New Mephiston/Psychic awakening p3

[SnorriSnorrison]

 

 

The litanies look weird - when do they activate? When the model makes the attack or if it is around the model when the litany was inspiring, so at the start of the turn?

 

Otherwise, what my post was missing - yay, free stuff!

And this is GW, so we shouldn’t take this for granted. Only a small payment of 32,50€ will net you the rules the other factions get in their main army or through an FAQ.

 

Did the grav bomb get interesting for us at last?

Litanies activate at the Start of the Battle Round. So even if you're going second, you need to pop them at the top of each Battle Round. This is crucial because it means you need to have your Chaplain and preferred receiver(s) of buffs in position at the start of each Battle Round. Aka do not put Mr. Chappy in a Transport to start the game or Deep Strike, etc.... since they have to be on the board in order to activate it. Hence why it's particularly wonky for us to combo with Descent of Angels and such.

 

I have used a Dark Apostle in my Iron Warriors list a bunch so I have firsthand experience in the pros/cons of the mechanic.

 

For us as BA, it's going to be tricky since T1 we could make the greatest benefit of the +1 To Hit shooting one, but then we want to be jumping up the board to set up the +2 to charges for our Assault units. I think this is where Astorath may start to see the table more if he inherently can chant 2x Litanies instead of just 1.

That was my thinking, and what makes the whole mechanic a bit...bad. It no longer applies in the phase the buff is used, but only if the unit is next to the Chaplain when the litany is chanted. Maybe more fluffy, but sounds like a pain in the rear armour and will lead to chaplains not really being at the front lines, but lots of UWoFiring of units that have received said buff.

 

I’m also very interested in point costs changes for SG and some of our core units from CA19, and how those will play out. SG could need a little help in points I’d say.

[Majkhel]

So, reading the article, they said something about a death company intercessor with a thunder hammer. We all know death company squads dont have sergeants. So, either intercessor death company have sergeants, which doesnt make much sense, or they will be able to equip melee weapons!

 

"Just imagine how much devastation a Death Company Intercessor with a thunder hammer is going to cause… Lots."

They say "thunder hammer", which I understand as we can equip ONE thunder hammer.

A sergeant would have a lot of impact  - he has higher Ld and additional attack. And remember that regular DC have Ld 7. If this is translated to the DC Intercessors, than having a sergeant would be a substantial boon.

[Indefragable]

 

So, reading the article, they said something about a death company intercessor with a thunder hammer. We all know death company squads dont have sergeants. So, either intercessor death company have sergeants, which doesnt make much sense, or they will be able to equip melee weapons!

 

"Just imagine how much devastation a Death Company Intercessor with a thunder hammer is going to cause… Lots."

They say "thunder hammer", which I understand as we can equip ONE thunder hammer.

A sergeant would have a lot of impact  - he has higher Ld and additional attack. And remember that regular DC have Ld 7. If this is translated to the DC Intercessors, than having a sergeant would be a substantial boon.

 

Ya know, this kinda makes me wonder if Death Company Intercessors will be the mechanic by which GW tests out melee Primaris: perhaps whatever mechanic confers <Death Company> to them, whether a Strategem or datasheet allows for them to be upgraded with any melee weapons available to them (currently chainsword, power sword, power axe, power fist, thunder hammer, but not power lance or maul for whatever reason). I’m not holding my breath, but that would be interesting to say the least and definitely compensate for DC over Vet Intercessors.

[Remtek]

Is this to much of a buff in terms of brute force? I play pure BA every now and then with a large investment in intercessors. I found vs other combat armies they hold their own as long as the enemy has to take the initiative. My main worry is we are becoming more polarising. (Countering other melee armies, but lacking enough utility/mobility vs armies where i have to take the initiative. Some of these buffs seem a bit to much, while it does not improve our 'bad' matchups. Considering how broken many of the new marine suppplements are i'm not really sure what i am hoping for with BA. I don't want to feel guilty playing them, but i also want to win some games, preferably games being decided in the last 2 turns, not the 2 first.

