Iron Hands nerf?

[brÖtherIrön]

 

 

My changes would be:

 

 

Calculated Fury:

The unique doctrine should only apply to infantry. Iron Hands already have a powerful chapter tactic that bolsters their vehicles.

 

Iron Father Feirros:

Increase cost to 220 points. Feirros is the best Astartes named character in terms of utility (In the HQ slot), specifically when combined with Iron Hands tactics and rules. His costs need to reflect this simple fact.

 

March of the Ancients:

Change to 2CP, and can only be used once per battle. At the moment if you have a Dread with less than 10 wounds in your list you automatically use this strat. At least make me think about it.

 

Cogitated Martyrdom:

Change to 3CP. It costs 3CP to make some Intercessors target a character. Make it cost 3CP to negate their attacks in return. Alternatively change it to 2CP but limit's it's use to the Tactical Doctrine.

 

Machine Empathy:

Change to 2CP. Far too powerful when combined with Feirros and the psychic power

 

Iron Stone:

Change the effect to work only once per battle. Activate at the start of a turn of the controlling player's choosing. This is currently the best relic in the game, it need to be toned down.

 

Souls of Iron:

Change to once per battle, or change cost to 3CP. In combination with a CP re-roll and regular deny-the-witch this makes Iron Hands shut down psykers too reliably.

 

Blessing of the Machine God:

Change to WC6

 

Psysteel Armour:

Change to WC7

Boy oh boy, somebody does not like Iron Hands, like a lot. Are you sure you do not play Ultras to its fullest? I mean, what do you offer, give Guillman another 100pts increase, -2 to hit if you fall back. Where is the balance? "We" cried a lot about Ultras and I saw a ton of Ultras. To be honest, I think Repulsors will rise, Leviathans and Feirros in points and that is about it. We will get the same treatment as Ultras did. We will get not worse rules wise but we pay in points. I hope everyone is happy. If you really, really have a problem with Feirros, you better get your Scouts/Eliminators. If you do not want it, you better do not to castle up against hands but try to play your ton of cool strategems Ultras provide and play the mission.

 

 

I think you should take it on math. How many Snipers do you Need to kill Feirros or the Ironstone guy (think about the stratagems !!!) they have a better FnP and can take the TAU-Drone-Thing.

 

 

If you know the rules you have to declare your drone-unit in advance. That is all you need to know. Drone declared, kill the drones. If he has no drones, 1 vindicare is sufficient to kill him otherwise 2 rounds with 9 eliminators will do the job. But this suggests that you actually want to kill him in order to make his e.g. Repulsors weaker therefore you cannot withstand his castle up fire. Can you win the mission by points if his castle is still alive?

[brÖtherIrön]

 

 

My changes would be:

 

 

Calculated Fury:

The unique doctrine should only apply to infantry. Iron Hands already have a powerful chapter tactic that bolsters their vehicles.

 

Iron Father Feirros:

Increase cost to 220 points. Feirros is the best Astartes named character in terms of utility (In the HQ slot), specifically when combined with Iron Hands tactics and rules. His costs need to reflect this simple fact.

 

March of the Ancients:

Change to 2CP, and can only be used once per battle. At the moment if you have a Dread with less than 10 wounds in your list you automatically use this strat. At least make me think about it.

 

Cogitated Martyrdom:

Change to 3CP. It costs 3CP to make some Intercessors target a character. Make it cost 3CP to negate their attacks in return. Alternatively change it to 2CP but limit's it's use to the Tactical Doctrine.

 

Machine Empathy:

Change to 2CP. Far too powerful when combined with Feirros and the psychic power

 

Iron Stone:

Change the effect to work only once per battle. Activate at the start of a turn of the controlling player's choosing. This is currently the best relic in the game, it need to be toned down.

 

Souls of Iron:

Change to once per battle, or change cost to 3CP. In combination with a CP re-roll and regular deny-the-witch this makes Iron Hands shut down psykers too reliably.

 

Blessing of the Machine God:

Change to WC6

 

Psysteel Armour:

Change to WC7

Boy oh boy, somebody does not like Iron Hands, like a lot. Are you sure you do not play Ultras to its fullest? I mean, what do you offer, give Guillman another 100pts increase, -2 to hit if you fall back. Where is the balance? "We" cried a lot about Ultras and I saw a ton of Ultras. To be honest, I think Repulsors will rise, Leviathans and Feirros in points and that is about it. We will get the same treatment as Ultras did. We will get not worse rules wise but we pay in points. I hope everyone is happy. If you really, really have a problem with Feirros, you better get your Scouts/Eliminators. If you do not want it, you better do not to castle up against hands but try to play your ton of cool strategems Ultras provide and play the mission.

