What are you looking forward to most in the RG supplement?

[SkimaskMohawk]

But it's not really like it takes more thought to leverage their tactic. You need to hope they take character dependant/heavy lists to even have a doctrine boost.

 

The other ones reinforce a play style; this one...doesn't. And for a doctrine boost, that's why it feels much worse.

[thewarriorhunter]

Between here and talking to a friend I'm like _Duz and warming up to our rules. I think playing RG well will require finesse and strategery. It's not in your face like a lot of the other Chapters where their rules just happen.

 

I like the idea of having to play better, not just getting buffs and saying 'gotcha!'.

[duz_]

Decapitation strikes definitely sound like the Raven Guard MO to me?

It's not as obviously powerful as the UM or IH one but doesn't mean it's not effective.

 

Seeing as characters play a key part in buffing units in this edition they're fairly common and often linchpins in many army builds. At the very least it'll cause players to be more Conservative with their charterers

[Bluflash]

I'm seeing similar "trash tier" comments, and I'll just agree RG are going to play way more tactically than a cursory glance shows.

I'm definitely coming around to 2+ to hit 2+ to wound Las cannons against knights, and I'll be shocked it we don't have some way to let our other units target characters.

Being able to consistently kill Smash caps with 2-3 units of eliminators is great, and they can put a serious dent in a knight (especially after dumping other effective fire into it).

 

I'm also liking a Captain (Bike, Gravis, Jetpack) with the Chapter Master trait being flung up the board T1 to give rerolls to aggressively deployed Invictors, and be in good position for a T2 charge. Depending on relics, you could use the WL trait and Jetpack for a  chancy T1 SmashCap/Murderwings.

 

Not what i was expecting, but with good play I think it will work better than the internet is suggesting.

 

[Dracos]

Any thoughts on what the Raven Guard Panoply is ?

[thewarriorhunter]

Where is that from?

[Dracos]

Scroll down on the Warhammer community page for the Raven guard where it says contents. It starts on page 40 and it looks like it goes to page 51. I can’t tell if it’s just history or if there might be rules for two special units involved there

[thewarriorhunter]

hrm... panapoly could go either way based on it's definition...

 

and I guess after my redemptor/proxy invictus warsuit is done I'm getting to my reivers and eliminators.

[Closet Skeleton]

Raven Guard are far from trash tier, their doctrine bonus is pretty even with the White Scars one since they only have to wait for turn 2. Being able to smash character knights and pick out farseers is actually more tournament useful than the little extra mobility Ultramarines and Iron Hands get.

[L30n1d4s]

I think people are underestimating Raven Guard... not only does almost every major faction rely heavily on Characters to be competitive (which RG Scout Snipers, Eliminators, Phobos Captains, and Stalker Bolt Rifle Captains can reliably kill now with free +1 to hit/+1 to wound), but Surgical Strikes also impacts melee, meaning that RG close combat units are going to simply murder characters in close combat and even "lackluster" units like Assault Marines are going to be quite capable of "one-shotting" tough enemy characters (i.e 10 bare bones RG Assault Marines, with a nearby RG Captain, charging an enemy Smash Captain put out 31 attacks, 30-31 hits, 20 wounds, and 6-7 unsaved wounds, enough to kill him).

 

Finally, RG Aggressors with Chaplain and Captain support are going to be the Truth against character Knights... 108 S4 AP -1 shots, 100 hits with normal rolling, 50 wounds on average, and 25 damage inflicted!!

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

 

We could have a phobos captain, give him a master crafted weapon special issue wargear (assuming we get it), the marksman's honours warlord trait allowing him to do 5 dmg a shot with his rifle. That might pair well with the doctrine and a chaplain for +1 to hit and +2 to wound. (lol whatever.... too many moving parts and most characters worth sniping have an invuln save)

Assuming that the SIW is the same for RG (very likely) they've already plugged that gap with UM/WS: a Master-crafted weapon becomes a Relic, so it can't benefit from Marksman's Honours Warlord Trait. Unfortunately

That's so weird. I read your post and I was like "No, it doesn't do that, I swear". Then I went to the Codex, and sure enough, it reads exactly as you wrote. I started losing my mind trying to think where I read a different version, so I loaded up battlescribe. This is what battlescribe lists for Marksman's Honor:

 

"The Damage characteristic of ranged weapons your warlord is armed with is increased by 1. In addition, you can re-roll failed to hi rolls and wound rolls for shooting attacks made by your warlord. This Warlord trait does not aply to Grenade weapons, but does apply to Chapter Relics."