 

On a positive note:

Really looking forward trying lemartes and astrorath with the new litanies. The +2 to charge aura makes us much less of a one trick pony. Also the new primaris transport with 4++ looks like alot of fun to play although i prefer the aesthetics  of the classic rhino.

[Charlo]

I think BA are being shaped around that magical turn 3 charge and I quite like it.

 

Its really evocative of the red thirst with us going into battle all calm and collected, using shooting to weaken the foe but then the thirst kicks in and it's chainswording time.

 

Even basic tactical marines are going to be rocking 3A on the charge.

[Karhedron]

Ah yeah, you're right. I didn't think of it because I wouldn't do it. It feels clunky to me to do something like this. I prefer to play narrative games, and I like when whatever I do makes sense, so a Chaplain who stands behind and then suddenly goes "Oh snap! I got a Death Company to lead!" and then he leaps to them and be like "Sorry for being late guys. Where were we? Right. CHARGE FOR THE EMPEROR AND SANGUINIUS!".

Alternatively, you can imagine your Chaplain boosting to land in front of the enemy whilst chanting his Litanies. The enemy commander derisively responds with "You and what army?"

 

Then the sky darkens as a mass of Death Company descend.

[Are Verlo]

Is this to much of a buff in terms of brute force? I play pure BA every now and then with a large investment in intercessors. I found vs other combat armies they hold their own as long as the enemy has to take the initiative. My main worry is we are becoming more polarising. (Countering other melee armies, but lacking enough utility/mobility vs armies where i have to take the initiative. Some of these buffs seem a bit to much, while it does not improve our 'bad' matchups. Considering how broken many of the new marine suppplements are i'm not really sure what i am hoping for with BA. I don't want to feel guilty playing them, but i also want to win some games, preferably games being decided in the last 2 turns, not the 2 first.

 

On a positive note:

Really looking forward trying lemartes and astrorath with the new litanies. The +2 to charge aura makes us much less of a one trick pony. Also the new primaris transport with 4++ looks like alot of fun to play although i prefer the aesthetics  of the classic rhino.

 

When I think back to the early 90s, the Rhino and the Land Raider are the two tanks that spring to mind. I don´t think I want to revisit the rhino-rush (know locally as taking the buss to the nearest close combat), but I would love some kind of options of a balanced approach where we can take both jumpers and mech.

 

Regarding BAs super doctrine, I like that it kicks in during assault doctrine. That makes for less alpha-strikes and in my local meta we play with very heavy terrain and that makes all kinds of CC armies viable, so there will be CC from turn 2 -6 (we even fire lots of pistols when fighting heretics/xenos/daemons on objectives).

[Indefragable]

Since I’ve slept on these initial reveals, I have a thought: can any Mathhammer type crunch the #’s on how the following compare:

 

White Scars Intercessors: 2A base +1 Shock Assault + 1AP and +1D for Assault Doctrine

Blood Angels Intercessors: 2A base + 1 Shock Assault +1AP and +1A for Assault Doctrine

non-BA Veteran Intercessors: 3A base etc...
Death Company Intercessors  etc...

 

Looking to get some math on at what point extra attacks start getting close to doing the same damage as the WS ability. My thought is that more raw attacks could have more all around utility and at a certain quantity somewhat makeup for lacking a bit more punch while +1D is obviously better for multiwound models. 

[The Unseen]

At work so I can't do the math just yet, but gut estimation I'd say with 2 attacks, going to 3 attacks or 2d a hit are going to be only time theyre close.

After that, any more attacks is going to lose out to multi damage pretty hard where it matters.

So, our tacticals hit better, but after that white scars will do more vs anything except 1 wound targets.

[BluejayJunior]

 

 

The litanies look weird - when do they activate? When the model makes the attack or if it is around the model when the litany was inspiring, so at the start of the turn?

 

Otherwise, what my post was missing - yay, free stuff!

And this is GW, so we shouldn’t take this for granted. Only a small payment of 32,50€ will net you the rules the other factions get in their main army or through an FAQ.

 

Did the grav bomb get interesting for us at last?

