The Primarchs: Lion El'Jonson

[Indefragable]

Great post, Indefragable. Your idea of the hounds and the hunters seems fitting. 

 

I'd say you are also right in the respective primarchs hyping up their role - although Russ seems to act more as an internal sanction, the DAs are more of an overall sanction with more focus on forces outside the Imperium. If you send the Wolves after someone, you also publicly sanction someone. What the DAs do, is very much hushed up. Fitting for their use of banned and forbidden weaponry.

 

If I remember correctly, the Dreadwing even possesses some weaponry in their vaults, that the Mechanicum doesn't know of - partially for the reason to use it against them, should they ever rebel. StrangerOrders might correct me on that, but I'm pretty sure it was mentioned in some throw-away lines, when the Master of the Dreadwing and the Psyker protagonist entered the vaults aboard the Invincible Reason.

 

At the 2019 HH Weekender (not to keep bringing that up, but lots of good information from there that applies), Anuj and Neil gave a short preview on Book 9: (now called Crusade) and the Dark Angels. Some of the points they mentioned were (just as @Karhedron notes below) that part of the I Legion psyche is that they were THE Astartes, and THE Legion for a long time. Everyone else is kid brothers, so to speak. Secondly, they were deliberately sent out into the dark to do their own thing for a variety of reasons (being the first legion to do stuff, they had all the kinks worked out and so could be trusted to get stuff done). But they were also deliberately not equipped or supplied by the Mechanicum in any way...hence the Terranic Greatsword et al for their equipment. Even their "robots" are Terran-pattern as opposed to the Martian pattern the rest of the legion use. This was deliberately done by the Emperor since the I Legion would be his go-to resource should the alliance of Terra-Mars ever go south. 

 

...one of the most interesting parts I am excited to read about in the upcoming black book. 

 

Another thing to remember is that initially, the Dark Angels weren't even the first legion, they were simply THE Legion. I forget which book it is in (might be Angels of Caliban) but one of the characters notes that the large amount of unique and specialised equipment in the DAs arsenal reflects the fact that in the early days of the GC, they were expected to operate on their own without specialised support elements.

[b1soul]

I think in Wolf King, it's unclear to what extent the executioner role is actually decreed by the Emperor vs. something the Wolves tell themselves to build a psychology of the invincible. It was probably a bit of both.

[bluntblade]

The Wolves' FW entry does tell us that they undertook a lot of suppression actions.

[Marshal Rohr]

Did the book address the timeline discrepancies about the Dark Angels operating on their own as the only legion with the other legions existing before the Great Crusade began?

[Angel of Solitude]

I just finished reading this book, and I feel that my decision to purchase the special edition hardback rather than waiting for the eBook was fully justifed!
 
I'm finding it difficult to explain, but to me, this book felt like the first time we have seen the "real" pre-heresy Dark Angels. We see the Hexagrammaton structure in full technicolour; we understand more about the strong Terran legacy of the First legion and how it impacts their organisation; and we also see the Lion as the first son of the Emperor, instead of the Grand Knight of Caliban. The foundation is laid for the different circles of secrecy that we come to associate so much with 40k Dark Angels.
 
In a way, it was a frustrating book to read, because you feel that had they fleshed out all these details about the history of the first legion earlier, then the previous Dark Angels books would have been so much better. The Knightly orders of Caliban are what the Lion grew up with; the Hexagrammaton structure is something he inherited from the terrans - you feel that the tensions caused by integrating these structures would have been a far more interesting read than what we were given.
 
For example, Luther, Cypher, Zahariel, Nemiel and Corswain were all key figures from Caliban. How would they interact with the existing 6 Masters of the wings?
 
Also, I wonder how many other

weapons there might be in the secret Dreadwing weapon cache on the Invincible Reason that perhaps might have been helpful when they first came under daemonic attack. Perhaps Nemiel might still have lost his head, but instead objecting to the use of forbidden weapons rather than psykers.

 
After that, I'm hungry for more about this version of the Dark Angels - perhaps book 9 may satiate this desire! Edited March 9, 2020 by Angel of Solitude

[RedFurioso]

 For example, Luther, Cypher, Zahariel, Nemiel and Corswain were all key figures from Caliban. How would they interact with the existing 6 Masters of the wings?

But Redloss and Holguin were Calibanites too...

[Angel of Solitude]

...and that's my point. At some point, there were Terran Masters of the Dread and Deathwings. Now it could be that they innocently died in battle and were replaced by Caliban successors. But equally, there could be another story to this. As an example, one of the Luther vs the Lion aspects could very well be Luther wanting to preserve the old Caliban Knightly order ways and traditions, while the Lion wants to press ahead with the Terran Hexagrammaton structure. The narrative then turns into Luther becoming jealous at the 6 Wing Masters due to the higher regard that the Lion has for them.

 

Luther is then exiled to Caliban, where he recruits and trains new Dark Angels in the ways of the Knightly order, rather than the Hexagrammaton structure.

