Siege of Terra - Saturnine by Dan Abnett

[Taliesin]

 

Wait what?

 

Could you elaborate these spoilers, Fire Golem?

 

I need a bit of background before judging them. If possible of course.

Now, a lot happens after that so details might not be exact. John Grammaticus goes to visit a Perpetual called Erda, he was supposed to meet Oll there. She tells him how the Perpetuals always saw themselves as the evolution of Humanity. The Emperor was already a warlord at this point, and she knew him as Neoth, although that was just one of many names he’s had and she doesn’t know if he even had a true name. The Emperor was more powerful than the others combined, and he was impatient with the rate of humanities evolution, and as the perpetuals began to stop helping him, he created artificial equivalents in the Primarchs. Erda’s genes were used with the Emperors, so she’s kind of their mother. She eventually turned from the accelerated evolution idea, scattered the Primarchs and fled. She states how she’s surprised he never came after her. 

 

Its 545 pages long, btw. Big ol book. 

 

 

Any great Sanguinius scenes? Abnett says in the interview he has a major role in this one.

[Guest Drekkan]

 

Finally, one writer has the balls to answer all important questions. That means a lot.

But was it needed though?

I don't have the book and I will read it after the series is finished Like I've mentioned already.

 

But my overall thought is just like the Ryan Reynolds "but why?" meme.

 

Do we really need an explanation about how the Primarchs came to be? Do we really need yet another perpetual revealing to be of such importance?

People went nuts because of the shoehorned Cawl and now we got a entirely new perpetual (something some still are struggling to accept) which

1) is the "mother" of the Primarchs

2) scattered them across the Galaxy

 

Wh-why?!?

It was a perfect yet only hinted explanation that the gods were responsible for scattering them. Heck, even Argel Tals vision (which could either be true or Not but in my headcanon, it is true) was a perfect way of delivering it.

It made sense that the pantheon wanted to sabotage their great enemies masterpiece.

 

This takes away of the great conflict behind the scenes. It downgrades chaos' capabilities.

And one could further say that the entire Warhammer 40k setting including HH and SoT is all her fault. A new perpetual. A female. Just like Eve. One person to blame for mankinds suffering.

Dude, seriously?

 

I'll read it. I'll enjoy most of it because it's Dan we're talking about. I wish I had just an thimble of his talent.

But this time, it really feels like he was allowed to do as he pleased which I can't believe as each book and concept was discussed in group sessions. So either I'm just missing something here or something happened in those sessions and I'm hoping for the former.

 

Keep in mind, this is entirely my humble opinion. Take it with a Thunderhawk full of salt. I don't need the SoT to be lexicanum articles turned novels, explaining everything I never asked for...

 

My hope is that I get the spoilers entirely wrong.

 

 

Because, now the setting has been shrinked to

mum and dad are divorcing in SPACE !!! Next season a christian argonaut is going to save the situation !!! Aphone sister is witnessing it all !!!

 

Holly molly, what a sick sad world..

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

Finally, one writer has the balls to answer all important questions. That means a lot.

But was it needed though?

I don't have the book and I will read it after the series is finished Like I've mentioned already.

 

But my overall thought is just like the Ryan Reynolds "but why?" meme.

 

Do we really need an explanation about how the Primarchs came to be? Do we really need yet another perpetual revealing to be of such importance?

People went nuts because of the shoehorned Cawl and now we got a entirely new perpetual (something some still are struggling to accept) which

1) is the "mother" of the Primarchs

2) scattered them across the Galaxy

 

Wh-why?!?

It was a perfect yet only hinted explanation that the gods were responsible for scattering them. Heck, even Argel Tals vision (which could either be true or Not but in my headcanon, it is true) was a perfect way of delivering it.

It made sense that the pantheon wanted to sabotage their great enemies masterpiece.

 

This takes away of the great conflict behind the scenes. It downgrades chaos' capabilities.

And one could further say that the entire Warhammer 40k setting including HH and SoT is all her fault. A new perpetual. A female. Just like Eve. One person to blame for mankinds suffering.

Dude, seriously?

 

I'll read it. I'll enjoy most of it because it's Dan we're talking about. I wish I had just an thimble of his talent.

But this time, it really feels like he was allowed to do as he pleased which I can't believe as each book and concept was discussed in group sessions. So either I'm just missing something here or something happened in those sessions and I'm hoping for the former.

 

Keep in mind, this is entirely my humble opinion. Take it with a Thunderhawk full of salt. I don't need the SoT to be lexicanum articles turned novels, explaining everything I never asked for...

 

My hope is that I get the spoilers entirely wrong.

Because, now the setting has been shrinked to

mum and dad are divorcing in SPACE !!! Next season a christian argonaut is going to save the situation !!! Aphone sister is witnessing it all !!!

 

Holly molly, what a sick sad world..

Did you read it?

