Iron Hands nerf?

[faithonwings]

Yeah the flyers and the Leviathan are still overly powerful.

The flyers can be limited by core rulebook changes, alternatively an alterations to the IH doctrine could fix them. The Leviathan change should come in a FW Index FAQ, same as what happened with the Scorpius.

 

To be honest, I'm not sure they need fixing. I was saying that the flyers are still a valid choice. Not that futher nerving was required. There is nothing wrong with having good and strong options. When they get out of hand however.. Problem before was that even if someone was to go first they had to deal with with a 5++ from Feirros and the relic. A lascannon shot that would wound still would got saved on a 5+ save, a -1 to damage before 6+++ saves. With the first two gone I think it's about good right now.

 

 

The Leviathan matter however.. Yes, it's OP, even now with the stone nerf. But one OP model gives you an advantage, it won't win you the game on it's own if you'r opponent plays it smart. Suggested nerf would not be a bad one, but does it have to be done? 

 

In other words, there is nothing wrong with IH being a stronger SM chapter then the other ones. Just so long as they are not OP all around. One way or the other some chapter will always be stronger then others. Before it's Ultra's, now it's IH, in some time it's someone elses turn. Also, it's not like there aren't any good build with the other chapters. Sure, they are more difficult to play, but I think there are some solid builds after all. Maybe even better builds.

[quasistellar]

You could also argue that their close ties to the Adeptus Mechanicus allow for better interfacing with their vehicles, giving them a slight edge in combat, if you want to go that way.

 

I believe there is actually some fluff supporting IH being good with flyers.  I can't remember offhand where I read that, though.  I think people are in general more annoyed that somehow IH land speeders are superior to White Scars (their biker + speeder bonus is really kind of a joke compared to Calculated Fury).

[ERJAK]

Honestly if they nerf more stuff I think Feirros should get the invuln bubble back. I think a lot of people are seeing the FAQ errata and seeing the lack of vehicle invuln and saying "great!" The problem is that's pretty much 90% of the reason to take feirros, another 9% being the double heal (impossible now), and the remaining is the Signum array. Without those things he's just meh. I really think he's a 90 point character now (where I figured maybe 130-170 before). Or whatever a basic gravis captain costs. A gravis captain can even be upgraded to chapter master and carry the iron stone--which are now more valuable than Feirros. Or even just a basic lieutenant with iron stone is a better choice.

 

I guess you could play a IH infantry list, but that kinda works against their strengths.

 

I would have been much happier with a big points increase than I am with complete functional change of the character.

 

In fact I'm going to actually send GW an email about it and see.

 

And don't take this to say I didn't think IH needed nerfs. I just think they did this one particular thing the wrong way! I still personally think the Levi needs some nerfs to make it easier to balance, and there is just a basic level of OPness when Calculated Fury (as it is written now) stacks with Dev Doctrine, and Flyers in general.

Taking a non-smash captain in IH is sad times. You're just wasting one of the best doctrine rules in the game.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Honestly if they nerf more stuff I think Feirros should get the invuln bubble back. I think a lot of people are seeing the FAQ errata and seeing the lack of vehicle invuln and saying "great!" The problem is that's pretty much 90% of the reason to take feirros, another 9% being the double heal (impossible now), and the remaining is the Signum array. Without those things he's just meh. I really think he's a 90 point character now (where I figured maybe 130-170 before). Or whatever a basic gravis captain costs. A gravis captain can even be upgraded to chapter master and carry the iron stone--which are now more valuable than Feirros. Or even just a basic lieutenant with iron stone is a better choice.

 

A gravis captain is 108 with gear included, just 2 points cheaper than Feirros. Feirros stil has a number of of advantages over the captain (though to be fair so does Captain over Feirros), which I think are worth more than 2 points, but its no longer as egregious with the bubble nerf. In no way should he made cheaper though.

[L30n1d4s]

For those upset about Ferrois' 5++ aura no longer affecting vehicles (i.e Repulsors) there is still the Automantic Paivaise upgrade on the Deredeo Dread, which gives a 5++ to all friendly Chapter models within 6" (significantly more expensive than Ferrois, but if your main goal is to keep your Repulsors alive against AP-4 shooting, it can make a difference).

[RandomMarine]

 

 

You could also argue that their close ties to the Adeptus Mechanicus allow for better interfacing with their vehicles, giving them a slight edge in combat, if you want to go that way.

I believe there is actually some fluff supporting IH being good with flyers. I can't remember offhand where I read that, though. I think people are in general more annoyed that somehow IH land speeders are superior to White Scars (their biker + speeder bonus is really kind of a joke compared to Calculated Fury).

Indeed your right IH were known for quality pilots during the heresy. We even had a dreadnought xiphon. But generally during the heresy our forte was tanks and more tanks as shown in game by the ROW

[MeltaRange]

I'm actually fine with Iron Hands being the most accurate pilots. I just wish other chapters got something to differentiate themselves as say, the fastest or hardest to hit.

