Dracos Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 I've been seeing a common trend from the more reasonable iron hands players that they accept the changes except for the 5++ for Feirros. That keeps cropping up. Seemingly for narrative and gameplay reasons. As mentioned....his focus is on vehicles, now he's split between something that boosts infantry and abilities that help vehicles. Weird. You thinkthats weird, try and make sense of the Phobos Lts and the Raven Guard relics Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359050-iron-hands-nerf/page/14/#findComment-5410412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcoon Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 Spent the entire weekend playtesting against my brother who is now an IH player. I own three ITC list armies from Orks, Adeptus Custodes and Imperial Guard, and we subbed in random units to represent anything he didn't have for the IH lists. I played against three different IH lists post-nerf using each of my armies to gauge how IH's will perform against different threats. The three main lists for IH were largely similar with the main changes being 3 executionors, or 3 leviathan dreadnoughts, or three stormhawk interceptors. After 20 hours of games, we concluded the executioner list is "balanced". I mostly lost to it but it was always exceedingly close, or based on objective draw and mission types. The leviathan list is immensely painful for any infantry based army, whether it's AA or not. I succeeded at only ever removing a single leviathan each game because my god, those things annihilate anything they aim at with the IH buffs, and they're just flat out impossible to kill. The Stormhawk list is OBSCENE. The -2 to hit was the stuff of nightmares, paired with the IH buffs it was an absolute slaughter against any army I threw against it. Even Orks with tractor canons didn't have the lucky RNG to deal with them since they're just so difficult to kill even after you hit and wound the damn things. It was also terrifyingly hard to "play the objectives", and seeing an army more durable than my own Custodes was the stuff of nightmare. We both agreed that the leviathan list and the stormhawk list won by turn 2 and from there it was just "win more" for the IH. Needless to say he's pleased but he is flat out refusing to buy any more of these models since he's majorly concerned they're going to get nerfed again, and Leviathan's aren't cheap. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359050-iron-hands-nerf/page/14/#findComment-5411071 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tychobi Posted October 20, 2019 Author Share Posted October 20, 2019 I fear worse than more nerfs. Imperial Fists rumors smell of serious power creep attached to their doctrine shenanigans. If the release power ramp up follows at the same pace Iron Hand cheese will be irrelevant in 3 months. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359050-iron-hands-nerf/page/14/#findComment-5411155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 I fear worse than more nerfs. Imperial Fists rumors smell of serious power creep attached to their doctrine shenanigans. If the release power ramp up follows at the same pace Iron Hand cheese will be irrelevant in 3 months. The Imperial Fists book is actually looking to be the weakest of the supplements. Salamanders sound like they're going to be strong, but probably have to be a bit more tricksy than the Iron Hands. I think the power creep concern isn't valid, for the last two supplements anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359050-iron-hands-nerf/page/14/#findComment-5411173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 I fear worse than more nerfs. Imperial Fists rumors smell of serious power creep attached to their doctrine shenanigans. If the release power ramp up follows at the same pace Iron Hand cheese will be irrelevant in 3 months. The Imperial Fists book is actually looking to be the weakest of the supplements. Salamanders sound like they're going to be strong, but probably have to be a bit more tricksy than the Iron Hands. I think the power creep concern isn't valid, for the last two supplements anyway. You really think so? I think they are one of the strongest. Lots of thematic rules which aren't great but there are a few insane combinations. We'll see them getting talked about soon I'm sure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359050-iron-hands-nerf/page/14/#findComment-5411176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 You really think so? I think they are one of the strongest. Lots of thematic rules which aren't great but there are a few insane combinations. We'll see them getting talked about soon I'm sure. The Siegebreaker Cohort packs in more straight up power than the supplement itself does. They're not bad, but I think they're the weakest supplement. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359050-iron-hands-nerf/page/14/#findComment-5411184 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 I think we'll have to wait and see. They have specific builds that might be overwhelming with certain units but I agree that their abilities don't benefit them in the broad sense like IH. