Discussion on the new C:SM & Possible BT supplement

[Sete]

With this delay, I believe that we have a good chance of getting a supplement.

Dont forget we have never received a number of supplements being released, nor do I think it was confirmed it would be just first founding.

 

If it were to happen we could easily lock a week release window with 3 chars, supplement, dice, cards and sprue.

 

Ofc this is in a perfect timeline where GW does give a hoot about BT.

 

We will probably get a second ultramarine supplement and primaris sicarius :D

Edited August 12, 2019 by Sete

[kombatwombat]

It’s just too convenient that the number of supplements in the pictures matches the number of FF chapters in the Codex. It smacks of an image they’ve done up for advertising once they’ve released them all, that they’ve doctored the names out of.

[Sete]

Yeah theres that.

That's the main evidence that supports we are in the IF supplement.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Sete

[kombatwombat]

Trust me Sete, I want to believe, I truly do.

 

But even without the once bitten, twice shy effect, logic says we’ll be in the Fists one in the same way we were for the Angels of Death supplement.

[Acebaur]

Here is what I think we all can expect bare minimum. 

 

- In IF supplement

- Our 4 unique units we have now

- Warlord Trait table

- One Relic

- A strategem

 

 

We will probably get the following based on the WS book

 

- More than one relic

- A special rule that goes along with combat doctrines

- More than one Strategem 

 

There is a chance we may get some of this 

 

- Our own supplement

- A full spread of strategems

- 3+ relics

- Special Issue wargear (or have access to the IF one)

- Something to substitute the Psyker Heresy with

- A Primaris character

 

 

Expecting multiple special rules is only setting yourself up for disappointment since the other supplements don't get that. But one is certainly likely and will likely be to do with the assault phase. 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

To be fair, the best way to make money is to sell more books, so perhaps a separate supplement is the business way to go?

[Acebaur]

To be fair, the best way to make money is to sell more books, so perhaps a separate supplement is the business way to go?

Maybe, but it depends on whether GW thinks they can be profitable making a whole book. I just wouldn't count on it.

[Medjugorje]

We'll likely get our special characters and some version of the crusader squad back but should we expect to get anything else tho ? We have a new extended chapter trait, did ultramarines and white scars get more than that ?

thats ironic isnt it?

 

 

YES!!! they received soooo much. WS get +1dmg in assault phase for each attack in melee.. and Ultramarines get a bunch of extrarules in the tactical doctrin. So I hope we get anything close to it...

 

 

Warlord traits, relics and librarius disciplines. Plus other data sheets. (I hope we get a new Chapter WL trait, Oathkeeper sucks.)

 

Did the Vigilus UM detachment find its way into the new book?

 

I dont know... I think not. So maybe our Vigilus Detachment stays the same... And YES, Oathkeeper sucks so much - i thought GW would replace that - nobody choose that.

 

 

Given that we’re in the Fists supplement, my best guess:

 

-80% chance we get the same level of treatment as we got in Angels of Death - a token effort that doesn’t help us at all.

-10% chance we get just datasheets for our unique units, and our existing relics/stratagems/warlord traits ported over, with special characters still locked to the awful one from the last codex

-10% chance we get fair treatment and get something close to what the other chapters get

 

Also, I would give my right arm to have a unique Librarius replaced with Vows for us...

 

hmmm - now when u told so.... It could be that i am so hyped now that I dont see that nothing has changed yet? 

 

To be honest... We have still a :cussty WL-Trait and in comparison to the other chapters our CT is not that good. In addition other CT improved not that tiny bit as ours. 5+++ against MW are cool but nothing like a shiny gimmik. And charge rerolls are just a bit better then before. We dont know anything about our characters - maybe GW dont change them anyways... Helbrecht and EC dont need that but Grimaldus rules are just annoying at the moment.

And that just the ultramarines can change the combat doctrine is ....

I dont know how GW can work the doctrines into a chapter that doesnt fallow the codex

 

 

 

So far, what we can see from the Codex and the two supplements point out to GW really trying to pull Marines back to where they belong and trying to give flavour to the chapters. I understand the "once bitten, twice shy" way of thinking, but it would make no sense if we were left in the dust out of spite. I, for one, have faith.

 

 

If they tried it before - they achieve that in 6th edtion and 7th edition by many other chapters... but not with BT.

 

 

Here is what I think we all can expect bare minimum. 

 

- In IF supplement

- Our 4 unique units we have now

- Warlord Trait table

- One Relic

- A strategem

 

 

We will probably get the following based on the WS book

 

- More than one relic

- A special rule that goes along with combat doctrines

- More than one Strategem 

 

There is a chance we may get some of this 

 

- Our own supplement

- A full spread of strategems

- 3+ relics

- Special Issue wargear (or have access to the IF one)

- Something to substitute the Psyker Heresy with

- A Primaris character

 

 

Expecting multiple special rules is only setting yourself up for disappointment since the other supplements don't get that. But one is certainly likely and will likely be to do with the assault phase. 