Edited October 18, 2019 by MeltaRange

[MeltaRange]

Also, wanted to mention that my Iron Hands playing friend is now thinking about taking a Character Levi Dread, dual storm cannons, and giving him the Merciless Logic WL trait.  IH still have a ton of tricks.

[Ahzek451]

I wouldn't mind if Feirros re-gained the 5++ to all units. I think he should be bumped up 10-20 pts in this instance and the ability shouldn't work on anything with the flyer battlefield role. 

[RandomMarine]

Also, wanted to mention that my Iron Hands playing friend is now thinking about taking a Character Levi Dread, dual storm cannons, and giving him the Merciless Logic WL trait. IH still have a ton of tricks.

I did that in the past with my not culln the risen which was pretty dirty

[Cruor Vault]

For those upset about Ferrois' 5++ aura no longer affecting vehicles (i.e Repulsors) there is still the Automantic Paivaise upgrade on the Deredeo Dread, which gives a 5++ to all friendly Chapter models within 6" (significantly more expensive than Ferrois, but if your main goal is to keep your Repulsors alive against AP-4 shooting, it can make a difference).

 

FYI:  The Pavaise was FAQ'ed long ago to require units to be WHOLLY within 6" to maintain the benefit.

 

Repulsors are so large it's questionable if they can benefit at all, much less in a way that doesn't require their movement to be crippled.

 

 

The people winning GTs with Iron Hands are top players like Nick Rose. It’s not like Jonesy finally left the basement and won LVO.

 

Except that's exactly what was happening!  Jonesy the schmuck suddenly jumped to ~75% win rate with this army.  Way worse than even Ynarri were at the height of their reign of terror.

 

And the real dangers to the health of the community is not the power level of the lists the top contenders are bringing the field, but how badly broken the lists the guys in the middle of the pack are bringing.  It's not the Nick Roses or Brandon Grants of the world that fund these events we love so much. 

 

Its Jonesy and his 3 buddies who all showed up without a hope in hell of winning the overall event, but want to have some fun games against new people. If they're not having a good time because they got stomped by little Timmy, Sally, and Joe Bob all running Iron Hands netlists, they're not going to come back.

Edited October 18, 2019 by Cruor Vault

[L30n1d4s]

Well, Repulsors were already crowding around the old Ironstone and its 3" bubble, so it is still quite doable from that perspective... I guess my point is, losing the ability on Ferrois is not the removal of your only option here.

[BluejayJunior]

 

You could also argue that their close ties to the Adeptus Mechanicus allow for better interfacing with their vehicles, giving them a slight edge in combat, if you want to go that way.

 

I believe there is actually some fluff supporting IH being good with flyers.  I can't remember offhand where I read that, though.  I think people are in general more annoyed that somehow IH land speeders are superior to White Scars (their biker + speeder bonus is really kind of a joke compared to Calculated Fury).

 

There is a novella called Medusan Wings (can't remember the author off the top of my head) about an elite Stormhawk squadron for the Iron Hands. It's a good read. 

[Aothaine]

Feirros' 5++ aura should still affect non-flyer vehicles and affect flyer vehicles when in hover mode if they have that option. It is painful to see that GW reacted so quickly to all the complaints instead of doing more testing. Ahh well.. perhaps they will make another change in the future to fix this. IH are still really good so if they don't come back, which I doubt they will, things will still be okay.

 

Edit: Also, just want to point out that my lists were in no way affected by this change. I completely understand the relic nerf and I am fine with that. But there are other units in the game that provide similar bonuses as Feirros did. Look at the Dark Angels. No one was complaining about that -1 to hit aura which imho is far better than a 5++ save aura. I think nerfing the relic alone would have resolved a lot of the problems people were experiencing.

Edited October 18, 2019 by Aothaine

[Ahzek451]

Feirros' 5++ aura should still affect non-flyer vehicles and affect flyer vehicles when in hover mode if they have that option. It is painful to see that GW reacted so quickly to all the complaints instead of doing more testing. Ahh well.. perhaps they will make another change in the future to fix this. IH are still really good so if they don't come back, which I doubt they will, things will still be okay.

 

Edit: Also, just want to point out that my lists were in no way affected by this change. I completely understand the relic nerf and I am fine with that. But there are other units in the game that provide similar bonuses as Feirros did. Look at the Dark Angels. No one was complaining about that -1 to hit aura which imho is far better than a 5++ save aura. I think nerfing the relic alone would have resolved a lot of the problems people were experiencing.

 

This is the only change that didn't make sense to me. Everything else was fine. Totally agree that it should only work on "ground" units. Well...GW reacted to people writing in, hopefully those that feel passionate about this are writing into the FAQ team.