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359050-iron-hands-nerf/page/14/#findComment-5411186 Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x19 Parabellum Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 I think the Feirros change is good. Iron Hands shouldn't simply be tough vehicles, they should also be tough infantry. The changes bring the focus back around to the actual Astartes and not just an army of hover tanks and flyers. 5++ doesn't really do much for infantry though, except Aggressors and Centurions, as they are the types of infantry most likely to be shot by high AP, multi-wound guns. Regular infantry doesn't generally face too much AP -3 (or better) firepower, thus the invuln is largely wasted on astartes power armor. Even a lascannon shot against infantry in cover mean Feirros is doing nothing to help there. This is similar to the Terminator 5++ problem; most of the time the 2+ armor save is doing as good a job or better than invuln, and given that you are paying for that invuln (somewhere it's baked into the cost), you are basically not paying for an efficient model. My fear is that without the vehicular 5++, Feirros may be in a similar position. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359050-iron-hands-nerf/page/14/#findComment-5411655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 I think that Feirros accompanying a squad of Aggressors or Centurions boosted by a 5++ and a 5+++ as well as improved armour save is still an exceptional combination of abilities that opponents will struggle against. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359050-iron-hands-nerf/page/14/#findComment-5411663 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahzek451 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Yeah, I am in the camp that it is one of the few things that went too far on the nerfing. Everything else was fine, and necessary. If anything, give him back his 5++ on vehicles, but do NOT let it affect units with the flyer battlefield role. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359050-iron-hands-nerf/page/14/#findComment-5411664 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 I don't actually mind if they bring it back, as long as his cost reflects the boosts he provides. 250 is more accurate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359050-iron-hands-nerf/page/14/#findComment-5411666 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 I don't actually mind if they bring it back, as long as his cost reflects the boosts he provides. 250 is more accurate. With the other changes, resetting the Invulnerable aura wouldn't justify a 140pt increase. Maybe up to 140-160, but I wouldn't say he deserves a 140% price increase. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359050-iron-hands-nerf/page/14/#findComment-5411698 Share on other sites More sharing options...
emperorpants Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 I actually agree that the nerf to the invuln aura was a bit too much. I think he should have kept his aura and then been costed around 160-180 points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359050-iron-hands-nerf/page/14/#findComment-5411756 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 250 points is an insane jump , he should have his invul apply to vehicles again and go up to maybe 150 max Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359050-iron-hands-nerf/page/14/#findComment-5411761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Prior to the nerf he was the best named character, not counting the Primarch. The best named hero should have the highest cost. 220 at the least for the sheer utity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359050-iron-hands-nerf/page/14/#findComment-5411769 Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x19 Parabellum Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Prior to the nerf he was the best named character, not counting the Primarch. The best named hero should have the highest cost. 220 at the least for the sheer utity. 220 is at the upper end of where I would put him. I would have placed him 180-190 with a caveat of 5++ only applying to NON-TITANIC vehicles NOT with the "FLYER" battlefield role. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359050-iron-hands-nerf/page/14/#findComment-5411774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahzek451 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 I don't actually mind if they bring it back, as long as his cost reflects the boosts he provides. 250 is more accurate. Holy smokes! 20-50 points increase at least, but dang! That's insane. an 140 pt increase? Cawl has just as much utility(if not more) and he's at 190 isn't it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359050-iron-hands-nerf/page/14/#findComment-5411779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Cawl is weaker in combat and has much less utility. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359050-iron-hands-nerf/page/14/#findComment-5411789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahzek451 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Cawl is weaker in combat and has much less utility. Going to have to agree to disagree on that one. Combat is roughly the same, and I wouldn't call re-rolls to hit, canticles manipulation, self-healing, and almost the same repair ability not "less utility". And you might want to check combat again, 2+ (feirros is 3+) to hit in combat and his axe is only one less strength. Sure Feirros has 2 more attacks(when charged), but cawl has canticle bonuses and his hive attacks. Feirros has to sacrice 2 of his attacks to use servo's which hit on 4. Best to use his axe. So combat-wise these guys end about equal. In a straight up fight, cawl just has to wait. He will heal his 2-4 wounds that he suffers while fairos will just bleed. The hive attacks will help find a few 1's and cause some wounds and speaking of combat utility...never underestimate what hive attacks can do to help clear some light infantry. Feiros will likely get surrounded and blocked off from leaving a horde attack and drown in it. Where at least cawl can clear a few models on his own. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359050-iron-hands-nerf/page/14/#findComment-5411802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeltaRange Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 I think the Feirros change is good. Iron Hands shouldn't simply be tough vehicles, they should also be tough infantry. The changes bring the focus back around to the actual Astartes and not just an army of hover tanks and flyers. 5++ doesn't really do much for infantry though, except Aggressors and Centurions, as they are the types of infantry most likely to be shot by high AP, multi-wound guns. Regular infantry doesn't generally face too much AP -3 (or better) firepower, thus the invuln is largely wasted on astartes power armor. Even a lascannon shot against infantry in cover mean Feirros is doing nothing to help there. This is similar to the Terminator 5++ problem; most of the time the 2+ armor save is doing as good a job or better than invuln, and given that you are paying for that invuln (somewhere it's baked into the cost), you are basically not paying for an efficient model. My fear is that without the vehicular 5++, Feirros may be in a similar position. A 5++ on massed infantry like Intercessors is nothing to be sneezed at. Combined with a 6+ FNP (or 5+ if you use the strat) this can really put the damper on overcharged Plasma/Disintegrator Cannons Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359050-iron-hands-nerf/page/14/#findComment-5411811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
quasistellar Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 People (well one guy who plays ultramarines and is trying to nerf him to complete trash tier) are GREATLY exaggerating Feirros’s melee combat capabilities. He has 3+ WS (4+ for servo arms) and no rerolls. He is in no way, shape, or form a 200+ point character. He was under priced before but now he’s about right. His opportunity cost is MUCH higher now though because other HQs can do everything he does minus the 5++. He lost a ton of synergy in lists with the nerfs though which will make him hard to justify. Why bother with a 5++ invuln (remember it only comes into play for centurions with -4 AP and -5 in cover weapons) and not just an extra centurion (same price as a maxed out centurion with lascannons) or squad of intercessors? He has to be within 3” to use signum array and 1” for repair. Heck you could just take another thunderfire cannon for cheaper and you get a techmarine that can heal d3 wounds included. So basically to get his value you gotta wedge him between a vehicle and some centurions or other heavy weapon infantry. 5++ at 110 points just isn’t worth it alone when you can just take more marines IMO. In my lists I am making (dual battalions) I always struggle to make him work now. I take librarian, lieutenant, captain (chapter master), and chaplain. What should be replaced to add Feirros? Sure he adds invuln to tech marines, lieutenants, and librarians, but Vindicares ignore invulns anyway. Feirros can’t carry Ironstone either. what I’m getting at is that Feirros was good because of the vehicle invuln and double heal, and now both are gone. The +1 BS was just gravy when librarians and chaplains can also do that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359050-iron-hands-nerf/page/14/#findComment-5411931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 I could see him costed at up to 150 points if vehicles got the 5++ back. 250 is ridiculous. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359050-iron-hands-nerf/page/14/#findComment-5411933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 He doubles successful saves made against anything ap-3 shooting at a unit with a 3+, just as a basic example. Against Ap-4 weapons he increases durability of units by 33%. If he's using that to boost 3 Repulsors you're basically getting an extra Repulsor worth of durability against anti tank/high AP weapons. If you actually break down just how much more durable he made certain units it's very substantial. If it's not a big deal people wouldn't care. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359050-iron-hands-nerf/page/14/#findComment-5411982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 250 points is still way too much plus Iron Hands don’t need any more nerfs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359050-iron-hands-nerf/page/14/#findComment-5412066 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Sacrifice Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 5++ on vehicles was broken? Really? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359050-iron-hands-nerf/page/14/#findComment-5412177 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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