 

 

Dude, I'll be civil since I don't want this topic closed, but given your first gate-keeping thread, and your attitude here, you're coming across as really obnoxious, so please, quit portraying everyone who disagrees with you as whiners who are either bandwagon jumpers or just don't know how to play.

 

1st. Do not "dude" me if you are personally attacking me with "obnoxious". 

2nd I play Iron Hands Mirror Matches and still win without boogeyman-units.

3rd I react to people where they come faction-/ruleswise. I suggest solutions to their problems which are not mine. 

 

As an afterthought you have to think why have a strong urge to call a person you do not know obnoxious, what really triggers you. I do not have to know it and I do not care.

Edited October 17, 2019 by brÖtherIrön

[GrinNfool]

 

 

 

 

Dude, I'll be civil since I don't want this topic closed, but given your first gate-keeping thread, and your attitude here, you're coming across as really obnoxious, so please, quit portraying everyone who disagrees with you as whiners who are either bandwagon jumpers or just don't know how to play.

 

Should probably just avoid replying to him at this point honestly, he is trying to get the thread closed because he doesn't like the content, much better off just keeping the thread on topic.

[Ishagu]

I think it's important to be objective about this, and to think about the game in general - both in competitive and casual/narrative play.

 

I'm often accused of being a GW apologist or being overly positive, but I can recognise when rules are tuned too high and thus cause problems. Iron Hands aren't just an issue in tournament play; they cause a lot of grief in casual games too and I don't think it benefits the community.

 

No one is suggesting that the Iron Hands should become a weak chapter. I'm perfectly happy for them to remain overall the best, but the gap is simply too high at the current time.

[RandomMarine]

Honestly imo IH are no less obnoxious to play against than eldar flyer spam or plague bearer spam lists. Yes we do need a bit of a nerf but a lot of people taking it too far. Imo only 3 changes are required ironstone to single unit only, iron father upto around 180 and the super doctrine needs a tweak. Edited October 17, 2019 by Brother Tyler
Non-constructive portion removed.

[brÖtherIrön]

Honestly imo IH are no less obnoxious to play against than eldar flyer spam or plague bearer spam lists. Yes we do need a bit of a nerf but a lot of people taking it too far. Imo only 3 changes are required ironstone to single unit only, iron father upto around 180 and the super doctrine needs a tweak.

Honestly I am prepared for this, I only need a Char contemptor with 5+++ and a Sicaran to keep alive. I still would be happy with no movement penalty without 1s-reroll. But I really suppose Stone will get to 1 unit per turn, so re-roll 1 is still justified, since if you go big, you can lose big (tanks). But if you talk about Hands-Stone-Nerf you could think, is it time to whine about Imperial Fists? I am very cautious using vehicles as a Hands player, even now.

 

I think it's important to be objective about this, and to think about the game in general - both in competitive and casual/narrative play.

 

I'm often accused of being a GW apologist or being overly positive, but I can recognise when rules are tuned too high and thus cause problems. Iron Hands aren't just an issue in tournament play; they cause a lot of grief in casual games too and I don't think it benefits the community.

 

No one is suggesting that the Iron Hands should become a weak chapter. I'm perfectly happy for them to remain overall the best, but the gap is simply too high at the current time.

I followed YOUR thread on dakkadakka and saw your reactions other peoples responses. I am glad that we both do not have to throw insults at each other. I remember Girlyman too vividly +3CP, + full hit roll + full wound roll. Tis was bad. I hope you can make your peace if you only have ONE unkillable tank if you stick with Ultras. But Iron Hands are good, but not broken. Too few Hands Players had to play against super Knights/Admech Lists, Harlequins and in the next time Imperial Fists, so I honestly think you have good and bad match ups so have and will have Iron Hands. Think about it. Turn 1 anti-alpha strike is nice, it makes Knights and Tau match-ups smoother. If you choose to shoot at Levis and Repulsors you have and continue to have a problem. Edited October 17, 2019 by Brother Tyler
Non-constructive portion of quote removed.

[RandomMarine]

 

Honestly imo IH are no less obnoxious to play against than eldar flyer spam or plague bearer spam lists. Yes we do need a bit of a nerf but a lot of people taking it too far. Imo only 3 changes are required ironstone to single unit only, iron father upto around 180 and the super doctrine needs a tweak.

