Discussion on the new C:SM & Possible BT supplement

[Medjugorje]

for the new buffs a chaplain Need to be on the table. Makes a difference.

 

 

How do you think about

 

Swordmaster Marshal with Teeth of Terra an Jumppack + Stormshield

Castellan with Jumppack and Bolter

 

3x 5 Intercessor Indomitus Veterans with Thunder Hammer

3x Impulsor with 4++

 

should about ~800 Points

[Acebaur]

i thought A Bikercaptain IS in the Supp

No that is Khan on a bike (technically he is a captain, but not a generic one)

[kombatwombat]

The Chaplain changes sting. Their powers no longer work the turn he arrives front Deep Strike or gets out of a transport, and the targeted buffs don’t work for units arriving from Deep Strike or getting out of a transport. He also now needs to roll a 3+ to get his basic reroll aura back, and only one of the new powers helps other units in melee, and even then it’s only a minor buff.

 

It’s a pretty savage nerf for how we prefer to use Chaplains. They’re now basically another type of witch for buffing shooting units. That said, give a Terminator Chappy a melee-focused Warlord Trait, the Crozius relic and his self-buff prayer and he turns into a bit of a beatstick.

[Acebaur]

The Chaplain changes sting. Their powers no longer work the turn he arrives front Deep Strike or gets out of a transport, and the targeted buffs don’t work for units arriving from Deep Strike or getting out of a transport. He also now needs to roll a 3+ to get his basic reroll aura back, and only one of the new powers helps other units in melee, and even then it’s only a minor buff.

 

It’s a pretty savage nerf for how we prefer to use Chaplains. They’re now basically another type of witch for buffing shooting units. That said, give a Terminator Chappy a melee-focused Warlord Trait, the Crozius relic and his self-buff prayer and he turns into a bit of a beatstick.

I don't consider it a nerf at all. Yes there are limitations but before now chaplains were all but redundant. Helbrecht granted the same benefits and much more. Marshal's had a buff that was nearly as good. Chaplains were mediocre melee characters with an very focused buff that only benefited a couple of units in the entire army.

 

Now they have multiple ways to buff every unit and also be better in CC themselves. They are no longer redundant with a captain

[redmapa]

Worst case scenario give them a Power Fist and a Jump Pack, then go to town with them as they gain +1A/S/dmg. Budget Smash Caps.

[Medjugorje]

And maybe there are relics that make These even better to cast (automatically or reroll)

[kombatwombat]

Chaplains were a cost-effective and mobile means of significantly upping the effectiveness of dedicated combat units. The deep strike thing is really what makes a difference - Helbrecht can’t keep up with deep striking Terminators or Vanguard, and those are units that badly need the rerolls to make the most of their relatively low volume of high-quality attacks. Chaplains also allowed you to spread the buff across the board, instead of Helbrecht being the focus of the entire army.

 

Now they’re becoming redundant with Librarians - they provide non-guaranteed shooting-focused buffs to units starting the turn on the board, which is exactly the MO of witches.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

If Chaplains and Dark Aps get updated in an FAQ to allow you to roll for buffs while they aren't on the table, they'll become the most useful unit to add to our lists. As it stands they aren't awful, but they do require a bit of extra maneuvering that is more annoying than tactically interesting. 

[kombatwombat]

Simpler IMO would be to roll for Chaplain powers at the start of the Shooting Phase - exactly how Guard Orders work. It lets them work for units out of deep strike and transports. As it is though I agree, there’s nothing tactically interesting about how it works, just cumbersome.

[Marshal Reinhard]

oh no, I don't believe for a second we'd get swordbrothers now. I'm hoping for an upgrade sprue and a character. That's within realism.

 

I'm hoping for a swordbrothers eventually

[Ciler]

I'll join the ranks of the sceptics and say I doubt we'd get a dedicated primaris SB kit. I think it more likely that at some stage there will be a primaris CC unit (other than reivers), but the kit shan't be BT-specific.

[Medjugorje]

I bet against it^^

 

I think we wont get a primaris character or any new unit. I bet we get a bonus in assault doctrin. I bet we get minimum 1 relic (up to 6) and 2 Stratagems (up to 6), a new WL-Trait AND A SPRUE '(but just a small one like all others too)

 

I bet our characters stays the same except Grimaldus - he will get a bonus for chaplain powers.

[Lippy]

Yeah... I can't see a primaris black templar sword bro's kits being released in any shape, but it would be awesome to watch the wailing from the rest of the community!

 

I don't even expect a primaris upgrade sprue nor a 'Primaldus' but I'm going to hold of on purchases anyway until we know what's coming.

 

As for the rules, relics and traits - we've still not heard either way if we're in a Sons of Dorn supplement or on our own have we?

The only thing we have to go by is the image with the 6 supplements? However I watched a video where they said 'there's going to be 8 supplements and that means BT and CF as well as the first founding chapters'... but then review videos have been known to misinterpret things..