 

Like, what? Those two rules couldn't be further from each other.

 

 

 

Idea for Shadowstep:

• Start of battle round, Chaplain uses Canticle of Hate (+2" to charges for units within 6")
• Deep strike melee stuff
• Shadowstep Chaplain over to buff them
• ???
• Profit

Cheeky bonus: if the Litany fails, hold off the deep strikers for a turn and try again.

Take out the middleman and Shadowstep a Chaplain Dread with the Imperium's Sword Warlord trait.

 

The power does not specify that it has to be an infantry character.

Oh, that's a beautiful idea! Love it!

Don't forget Shrike's re-roll to charge on Jump Infantry is likely to stay as one of his rules, and if it does, you can combo the Shadow-stepped chaplain into multiple units of 7" Charging Jump Infantry units. Not sure thats exactly "top tier" viable, but certainly very fluffy and fun.

 

Napkin math says a re-rollable 7" charge is 82.6% success chance.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Scout snipers are pretty much the only unit that generates enough damage to kill a sub 9 wound character on average. Not counting stratagemd stalkers. All the rest simply don't generate enough shots meaning an invul changes the math sharply. The other problem is that you're waiting until turn 2 for this very specific advantage. And games are often decided on the first turn, especially with the big characters.

 

But what this is telling me, is that there's going to be a heavy emphasis on combos similar to the white scars, who's doctrine is more like the icing on top.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

And yeah, Shadowstep is actually pretty damned awesome.

The RG Facebook group I'm in is calling it hot garbage.

 

I have realized they are idiots.

 

They don't want to think strategically. They just want to be handed an I Win button.

 

Im definately in the "hot garbage" camp on this issue but since we do not know 95% of the stuff we are getting, I'm not willing to give up on it.  

 

Most of the uses for this power have too many moving parts(points of failure).  Compared to the IH psychic power which has 1 failure point (Warp Charge 5), shadowstep is really bad.

[Exilyth]

What I'm looking forward to in the codex supplement is anything that will make the chapter tactic not be completely irrelevant vs. units/weapons/strats which ignore cover.

 

I'm fine with RG being made into more of a finesse army, but what has been shown so far feels rather lackluster - hopefully the parts we haven't seen yet will be worth it.

 

 

edit: Ironically we'll be able to reliably remove Gulliman (and other primarchs) from the table.

[Sea-People]

White scars looked somewhat lackluster until we saw their named character and full list of stratagems.

 

I have a feeling that Raven Guard will be in the same boat. Really good stratagems, very average doctrine.

 

All this talk of Raven Guard being "the genestealer cults of space marines" has to be going somewhere, right?

[Dracos]

I really like the vibe I’m feeling so far but yeah, Shadowstep @ a “6” would feel a whole lot better.

[Ishagu]

 

 

 

And yeah, Shadowstep is actually pretty damned awesome.

The RG Facebook group I'm in is calling it hot garbage.

 

I have realized they are idiots.

 

They don't want to think strategically. They just want to be handed an I Win button.

Im definately in the "hot garbage" camp on this issue but since we do not know 95% of the stuff we are getting, I'm not willing to give up on it.

 

Most of the uses for this power have too many moving parts(points of failure). Compared to the IH psychic power which has 1 failure point (Warp Charge 5), shadowstep is really bad.

Knights are the worst match up for Astartes. Pretty much every Knight is a character - RG hit and wound them much more easily. Same with big Daemons and regular HQs that can be sniped. There is definitely some play here.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

 

 

And yeah, Shadowstep is actually pretty damned awesome.