Litanies activate at the Start of the Battle Round. So even if you're going second, you need to pop them at the top of each Battle Round. This is crucial because it means you need to have your Chaplain and preferred receiver(s) of buffs in position at the start of each Battle Round. Aka do not put Mr. Chappy in a Transport to start the game or Deep Strike, etc.... since they have to be on the board in order to activate it. Hence why it's particularly wonky for us to combo with Descent of Angels and such.

 

I have used a Dark Apostle in my Iron Warriors list a bunch so I have firsthand experience in the pros/cons of the mechanic.

 

For us as BA, it's going to be tricky since T1 we could make the greatest benefit of the +1 To Hit shooting one, but then we want to be jumping up the board to set up the +2 to charges for our Assault units. I think this is where Astorath may start to see the table more if he inherently can chant 2x Litanies instead of just 1.

That was my thinking, and what makes the whole mechanic a bit...bad. It no longer applies in the phase the buff is used, but only if the unit is next to the Chaplain when the litany is chanted. Maybe more fluffy, but sounds like a pain in the rear armour and will lead to chaplains not really being at the front lines, but lots of UWoFiring of units that have received said buff.

 

I’m also very interested in point costs changes for SG and some of our core units from CA19, and how those will play out. SG could need a little help in points I’d say.

 

That's not quite right. The Chaplain starts the litany after the start of the battle round. At that point, you are either choosing a specific unit to be affected or it becomes an aura affecting everyone within 6" like any other aura. So for the +2 charge litany, it affects units within 6" of the chaplain during the charge phase, not units that were within 6" at the start of the turn. 

[Hintzy]

 

 

 

 

The litanies look weird - when do they activate? When the model makes the attack or if it is around the model when the litany was inspiring, so at the start of the turn?

 

Otherwise, what my post was missing - yay, free stuff!

And this is GW, so we shouldn’t take this for granted. Only a small payment of 32,50€ will net you the rules the other factions get in their main army or through an FAQ.

 

Did the grav bomb get interesting for us at last?

Litanies activate at the Start of the Battle Round. So even if you're going second, you need to pop them at the top of each Battle Round. This is crucial because it means you need to have your Chaplain and preferred receiver(s) of buffs in position at the start of each Battle Round. Aka do not put Mr. Chappy in a Transport to start the game or Deep Strike, etc.... since they have to be on the board in order to activate it. Hence why it's particularly wonky for us to combo with Descent of Angels and such.

 

I have used a Dark Apostle in my Iron Warriors list a bunch so I have firsthand experience in the pros/cons of the mechanic.

 

For us as BA, it's going to be tricky since T1 we could make the greatest benefit of the +1 To Hit shooting one, but then we want to be jumping up the board to set up the +2 to charges for our Assault units. I think this is where Astorath may start to see the table more if he inherently can chant 2x Litanies instead of just 1.

That was my thinking, and what makes the whole mechanic a bit...bad. It no longer applies in the phase the buff is used, but only if the unit is next to the Chaplain when the litany is chanted. Maybe more fluffy, but sounds like a pain in the rear armour and will lead to chaplains not really being at the front lines, but lots of UWoFiring of units that have received said buff.

 

I’m also very interested in point costs changes for SG and some of our core units from CA19, and how those will play out. SG could need a little help in points I’d say.

That's not quite right. The Chaplain starts the litany after the start of the battle round. At that point, you are either choosing a specific unit to be affected or it becomes an aura affecting everyone within 6" like any other aura. So for the +2 charge litany, it affects units within 6" of the chaplain during the charge phase, not units that were within 6" at the start of the turn.

You beat me to the point, but here's the text (from battlescribe) to reinforce it.

 

"If this litany is inspiring, add 2 to charge rolls made for friendly <CHAPTER> units whilst they are within 6" of this model. In addition, when a friendly <CHAPTER> unit makes a pile-in or consolidate move within 6" of this model, models in that unit can move up to an additional 3". This is not cumulative with any other ability that adds to a unit’s charge roll or increases the distance it can pile in or consolidate."

[Captain_Krash]

Does any of the affect oldmarines? I mean christ...VV with duel chain swords...um Oldmarine DC with duel chainswords....