And every IH player coming in here and crying about how they don't want a nerf because they like being able to take almost any list and beat everyone. We get it bud. We can all read.

 

What did you expect bud your in the IH subforum. Lol

 

Did I call for nerfs yes I did. but in this thread 90% of the suggested nerfs would smash the supplement into irrelevance. Which is anti balance and very much sounds like ppl being salty. I agree that we are the most powerful supplement and there should be parity between the supplements. But I'll l reiterate my opinion that they are no worse than the eldar flyer spam which for 3 factions are auto lose against

Edited October 17, 2019 by Brother Tyler
Non-constructive portion of (own) quoted post removed.

[MeltaRange]

What nerfs in particular are you saying are too harsh?

[Kallas]

If you know the rules you have to declare your drone-unit in advance. That is all you need to know. Drone declared, kill the drones. If he has no drones, 1 vindicare is sufficient to kill him otherwise 2 rounds with 9 eliminators will do the job. But this suggests that you actually want to kill him in order to make his e.g. Repulsors weaker therefore you cannot withstand his castle up fire. Can you win the mission by points if his castle is still alive?

• Sure, they declare it before hand. That doesn't actually mean that they're standing out in the open. A five man unit of Intercessors can happily sit with a character within 3". The character doesn't have to be "behind" the unit.
• One Vindicare is not sufficient to kill Feirros; Ironstone Bearer, well that depends on the character carrying it (Gravis Captain? Vindicare cries) and even then the Vindicare is not actually any good at killing characters quickly. Nine Eliminators: sure, they'll put out the hurt, but again you're being very vague; two rounds with nine Eliminators will kill...what? Feirros? Are you assuming Mortis or Executioner rounds in that?
• "Win mission vs castle": a perfectly fine notion. Doesn't work if your army gets annihilated and you don't have enough models to do the mission. 

 

Dude, I'll be civil since I don't want this topic closed, but given your first gate-keeping thread, and your attitude here, you're coming across as really obnoxious, so please, quit portraying everyone who disagrees with you as whiners who are either bandwagon jumpers or just don't know how to play.

1st. Do not "dude" me if you are personally attacking me with "obnoxious". 

2nd I play Iron Hands Mirror Matches and still win without boogeyman-units.

3rd I react to people where they come faction-/ruleswise. I suggest solutions to their problems which are not mine. 

 

As an afterthought you have to think why have a strong urge to call a person you do not know obnoxious, what really triggers you. I do not have to know it and I do not care

 

• Lord_Caerolion did not attack you; they made a statement about the way that your posts are coming across.
• Ok? That's an anecdote, and it's a single sentence with literally no other information. 
• Your suggestions to the problems presented have all been incredibly weak, easily countered themselves with little to no effort, or just generally not applicable to actual gameplay.

Honestly imo IH are no less obnoxious to play against than eldar flyer spam or plague bearer spam lists. Yes we do need a bit of a nerf but a lot of people taking it too far. Imo only 3 changes are required ironstone to single unit only, iron father upto around 180 and the super doctrine needs a tweak.

 

Eldar Flyer Spam absolutely is obnoxious to play against, and pretty damn unhealthy for the competitive scene. No argument there.

 

I'm fully with you on the first paragraph, the second, however, is entirely unnecessary. If you cannot see that the Iron Hands supplement is head and shoulders above the other supplements, and pretty much all other Codexes, then there is no point; thankfully, you yourself do actually see an issue ("Yes we do need a bit of a nerf") - so maybe you could hold off on the (actual) personal attacks calling people whiny bitches.

 

Personally, I'm very happy with the Ultramarines supplement, I think it's interesting and has some solid stuff in there. Is it as good as the Iron Hands? Hell no! But it's good enough to let me be competitive.

Edited October 17, 2019 by Kallas
Non-constructive portion of quoted post removed.

[brÖtherIrön]

What nerfs in particular are you saying are too harsh?

I would say everything is too harsh, if people spam it, make it a bit more expensive. job done. and feirros, at least 50 pts more.

[Kallas]

 

What nerfs in particular are you saying are too harsh?

I would say everything is too harsh, if people spam it, make it a bit more expensive. job done. and feirros, at least 50 pts more.