[Sete]

At bare minimum im expecting a Primaris char and sprue. Bare minimum.

Cmon WS are not popular in 40k and they got both.

Sword Bros I agree, eventually.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Chaplains were a cost-effective and mobile means of significantly upping the effectiveness of dedicated combat units. The deep strike thing is really what makes a difference - Helbrecht can’t keep up with deep striking Terminators or Vanguard, and those are units that badly need the rerolls to make the most of their relatively low volume of high-quality attacks. Chaplains also allowed you to spread the buff across the board, instead of Helbrecht being the focus of the entire army.

 

Now they’re becoming redundant with Librarians - they provide non-guaranteed shooting-focused buffs to units starting the turn on the board, which is exactly the MO of witches.

I haven't taken Chaplains in ages, now I will. They've become much more adaptable with these updates.

I didn't need to take Chaplains because Marshals with the Chapter Master upgrade did exactly the same buff, plus buffing shooting, whilst also being better in combat. Your deep strike argument also falls away then. (And even now taking Helbrecht in a pod is reasonably viable again.)

 

This is not a nerf.

[kombatwombat]

No matter which way you cut it, you can only have one Templars Chapter Master in your army, and Helbrecht is counted in that.

 

Need that reroll buff at both your anvil and your deep-striking hammer?

 

Before: Take a Chaplain

Now: :cuss outta luck, kid.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

No, you can take both. That's the rules.

[Marshal Vespasian]

Take a jumping chappy for that charge buffe and put one into your deepstriking/Transport using Element for combat buffs.

[Sete]

I assume this weekend we will have some more Supplements to be released.

I don't think the Impulsor will go for pre order with the sons of dorn, maybe with some other chapter with less kits to be released.

I still believe that the IF supplement will have BT with CF, with their respective section, and again I do think we will be last, due to potential amount of kits.

[Acebaur]

Chaplains were a cost-effective and mobile means of significantly upping the effectiveness of dedicated combat units. The deep strike thing is really what makes a difference - Helbrecht can’t keep up with deep striking Terminators or Vanguard, and those are units that badly need the rerolls to make the most of their relatively low volume of high-quality attacks. Chaplains also allowed you to spread the buff across the board, instead of Helbrecht being the focus of the entire army.

 

Now they’re becoming redundant with Librarians - they provide non-guaranteed shooting-focused buffs to units starting the turn on the board, which is exactly the MO of witches.

Only 2 of the 7 litanies are shooting focused. So you are wrong that that is all they do.

 

There are benefits to having it roll at the start of the battle round, like the melee buffs for example will apply to you units during your opponents turn.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I think we might get our own litanies for two reasons: First we have a very different religious approach to the other chapters, and second, one of the litanies is completely redundant for us as it's part of our CT.

[kombatwombat]

No, you can take both. That's the rules.

No, you can not. Read the Codex mate - the Chapter Master Stratagem explicitly states that you can not have more than one Chapter Master from the same Chapter in your army. Helbrecht has the Chapter Master and Black Templars keywords, so you can’t take both Helbrecht and use the Chapter Master Stratagem on another Black Templar.

 

Now, new Codex so that wording might change, but I’ll eat my hat - actually I’ll have to go buy a hat and then eat it - if that restriction goes away. After all, barring Warp shenanigans, having two Chapter Masters from the same Chapter on the same battlefield at the same time doesn’t quite work.

 

Take a jumping chappy for that charge buffe and put one into your deepstriking/Transport using Element for combat buffs.

Yeah I’ve been considering that one. But that’s not an interesting tactical challenge, that’s going out of your way to get around a cumbersome rule.

[Sete]

@Adelard:

I do hope we have something, battle chants of some sort would be nice.

[AlmightyWalrus]

6" consolidation is quite a major deal as it limits how well chaff can screen units behind them. Chaplains are going to be fine.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

No, you can take both. That's the rules.

No, you can not. Read the Codex mate - the Chapter Master Stratagem explicitly states that you can not have more than one Chapter Master from the same Chapter in your army. Helbrecht has the Chapter Master and Black Templars keywords, so you can’t take both Helbrecht and use the Chapter Master Stratagem on another Black Templar.

 

Now, new Codex so that wording might change, but I’ll eat my hat - actually I’ll have to go buy a hat and then eat it - if that restriction goes away. After all, barring Warp shenanigans, having two Chapter Masters from the same Chapter on the same battlefield at the same time doesn’t quite work.

 

Take a jumping chappy for that charge buffe and put one into your deepstriking/Transport using Element for combat buffs.

Yeah I’ve been considering that one. But that’s not an interesting tactical challenge, that’s going out of your way to get around a cumbersome rule.

 

 

I stand corrected, thank you.

 

Anyway, I would rather take a generic Chapter Master over Helbrecht anyway. Helbrecht's strength buff isn't as useful as the ability to take a better WL than Oathkeeper (i.e. any of them, particularly Sword Master), the ability to deepstrike and take a relic.