 

I don't know - I like the refined pre-heresy Dark Angels a lot, but feel it doesn't really fit with the existing story that has been told so far.

[Marshal Rohr]

The knight aesthetic and trapping could also very well have been a Terran inheritance turned up to 11 when they were reunited with the Primarch. The Imperial Fists knightly traditions were all Terran in origin and that aesthetic is as ingrained into the Fists as it is the Dark Angels

[rendingon1+]

Imperial fists have no knightly traditions or aestethic except for templar brethern. Which is a very small fraction of a legion. Headcanons aside. Edited March 10, 2020 by rendingon1+

[Dumah]

Is dueling not a Knightly tradition? I recall that, for some time, the Fists have practiced ritual dueling and then there's the Feast of Blades...

[rendingon1+]

Is dueling not a Knightly tradition? I recall that, for some time, the Fists have practiced ritual dueling and then there's the Feast of Blades...

Dueling is as old as humanity itself I guess, different periods, different cultures.

[DarkChaplain]

I believe Inwit simply was a tribal world, with clans like the Dorn rising to prominence. They brought a couple of Inwit's traditions with them, but Inwit really has never, in my experience, been depicted as remotely knightly.

 

The Feast of Blades did not occur until Dorn broke up the Imperial Fists Legion into Chapters, so I wouldn't in any way associate that with Legion traditions, let alone a knightly thing. It was a martial get together to ensure his sons would still get along down the line and be able to somewhat rely upon one another, instead of growing completely apart like many/most of the Ultramarines offspring did.

Not only that, but it was designed in such a way as to directly call back to the Iron Cage disaster and comes with some features that are extremely lacking in chivalry - poisoned blades, anyone?

[RedFurioso]

 

The Feast of Blades did not occur until Dorn broke up the Imperial Fists Legion into Chapters

Nope. The Blade Feasts were mentioned in HH-1 Betrayal (page 109) as Pre-Heresy thing.

[Marshal Rohr]

Veteran upgrade helmets, phalanx Warder shields, command upgrade mace, command upgrade tabard, John French’s descriptions of the Huscarls, and the old Index Astartes*

 

(PSA the Fists have always had a strong knight connection, specifically German given the actual use of Junker to describe their code of honor, further double down on by FW when describing Imperial Fists recruited from the Saxonii hive sprawl)

Edited March 11, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[Brother Lunkhead]

This is very interesting, but we are teetering on the edge of "OFF TOPIC", so don't fall off

[Brother Lunkhead]

=][=

 

Imperial Fists as a Knightly Order would make for an excellent topic, but NOT HERE.

 

=][=

[rendingon1+]

Why only my post was removed and Marshal's one stays (even if proven wrong)? Edited March 10, 2020 by rendingon1+

[Brother Lunkhead]

I t try not to be an extreme censor, but once I've issued a caution/warning I'd like everyone to take it to heart.

If anyone has any concerns or would like to discuss the matter (or any matter) don't hesitate to pm me.

Now I'm off topic

Edited March 11, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[DarkChaplain]

 

 

The Feast of Blades did not occur until Dorn broke up the Imperial Fists Legion into Chapters

Nope. The Blade Feasts were mentioned in HH-1 Betrayal (page 109) as Pre-Heresy thing.

 

 

That's another ForgeWorld Retcon, then, as it originally did not exist until the breaking of the Legion, as per the earliest sources (including Legion of the Damned).

[b1soul]

Perhaps the Feast of Blades in its current form was developed post-Heresy

 

During the GC, the proto-Blade Feasts may have been quite different?

[Kelborn]

And maybe the talk about Fists and their traditions (or not) could be continued elsewhere?

[rendingon1+]

I t try not to be an extreme censor, but once I've issued a caution/warning I'd like everyone to take it to heart.

 

If anyone has any concerns or would like to discuss the matter (or any matter) don't hesitate to pm me.

 

Now I'm off topic

I've sent you PM, what now?

[Kelborn]

Please bear in mind that it might take a while until he'll see or has the time to answer. From what I know, he'll answer asap to every PM he receives just like we all do, be assured.

 

We're living across the world, eh. :)

[DarkChaplain]

This made me chuckle a little. Reminded me of how my grandfather, who recently got a tablet, didn't understand that his buddy might not immediately read and reply to his emails the moment he sent one. "What now" was basically his reaction, and he ended up calling the guy to ask if he'd read it barely 10 minutes later.

 

Anyway, do Merir Astelan and/or Belath feature? We know Astelan was pretty high ranked and was one of the original Terran Legionaries. He also had... opinions. Would have expected/hoped for him to get at least a token mention or cameo in the novel. Any info on that?

[rendingon1+]

I'm asking because I see that my post that debunked Marshal Rohr's claims as false was deleted and is still misssing and his was only edited without removing it. Looks kind of unfair to me. If discussion is offtop why not remove all the offtop posts or leave them?

Oh and since mod in question LIKED Marshal's post and removed mine I call playing favorites.

Edited March 11, 2020 by rendingon1+