 

Krash

[SnorriSnorrison]

 

 

 

The litanies look weird - when do they activate? When the model makes the attack or if it is around the model when the litany was inspiring, so at the start of the turn?

Otherwise, what my post was missing - yay, free stuff!

And this is GW, so we shouldn’t take this for granted. Only a small payment of 32,50€ will net you the rules the other factions get in their main army or through an FAQ.

Did the grav bomb get interesting for us at last?

 

Litanies activate at the Start of the Battle Round. So even if you're going second, you need to pop them at the top of each Battle Round. This is crucial because it means you need to have your Chaplain and preferred receiver(s) of buffs in position at the start of each Battle Round. Aka do not put Mr. Chappy in a Transport to start the game or Deep Strike, etc.... since they have to be on the board in order to activate it. Hence why it's particularly wonky for us to combo with Descent of Angels and such.

I have used a Dark Apostle in my Iron Warriors list a bunch so I have firsthand experience in the pros/cons of the mechanic.

For us as BA, it's going to be tricky since T1 we could make the greatest benefit of the +1 To Hit shooting one, but then we want to be jumping up the board to set up the +2 to charges for our Assault units. I think this is where Astorath may start to see the table more if he inherently can chant 2x Litanies instead of just 1.

That was my thinking, and what makes the whole mechanic a bit...bad. It no longer applies in the phase the buff is used, but only if the unit is next to the Chaplain when the litany is chanted. Maybe more fluffy, but sounds like a pain in the rear armour and will lead to chaplains not really being at the front lines, but lots of UWoFiring of units that have received said buff.

I’m also very interested in point costs changes for SG and some of our core units from CA19, and how those will play out. SG could need a little help in points I’d say.

That's not quite right. The Chaplain starts the litany after the start of the battle round. At that point, you are either choosing a specific unit to be affected or it becomes an aura affecting everyone within 6" like any other aura. So for the +2 charge litany, it affects units within 6" of the chaplain during the charge phase, not units that were within 6" at the start of the turn.

That sounds a lot better actually, and would mean that only the Chaplain would have to start the round on the board, correct? The other units could be in deep orbit and come down for some deepstrike shenanigans.

Ok, ok. Gonna check them litanies a bit more closely, especially for Lemartes and Astorath. A tandem of those would be a huge buff platform to DC, VanVets and other assault units. Thanks for the feedback!

[Neuralshock]

Since I’ve slept on these initial reveals, I have a thought: can any Mathhammer type crunch the #’s on how the following compare:

 

White Scars Intercessors: 2A base +1 Shock Assault + 1AP and +1D for Assault Doctrine

Blood Angels Intercessors: 2A base + 1 Shock Assault +1AP and +1A for Assault Doctrine

non-BA Veteran Intercessors: 3A base etc...

Death Company Intercessors  etc...

 

Looking to get some math on at what point extra attacks start getting close to doing the same damage as the WS ability. My thought is that more raw attacks could have more all around utility and at a certain quantity somewhat makeup for lacking a bit more punch while +1D is obviously better for multiwound models. 

I did the thing

 

here's WS, BA ints, DC ints vs Primaris equivalents all in assault doctrine with super docs

 

White scars

 

BA intercessors

 

DC intercessors

 

 

I think some take-aways from this first look is that surface level, all three kill about 2 primaris on the charge. However, both BA units are going to force more save rolls on average which is superior to the higher variability that a WS unit would bring imo. 

[appiah4]

Ok, as much as I liked the model and GW's initial reveal trailer with Heavy Metal music, the voice actor they are using for the Blood of Baal videos is incredibly cringe inducing..

 

Also, post #230 of this thread: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359365-new-mephistonpsychic-awakening-p3/page-10?do=findComment&comment=5421509

 

 

Here's my prediction for PA3: Primaris Death Company.

 

Called it.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

After time to digest.

 

For my old guard I'm excited my ASM only got better. If I could get some points decreases that would be a bonus.

 

Looking at it I think Bikes are still going to be a solid investment for me.