 

You and I have posted about this previously: you didn't like that the Guilliman + Stormravens/Razorbacks made them more expensive; let's try to avoid that now (because it was a mistake to punish the units, and not fix Guilliman, at the time). Feirros, sure, he needs a price increase; but if the massive amount of combo'd rules stacking can be tweaked down some without nerfing Repulsor Executioners and Stormhawks into oblivion (Stormhawks, for example, are decent units for anyone else, but nothing like IH ones; making 'Hawks cost 20-30pts more would probably kill them off for anyone else).

 

The issue is not the cost (well, technically anything can be balanced at the right cost) it's the combination of Chapter/Successor Tactics, Calculated Fury and a bevy of powerful, multipurpose stratagems that cover every issue that Iron Hands could face.

[TrawlingCleaner]

 

 

What nerfs in particular are you saying are too harsh?

I would say everything is too harsh, if people spam it, make it a bit more expensive. job done. and feirros, at least 50 pts more.

Feirrios is too cheap atm, not by a huge amount. I generally think points increases don't fix the game, only can it fix them in the extreme of cases ie Feirrios.

 

Bumping the points of "spammable units" is entirely counterproductive and hurts the rest of the faction. Why bump the price for stormhawks when they're very okay with white scars or salamanders for example

[brÖtherIrön]

 

 

What nerfs in particular are you saying are too harsh?

I would say everything is too harsh, if people spam it, make it a bit more expensive. job done. and feirros, at least 50 pts more.

Feirrios is too cheap atm, not by a huge amount. I generally think points increases don't fix the game, only can it fix them in the extreme of cases ie Feirrios.

 

Bumping the points of "spammable units" is entirely counterproductive and hurts the rest of the faction. Why bump the price for stormhawks when they're very okay with white scars or salamanders for example

 

Believe me they will rise in points because friendly gamers ruin it for everyone else but at least GWs quarter-yearly financial report is fine for this period. That is why I do not play "that guy" lists and do not try to excel in a single aspect.

[Kallas]

Believe me they will rise in points because friendly gamers ruin it for everyone else but at least GWs quarter-yearly financial report is fine for this period. That is why I do not play "that guy" lists and do not try to excel in a single aspect.

 

1. Why are you targeting friendly gamers, as ruining things? 
2. The tournament results we have for the past couple of weeks have had very varied lists: it's hardly "That Guy" trying to force a single aspect. The whole supplement is incredibly strong, to the point that multiple different army builds are more than good enough.

[brÖtherIrön]

 

Believe me they will rise in points because friendly gamers ruin it for everyone else but at least GWs quarter-yearly financial report is fine for this period. That is why I do not play "that guy" lists and do not try to excel in a single aspect.

 

1. Why are you targeting friendly gamers, as ruining things? 
2. The tournament results we have for the past couple of weeks have had very varied lists: it's hardly "That Guy" trying to force a single aspect. The whole supplement is incredibly strong, to the point that multiple different army builds are more than good enough.

 

I am sorry, my joke was not received as intended, Razorback, Razorflock, Cultists, etc. Spam for choice of units by "friendly" = hypercompetitve players. And it is good that Iron Hands have many ways to win. I would be not amused if I only HAVE to play Repulsors to win. But be aware if noobs won games or won by good players. I really hope you find you find a way not only to deal with Iron Hands but also other factions. There is a lot out there to ruin your day.

[Kallas]

I am sorry, my joke was not received as intended, Razorback, Razorflock, Cultists, etc. Spam for choice of units by "friendly" = hypercompetitve players. And it is good that Iron Hands have many ways to win. I would be not amused if I only HAVE to play Repulsors to win. But be aware if noobs won games or won by good players. I really hope you find you find a way not only to deal with Iron Hands but also other factions. There is a lot out there to ruin your day.

 

Tournament Iron Hands have an almost 80% win rate. This has been covered before by Ishagu (and maybe others): generally speaking, when more people are playing a certain faction the win rate drops, as lower skill players drag that ratio down; for Iron Hands this appears to not be the case, as the win rate is staggeringly high. That suggests that there is a problem since it's more than just the top tier players (the numbers I heard from the 40k Stats Centre podcast was 230-something games, recorded, played at events since the release).

[RandomMarine]

@kallas I don't feel I made a personal attack (did I name any specific individuals?). I feel I made a generalised statement about the tone of a lot of the posts on here

 

Literally 2 posts after the one you quoted I stated clearly that what I wanted was parity between the supplements

[Kallas]

@kallas I don't feel I made a personal attack (did I name any specific individuals?). I feel I made a generalised statement about the tone of a lot of the posts on here

 

Literally 2 posts after the one you quoted I stated clearly that what I wanted was parity between the supplements

 

Maybe "personal" attacks wasn't the right term. Generalised attacks, then.