 

I stay with you.  This is what i mean.... If we get just the minimum I would be very disappointed.

 

 

To be fair, the best way to make money is to sell more books, so perhaps a separate supplement is the business way to go?

like Acebaur said - In one hand I expect that a company know her costumers,... on the onther hand I think they misunderstood / interpreted the Horus Heresy wrong. They learned that the people love the HH. So they thought their fans like the FF chapters more then others But in reality because there were so much hints into the 40k universe...

 

After HH was so successful they decided to focus more on the first founding chapters... and it is always like it is. After a long time nobody starts a Black Templar army because others getting more support and after a while a lot of "old" fans stop participate and our community gets smaller and smaller - just because of the wrong concolusions were made a long time ago. 

 

Here is what I think we all can expect bare minimum. 

 

- In IF supplement

- Our 4 unique units we have now

- Warlord Trait table

- One Relic

- A strategem

 

 

We will probably get the following based on the WS book

 

- More than one relic

- A special rule that goes along with combat doctrines

- More than one Strategem 

 

There is a chance we may get some of this 

 

- Our own supplement

- A full spread of strategems

- 3+ relics

- Special Issue wargear (or have access to the IF one)

- Something to substitute the Psyker Heresy with

- A Primaris character

 

 

Expecting multiple special rules is only setting yourself up for disappointment since the other supplements don't get that. But one is certainly likely and will likely be to do with the assault phase. 

 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Medjugorje

[Acebaur]

I wouldn't say they got so much. They got a set of Warlord traits, a set of relics and special issue wargear, a witch discipline, a good sized set of strats and one special rule that only works during a certain doctrine.

 

Granted there were a lot of strats but you can only use so many in a game.

[Marshal van Trapp]

I think CF and BT will be supplements, why would them make new supplements for BA, DA, and SW if they're just planning to put out FAQs with the new datasheets and point changes for them, grey knights, and deathwatch?

[AlmightyWalrus]

Since both UM and WS got their own psychic disciplines, couldn't we be getting our own litanies for Chaplains seeing as we don't have Librarians? Make our Chaplains the gimmick of the book, as it were.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

It also makes sense as one of the standard litanies is part of our chapter tactic!

[Schlitzaf]

So apparently according to someone in news that chapter UU are getting a gapstop faq index datasheet thing. Also, just to ask this given Khan on Bike Datasheet. What are the chances of us getting new datasheets of Units already in production?

1) Sword Brothern

-Especially if Vigilus pseudo replaced

 

Outright New Kits

1) Primaris Character (my gut says EChampion)

2) New Sprue*

 

 

The other option to be said is, Biker Crusader Squads. You create it the same way we make our Crusader Squads; Scout + Tactical Kit using upgrade kit.

 

*I am actually starting to believe we won’t given. Price point is $25 dollars and as such directly competes with current kit.

[Marshal Vespasian]

If they give me some two-handed Power weapons I'll gladly shell out for an upgrade sprue

 

 

I hope the stopgap PDF just fives everything the proper keywords and is good to go then.

 

Obviously I want an upgrade kit. But if they continue to be a bunch of pauldrons plus a weapon or two they are not really Worth it in a World were shapeways, spellcrow and kromlech exist.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Marshal Vespasian

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Just comparing the current sprue with the latest one for the WS, you get 9 shoulder pads per sprue on the WS one, three of which are for Gravis.

 

Meanwhile, you get 15 on the current BT sprue, including 5 for terminators, which also fit on Gravis.

 

Plus all the other gubbins.

[Sete]

++Until a source is cited, this is just wishlisting/speculation++

 

 

Neophytes are becoming an upgrade without their own stats; any BT squad can take one for every two members in older power armor or tacticus (not allowed in terminator squads, phobos-based units, gravis-based units) and any HQ character can take up to two. You can pass off wounds to them on a 2+ and then they can try for a 5+ ignore. They're how the design studio is also adding mortal wounds to a no-psyker list. Each neophyte with a "bolter" gets to roll a d6 during the shooting phase against a unit within 24" and it causes a mortal wound on a 6. Each neophyte with a "bolt pistol and close combat weapon" gets to do the same but it is a 12" range. Any neophyte within 1" of an enemy unit must target that enemy unit and if they have the "bolt pistol and close combat weapon" get to re-roll the die.

 

Helbrecht is getting killed off in fluff and various BT fleets are heading to Terra to officially swear in his replacement (so no rules or model) and this fluff thread will move forward during the SoB release and the third Indomitus/Guilliman book

after he's read the Lectitio Divinatus

. Chaplain Grimaldus is crossing the Rubicon Primaris and will get a new miniature along with not-Primaris but still larger (think new Chaos Marines) Emperor's Champion model.