The RG Facebook group I'm in is calling it hot garbage.

 

I have realized they are idiots.

 

They don't want to think strategically. They just want to be handed an I Win button.

Im definately in the "hot garbage" camp on this issue but since we do not know 95% of the stuff we are getting, I'm not willing to give up on it.

 

Most of the uses for this power have too many moving parts(points of failure). Compared to the IH psychic power which has 1 failure point (Warp Charge 5), shadowstep is really bad.

Knights are the worst match up for Astartes. Pretty much every Knight is a character - RG hit and wound them much more easily. Same with big Daemons and regular HQs that can be sniped. There is definitely some play here.

 

I was referring to Shadowstep not Surgical Strikes which I think is decent(after some thought).

[SkimaskMohawk]

Surgical Strikes is just very hard to get excited about.

 

The biggest reason is that there's no list archetype you really make around it. Scions supports a troop supported battle-clump, Fury supports independent heavy weapon saturation, Devastating Charge supports a melee oriented list. What does Surgical Strikes support? Sniper weapons? Anti-tank that can kill big characters? Those aren't anywhere as broad as the other list-types. You also only get it against certain targets, and often give up better armour piercing abilities to do so.

 

It sucks that I see people here saying they'll just need to play better to use raven guard well, because that shouldn't be a requirement. One sub faction shouldn't need a much tighter game plan and an opportune opponent to be on the same level. And, it's not like surgical strikes is actually rewarding of good tactics and strategy. It's stifling in its narrowness compared to the others opening more strategic and tactical doors.

[Dracos]

I would disagree. Especially given we only have 5% of the overall stratagems and other abilities sneak peeked. Being the premiere character killing Chapter is a big debuff against almost every army these days. Some live and die with their characters but every army will be hamstrung if you've crippled their character support in the first couple turns. I dare characters to get within 30" of a unit of Intercessors T2. To Hit, To Wound, and -2 AP laughs at ++ Saves with an incredible amount of firepower. +1 to hit and +1 to would means even Reivers are going to shred non-power armored characters. Let alone what Inceptors are going to go.

 

Its just my opinion and we do have much yet to be revealed, but it feels like a Good Raven Guard player is going to be rewarded with greater benefits than the Point n' Click Chapters. To hit reroll abilities are a dime a dozen. Actual pluses to hit and wound not as much.

[Bluflash]

Being a high skill army ≠ requiring opponent misplays.

 

It does mean you have the tools available to set up and exploit said misplays for maximum leverage. It's a subtle power, and like deployment shenanigans, doesn't win by outright force but instead targeted pressure and head games.

 

If there's nothing else of value in the entire Dex, then yeah, this isn't good value, but we still have yet to see almost all of the new stuff.

[Lucerne]

I for one welcome Codex: Alpha Legion :p

[duz_]

:ermm: Where'd the Chaplain go...

 

Race might know where the crozius is...

[Closet Skeleton]

It sucks that I see people here saying they'll just need to play better to use raven guard well, because that shouldn't be a requirement. One sub faction shouldn't need a much tighter game plan and an opportune opponent to be on the same level.

 

Why not? Chapter Tactics shouldn't be under powered but theme comes first.

 

Max eliminators is under 200 points and a smash captain is another 150 odd, it doesn't require a focused list build just a willingness to broaden your tool kit.

 

 

Being a high skill army ≠ requiring opponent misplays.

 

Exactly, it means you're forcing your opponent to make trade offs.

[Panzer]

It's not like taking snipers and shooting at characters requires a particularly high level of skill. Taking out key elements to weaken the surrounding forces instead of bruteforcing through whatever is coming their way like the Iron Hands do is just a different approach to winning the battle/a game and very fitting for Raven Guard.

 

The movement shenanigans may need some getting used to, but ultimately those are rather straight forward too. Anybody can use the Canticles of Hate on a Chaplain and then put him near a unit you just deep striked via Shadowstep for example.