 

40kfaq@gwplc.com

[MeltaRange]

I thought the 5++ was interesting, and didn't want to see it nerfed.  They must REALLY love their Calculated Fury.

[Ishagu]

I think the Feirros change is good. Iron Hands shouldn't simply be tough vehicles, they should also be tough infantry.

 

The changes bring the focus back around to the actual Astartes and not just an army of hover tanks and flyers.

[Aothaine]

I think the Feirros change is good. Iron Hands shouldn't simply be tough vehicles, they should also be tough infantry.

 

The changes bring the focus back around to the actual Astartes and not just an army of hover tanks and flyers.

 

Wasn't that the speciality of the Iron Hands though? Vehicles and robotics? Maybe I'm wrong. Just seems a bit over done imho. It is all good though. Like I said before, the nerfs that were placed upon the Iron Hands don't affect the lists I want to build with them at all. Just feel bad. Took a good long time for the Guilliman nerf. Iron Hands had 1-2 weeks and people were up in arms. Just seems strange.

 

Ahh well. it is what it is. :D

[quasistellar]

I think the Feirros change is good. Iron Hands shouldn't simply be tough vehicles, they should also be tough infantry.

 

The changes bring the focus back around to the actual Astartes and not just an army of hover tanks and flyers.

 

I would agree with you if it wasn't an Iron Father for Iron Hands, and not something like a super techmarine for Ultramarines.  IH already get the 5+++ FnP strat for infantry anyway.

 

I'm not 100% convinced that the Iron Hands doctrine/chapter tactic/calculated fury will remain unchanged.  My fear is that they will continue to nerf other things, and that will leave Feirros behind.  

[Aothaine]

 

I would agree with you if it wasn't an Iron Father for Iron Hands, and not something like a super techmarine for Ultramarines.  IH already get the 5+++ FnP strat for infantry anyway.

 

I'm not 100% convinced that the Iron Hands doctrine/chapter tactic/calculated fury will remain unchanged.  My fear is that they will continue to nerf other things, and that will leave Feirros behind.  

 

I'm waiting to purchase my 2021 LVO army for just this reason. I want to make sure the rules are somewhat stable before I invest $1,200 on an army. Worst case scenario though I can just jump over to Ultramarines. Doubt they'll be seeing a nerf anytime soon and they are still one of the best armies in the game.

[Ahzek451]

I've been seeing a common trend from the more reasonable iron hands players that they accept the changes except for the 5++ for Feirros. That keeps cropping up. Seemingly for narrative and gameplay reasons. As mentioned....his focus is on vehicles, now he's split between something that boosts infantry and abilities that help vehicles. Weird. 

Edited October 18, 2019 by Ahzek451

[Aothaine]

I've been seeing a common trend from the more reasonable iron hands players that they accept the changes except for the 5++ for Feirros. That keeps cropping up. Seemingly for narrative and gameplay reasons. As mentioned....his focus is on vehicles, now he's split between something that boosts infantry and abilities that help vehicles. Weird. 

 

Yeah it just doesn't seem to fit. But what ever makes the rabble happy I suppose lol! I'm not even 100% sold on Iron Hands just yet. But since I want to run Land Speeder Storms and Scouts, well.. so far Iron Hands seem the best army for that.

[Dark Legionnare]

I've been seeing a common trend from the more reasonable iron hands players that they accept the changes except for the 5++ for Feirros. That keeps cropping up. Seemingly for narrative and gameplay reasons. As mentioned....his focus is on vehicles, now he's split between something that boosts infantry and abilities that help vehicles. Weird.

Yeah, that's basically my whole thing. All the other changes, fine with, stuff was pretty imbalanced. Especially the strategems' cheap costs.

 

I'm wholeheartedly in the camp of let his invuln come back for ground vehicles only, and with a 50-90pt increase, because it is very powerful. Been saying he needed a points increase from the start.

 

Now, like others have said, he's still strong, but feels conflicted. Like, now he's been switched to helping centurions or infantry survive, likely meaning his repair/role as a techmarine sees far less use because vehicles have to go back to hiding strategically (in larger LoS blocking venues he and his inf likely aren't going) to have a chance of surviving AP-4 (the 3+ SV, no invuln ones at least.)

 

Shame the potential for abuse basically made it invalidated for us lads who just wanted to have their primaris vehicle or dread be able to possibly survive Deldar AV for more than half a battle round!

 

Like I said before, time to go back to vehicular suicide I guess. :P

Edited October 18, 2019 by Dark Legionnare

[Kallas]

The rule is Rite of Tempering. That's the Rite where Iron Hands ritualistically cut off their hand.

 

Totally makes sense that it's a buff for infantry, specifically.

[Aothaine]

The rule is Rite of Tempering. That's the Rite where Iron Hands ritualistically cut off their hand.

 

Totally makes sense that it's a buff for infantry, specifically.

 

I'm not saying that infantry should not get it. I'm saying that ground vehicles should as well.