 

Regardless, you did state a reasonable desire for reasonable nerfs, and that's good, and I did mention that in my post as laudable.

[MeltaRange]

For the first time ever, at least as far as I can remember, we actually have play testers coming out and saying “Yeah, we totally saw this coming, but it is what it is”

 

If you can’t take that objective fact, combined with the objective fact that the win rate at their first round of tournaments - not with a broken thing mind you, but a variety of lists - was 80% and they placed first in 12 of 14, then I’m not sure it’s possible to convince you something is wrong.

[Ishagu]

The funny thing is that the super Iron Hands lists hasn't been found yet. Their win rate could increase.

[RandomMarine]

Oh it's been found ish it's just being kept on the quiet as it's filthy to the point i don't like to use it because of how obnoxious it is to play against and it doesn't even use the ironstone, executioners,flyers or a leviathan

[MeltaRange]

Oh it's been found ish it's just being kept on the quiet as it's filthy to the point i don't like to use it because of how obnoxious it is to play against and it doesn't even use the ironstone, executioners,flyers or a leviathan

It literally could be anything. Iron Hands do pod assault with grav cannons, aggressors in Repulsor...anything is good.

[Special Officer Doofy]

 

Oh it's been found ish it's just being kept on the quiet as it's filthy to the point i don't like to use it because of how obnoxious it is to play against and it doesn't even use the ironstone, executioners,flyers or a leviathan

It literally could be anything. Iron Hands do pod assault with grav cannons, aggressors in Repulsor...anything is good.

That's the biggest complaint about them in my gaming group. I keep seeing IH players use "Eldar flying circus" as a shield, but two wrongs don't make a right. Eldar flying lists are much more specific versus IH's ability to make very powerful lists out of so many different units and can adapt to so much more. I don't want to see them nerfed into the ground but usually factions/chapters and or units have offense, defense and mobility and should excel in one, be average in one and lack in the other. But with their trait, doctrine and strats they have it all.

[emperorpants]

So the faq is out, and literally the only change is march of the ancients can only be used once a game.  Everything else is apparently working as intended.  I guess IH will be op for a very, VERY long time...as happy as this might make some people, it's not good for the game.  Not at all.  

Edited October 17, 2019 by emperorpants

[Lemondish]

The funny thing is that the super Iron Hands lists hasn't been found yet. Their win rate could increase.

 

I don't think that's likely, honestly. 

 

The most dangerous lists already take advantage of their mobility, lethality, and durability without carrying Feirros into the mix. The big castles have those huge downsides that make winning against other TAC lists a bit harder to achieve. If we could track the type of Iron Hands list I would be comfortable predicting that, as the numbers continue to roll in, these castle type lists will drop in efficiency as more and more of them face their natural hard counters. When they have to spread out to contest objectives they're doing so with many fewer models than the Iron Air Force, for example. 

 

Do not misunderstand me - the Triple Repulsor + Feirros + Ironstone castle is a powerful list, no doubt about it. It has counters from things like lots of haywire, deny overwatch, and basic containment. White Scars should do well against them, and appear to in some cases. But I'm not afraid of that chapter tactic. I'm afraid of something like Master Artisans and Stealthy. Stealthy is far and away more effective at reducing damage than a 6+++ is, and with many of these units carrying a 3+ save (2+ in cover, which they'll have most of the time), you need AP -4 weaponry before the missing 5++ from Feirros is noticed. Increase him in points all we want, and the gods know he might even need it, but he's far from my concern today. I can foresee ways to contain and dismantle a castle like that. 

 

It's the Iron Air Force style successor lists that scare me. Not having to make the classic 8th edition Marine vehicle trade of accuracy and mobility is an amazing bonus. It's why I like Ultras for this as well. 

 

Only Ultras aren't stupid durable, mobile, and deadly from turn 1...

 

Edit: And the much feared but never seen two Warlord Trait Leviathan remains! The March of the Ancients piece being the only major change is super disappointing, but a welcome change. 

 

Well, I suppose we can always hope for the Spring FAQ? Until then, sorry Iron Hands brothers - but I think there will people who will rarely play you. Might be time to play black Ultras ;)

Edited October 17, 2019 by Lemondish