion was handed down weapons of mass destruction and permission to use them, his legion (also) specializes in ereasing things from existence and his orders are: Make them :cussin disappear  and no other legion plays that game but the 1st: than yes, they are Extermintors whatever people like it or not.

 

It has nothing to do with primarchs hyping their roles or whatever, only in giving themselves titles that sound edgy.

Edited March 5, 2020 by rendingon1+