 

Depending on CA 3.0 point reductions for sanguinary guard they may be winners. Not really holding out too much hope on that though.

 

I think vanguard vets are going to be really strong for us. I may have to bump up to 10 of them from the MSU I have.

 

Silver lining and all that.

[Indefragable]

 

 

 

 

The litanies look weird - when do they activate? When the model makes the attack or if it is around the model when the litany was inspiring, so at the start of the turn?

Otherwise, what my post was missing - yay, free stuff!

And this is GW, so we shouldn’t take this for granted. Only a small payment of 32,50€ will net you the rules the other factions get in their main army or through an FAQ.

Did the grav bomb get interesting for us at last?

Litanies activate at the Start of the Battle Round. So even if you're going second, you need to pop them at the top of each Battle Round. This is crucial because it means you need to have your Chaplain and preferred receiver(s) of buffs in position at the start of each Battle Round. Aka do not put Mr. Chappy in a Transport to start the game or Deep Strike, etc.... since they have to be on the board in order to activate it. Hence why it's particularly wonky for us to combo with Descent of Angels and such.

I have used a Dark Apostle in my Iron Warriors list a bunch so I have firsthand experience in the pros/cons of the mechanic.

For us as BA, it's going to be tricky since T1 we could make the greatest benefit of the +1 To Hit shooting one, but then we want to be jumping up the board to set up the +2 to charges for our Assault units. I think this is where Astorath may start to see the table more if he inherently can chant 2x Litanies instead of just 1.

That was my thinking, and what makes the whole mechanic a bit...bad. It no longer applies in the phase the buff is used, but only if the unit is next to the Chaplain when the litany is chanted. Maybe more fluffy, but sounds like a pain in the rear armour and will lead to chaplains not really being at the front lines, but lots of UWoFiring of units that have received said buff.

I’m also very interested in point costs changes for SG and some of our core units from CA19, and how those will play out. SG could need a little help in points I’d say.

That's not quite right. The Chaplain starts the litany after the start of the battle round. At that point, you are either choosing a specific unit to be affected or it becomes an aura affecting everyone within 6" like any other aura. So for the +2 charge litany, it affects units within 6" of the chaplain during the charge phase, not units that were within 6" at the start of the turn.

That sounds a lot better actually, and would mean that only the Chaplain would have to start the round on the board, correct? The other units could be in deep orbit and come down for some deepstrike shenanigans.

Ok, ok. Gonna check them litanies a bit more closely, especially for Lemartes and Astorath. A tandem of those would be a huge buff platform to DC, VanVets and other assault units. Thanks for the feedback!

 

 

@SnorriSnorrison and @BluejayJunior:

 

Much more flexible if that's the case...made me realize I've really only ever used the +1 To Hit in shooting power from the Dark Apostle:

 

Warp-Sight Plea

Hidden Content

If this prayer is heard, pick on friendly <LEGION> unit within 6" of this priest. Add 1 to hit rolls for attacks made with range weapons by models in that unit.

 

...which is most similar to Recitation of Focus for C:SM:

Hidden Content

If this litany is inspiring, select one friendly <CHAPTER> unit within 6" of this model. When resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon by a model in that unit, add 1 to the hit roll.

 

I've always played it as having to immediately pick a unit after the power goes off since the "pick one friendly unit" is part of the same sentence of "If this power works..." which based on other rules would suggest it's an immediate action, kind of like Armorium Cherubs and such.

 

However, I do agree with what you are saying that when it comes time for things like Charge buffs, it only makes sense for the ability to work if the Chaplain is in range when it comes time for the friendly unit to charge.

 

 

Since I’ve slept on these initial reveals, I have a thought: can any Mathhammer type crunch the #’s on how the following compare:

 

White Scars Intercessors: 2A base +1 Shock Assault + 1AP and +1D for Assault Doctrine

Blood Angels Intercessors: 2A base + 1 Shock Assault +1AP and +1A for Assault Doctrine

non-BA Veteran Intercessors: 3A base etc...

Death Company Intercessors  etc...