I'm curious to know your opinion about this to be honest.

It's almost certainly false, but personally I would not like Helbrecth killed.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I could face losing Helbrecht more than Grimaldus.

I never thought Helbrecht was as well developed as a character, the story of how he lost his arm to the Necrons is truly dire, he often comes across as petulant in the fluff, and at one point very arrogant. When he admits that he lied to Yarrick about the size of the crusades under his command at Armageddon to boost his claim to fleet command. (Ostensibly to get the job he thought he was best suited for, which he may have been.) He's also become rather obsessed with Ghaz.

 

However, his model is an arse to paint, so I would be glad to see it replaced for that reason!

[balordazul]

I would be fine with Helbrecht being lost but only with a DG level reboot of the army getting in new themed units and characters.  

 

We have see years of rumors that have been false but hey I was a Tomb Kings player and I never thought they were going to kill off my army or end that game so what do I know.  

I also want to point out that Helbrecht has been in the vast majority of my BT lists from the point of getting folded into the SM codex as a point of BT pride.

Edited August 12, 2019 by balordazul

[Mmmmm Napalm]

Personally I'd rather see Grim being upscaled than Helbrecht. Part of this is because I can see a potential Primaris Grim transitioning to Primaris scale without much loss to his armor aesthetic. He would absolutely have a helmet (it's unfortunate that Khan and the Ironfather don't, I really liked that wave 1 HQ's and Calgar all had helmet options). His helmet, Crozius, and pistol would likely remain the same due to them being relics, and Grimaldus a Reclusiarch.

 

You've got the whole "endurance and refusing to die" schtick he's got, which fits the Rubicon.

 

Finally, Helbrecht has always struck me as a strategist, particularly when it comes to void warfare. Grim fits as a Frontline combatant more.

 

Unfortunately, I can also see Grim not being updated because of the presence of his cenobyte servitors. Sure they're a separate datasheet now, but I can see GW excluding Grimaldus because of them.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Mmmmm Napalm

[Acebaur]

I could face losing Helbrecht more than Grimaldus.

I never thought Helbrecht was as well developed as a character, the story of how he lost his arm to the Necrons is truly dire, he often comes across as petulant in the fluff, and at one point very arrogant. When he admits that he lied to Yarrick about the size of the crusades under his command at Armageddon to boost his claim to fleet command. (Ostensibly to get the job he thought he was best suited for, which he may have been.) He's also become rather obsessed with Ghaz.

 

However, his model is an arse to paint, so I would be glad to see it replaced for that reason!

 

 

He didn't lie per say, because the number he told to Yarrick was going to be present on Armageddon they just hadn't arrived yet. 

 

But I do agree that Grimaldus is a better candidate for a Primaris mini because of the whole "nothing can kill him" sort of theme he's always had. 

 

That said, Helbrecht is no stranger to brutal CC. He wears gold armor not out of any desire for being ostentatious, but because when he pulled steel, he wanted to be seen. (by the enemy) 

[Marshal Rohr]

There is no way to make helbrecht half as characterful in Tacticus armor as he is now in his 4th Edition artificer armor. You just end up with the Calgar treatment, where he has some Tacticus armor and a cape with easy to paint symbols on it. Grimaldus could be cool if they give him his tabard/chains and we can go behind them and add rivets to the shoulders and and shins ourselves. None of the rubicon characters have a modicum of the soul or character as their relic armors did though, so I’m pretty apprehensive about the transition. Edited August 13, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Marshal Arthur]

I agree that Grimaldus is the most likely to cross the Rubicon and actually fits his character arc to an extent. That said I find Helbrecht fascinating. He has several victories but unlike Calgar has actually lost battles. He doesn’t come off as petulant to me but as someone deeply troubled by his duty who is far too hard on himself (in true Dorn fashion). But mostly I’d find his death insulting unless they killed off other characters from chapters with more special characters first.

[Marshal Rohr]

Helbrecht will always be awesome for his introductory bit of lore about the assault on the space hulk way back in Armageddon days.

[Marshal Vespasian]

I honestly could live with Helbrecht biting the dust. He feels more like a background character to me in contrast to grimaldus who had character development and is the star of his book.

 

But that being said I am fairly sure that that post ist blatant wishlisting done by a Fan.

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

I'm curious to know your opinion about this to be honest.

 

 

Patently false. Absurd even.

 

Initiates hiding behind neophytes like scared children? Yeah, I realize that in GAMEPLAY, neophytes have in fact been used as meat shields (it comes naturally given that neophytes are less valuable so as a player, you're inclined to kill off the neophytes first), but to see that enshrined in rules? Preposterous. 

 

The same neophytes are now capable of dishing out mortal wounds too? Please.

 

It's twice trashed before we even get to the Helbrecht part. That part has nothing stupid in it, right? Lectitio Divinatus. Get out.