 

Looking to get some math on at what point extra attacks start getting close to doing the same damage as the WS ability. My thought is that more raw attacks could have more all around utility and at a certain quantity somewhat makeup for lacking a bit more punch while +1D is obviously better for multiwound models. 

I did the thing

 

here's WS, BA ints, DC ints vs Primaris equivalents all in assault doctrine with super docs

 

 

White scars

 

 

BA intercessors

 

 

DC intercessors

 

 

@Neuralshock: well done (is that an app or website?)...just what I was thinking....there's potential that more raw attacks is more versatile against a variety of targets while +1D is better at multi-wound targets. I take it that was Intercessors fighting Intercessors in your calculations?

 

 

***********

 

On a different note, with his ability to now chant three Litanies per turn and chant Mass of Doom on top, I think Astorath gets "Most Improved" by PA3. That definitely gives a reason to bring him.

 

Between Astorath's know-three-chant-two and Lemartes' know-two-chant-three abilities, taking them seems ever more like a must. Lemartes gives the "free" re-roll to charges and To Hit for DC, but can chant a Litany on top of that. So getting MOAR chargez! with the +2 one could be an option (or overkill), or you could give either the exploding 6's or AP-4 on 6's ones. Astorath meanwhile can be more of the counter-assault and gunline buffer, tossing out +1 To Hit and/or +1 To Wound in shooting.  Mantra of Strength (+1A +1S +1D) would be interesting for either one, knocking each up to S7  D:D3+1 with a buttload of attacks each.

[Panzer]

I think BA are being shaped around that magical turn 3 charge and I quite like it.

 

Its really evocative of the red thirst with us going into battle all calm and collected, using shooting to weaken the foe but then the thirst kicks in and it's chainswording time.

 

Even basic tactical marines are going to be rocking 3A on the charge.

3A at AP-1 and +1 to wound even! :D 

[Shaezus]

This is all great news so far!

 

Now if I DS my 10 sanguard they'll be firing at AP2 if they arrive on turn 2, then even if half of them are killed the unit will be putting out as many attacks in turn 3 as the 'old' 10 man squad did in turn 1

 

I like it. It's made BA what they should be and we haven't seen all the new strats, relics and WTs yet

[Neuralshock]

@Neuralshock: well done (is that an app or website?)...just what I was thinking....there's potential that more raw attacks is more versatile against a variety of targets while +1D is better at multi-wound targets. I take it that was Intercessors fighting Intercessors in your calculations?

Yup! these were intercessor vs intercessors on the charge. Here's the link to the website too, https://www.mathhammer8thed.com let's you put in a bunch of modifiers too. There's also an app

[Charlo]

This is all great news so far!

 

Now if I DS my 10 sanguard they'll be firing at AP2 if they arrive on turn 2, then even if half of them are killed the unit will be putting out as many attacks in turn 3 as the 'old' 10 man squad did in turn 1

 

I like it. It's made BA what they should be and we haven't seen all the new strats, relics and WTs yet

The AP2 Angelus Bolters is a solid shout.

[Indefragable]

As Pistols, Angelus would AP-2 in Turn 3 (unless we get a similar Strategem that lets leap forward one doctrine).

[Dumah]

As Pistols, Angelus would AP-2 in Turn 3 (unless we get a similar Strategem that lets leap forward one doctrine).

 

Angelus Boltguns are assault, not pistol.

[Lynnean]

How good would it be if we can start in assault doctrine?

[RedemptionNL]

So, reading the article, they said something about a death company intercessor with a thunder hammer. We all know death company squads dont have sergeants. So, either intercessor death company have sergeants, which doesnt make much sense, or they will be able to equip melee weapons!

 

"Just imagine how much devastation a Death Company Intercessor with a thunder hammer is going to cause… Lots."

Actually, that might be the primary reason that the Death Company Intercessors might be a different data sheet: different wargear options and/or no sergeant.

 

Just look at the picture in the preview:

 

 

The one on the right has a chainsword - which is a sergeant-only upgrade for regular Intercessor squads - and there's no clear sergeant in the unit. Although I guess it could be the one on the left because he has a tilt shield. The grenade launcher is still an option at least, judging from the one in the back..