[mc warhammer]

hmmmm, this tends to happen every time abnett releases a book

 

the online outrage, not the "retconning"

 

usually, the dust settles after and everyone is fine (unremembered being the exception)

[Marshal Rohr]

Yeah, I’m just not seeing how the Emperor bringing in another perpetual to create the Primarchs is 1- changing anything, we know he didn’t do it alone but with scientists, same as the legions and 2- in any way did this woman act as a mother to the Primarchs beyond donating genetic material, which is how babies are made. I know we are all nerds but I was hoping baby making wasn’t something the adults here are unfamiliar with




Edit: also none of this is relevant to the siege itself, it’s just spice

Edited March 22, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[mc warhammer]

Yeah, I’m just not seeing how the Emperor bringing in another perpetual to create the Primarchs is 1- changing anything, we know he didn’t do it alone but with scientists, same as the legions and 2- in any way did this woman act as a mother to the Primarchs beyond donating genetic material, which is how babies are made. I know we are all nerds but I was hoping baby making wasn’t something the adults here are unfamiliar with

yep,this is my stance as well until i read the thing.

 

1. the emperor had to have used other genetic contributions else the primarchs are simply clones

2. "mother of primarchs" is a hyperbolic and probably self appointed title

3. there's probably a dead wolf that contributed canine DNA to leman's mix, claiming to be "nonna of the russ"

4. just because she had a hand in scattering the primarchs DOESNT mean it wasn't influenced by chaos

5. the perpetuals now seem to have a narrative throughline instead of being random players in the story

 

 

6.4chan is a cesspool

Edited March 22, 2020 by mc warhammer

[Marshal Rohr]

It’s also never been written in stone Chaos scattered the Primarchs. That’s always been a single explanation. Why would chaos scatter the Primarchs but not the hundreds of thousands of space marines the emperor was working on? Or the custodes. Why wouldn’t they just go around tossing important people through the warp any time the opportunity presents itself?

[mc warhammer]

agreed. i wonder what the mechanics of it are?

did she have a baby slinging catapult?

[Marshal Rohr]

agreed. i wonder what the mechanics of it are?

 

did she have a baby slinging catapult?

 

And the boys go play outside

[Scribe]

The fact it's a thread at all, is the part that is proof of what I'm saying. It adds nothing, its Abnett-Verse cranked to 11. We already knew the story of how the primarch's got scattered, or enough of it. I dont need one of Dan's Perpetuals to do it. It was 'the Enemy' has always been.

 

There is zero positive, in any of the perpetual arc, its literally one man's ego run wild.

 

The fact you could literally cut them all out, and lose absolutely nothing of value to date, just proves my point.

[mc warhammer]

The fact it's a thread at all, is the part that is proof of what I'm saying. It adds nothing, its Abnett-Verse cranked to 11. We already knew the story of how the primarch's got scattered, or enough of it. I dont need one of Dan's Perpetuals to do it. It was 'the Enemy' has always been.

 

There is zero positive, in any of the perpetual arc, its literally one man's ego run wild.

 

The fact you could literally cut them all out, and lose absolutely nothing of value to date, just proves my point.

has it always been the enemy? that's just always been the king theory

[Scribe]

Yes, it has always been. As recently as Valdor.

[mc warhammer]

interesting. for some reason, i've always thought there was a big question mark floating over that

 

in any case

 

  there may be room for erda to have been manipulated by chaos. 

 

and the perpetuals seem to be a modernisation of the shamans, which is also a big part of the lore

 

personally, i'm more curious about why she's named for an earth goddess

 

still waiting till i read it, like a madman

[Marshal Rohr]

or this lady is a chaos plant or avatar or the devil the emperor made his deal with

[StrangerOrders]

interesting. for some reason, i've always thought there was a big question mark floating over that

 

in any case

 

  there may be room for erda to have been manipulated by chaos. 

 

and the perpetuals seem to be a modernisation of the shamans, which is also a big part of the lore

 

personally, i'm more curious about why she's named for an earth goddess

 

still waiting till i read it, like a madman

I reccommend you do, its a great treat so far. I have been highly critical of the Siege so far and this book seems to be breaking my streak (well, sort of critical, I liked LatD a fair bit). 

 

 

 

agreed. i wonder what the mechanics of it are?

 

did she have a baby slinging catapult?

 

And the boys go play outside

 

Since you were asking for cool worldbuilding

The actual military units in the Siege (non-conscripts) have taken to referring to themselves by their full name and regiment. Always in conversation (they call them 'brackets') because uniforms have become impossible to distinguish in the grime and mud and blood. Its sort of become something like a madness mantra, they use them to remind themselves of who they are and to retain their individuality. A group runs into a Fist and insist on using it while fleeing from falling line despite the Fist calling it irrelevent. When he sees how much it means to them he merely shrugs and says 'I am Camba Diaz (Imperial Fists). Follow me.'

 

Its a pretty sweet moment after several pages of just seeing how brutal the slaughter of the retreating troops was. Seeing the World Eaters from their PoV was terrifying, moreso than hearing about how great and jumpy Khârn is. They are described more like horned monsters literally barreling through the crumbling lines than warriors.

 

Its quite spectacular.

[Marshal Rohr]

Hell yes

[mc warhammer]

Not exactly the case though, a good example of this was when Abnett wrote Legion. He discussed lots of ideas with Alan Merrett which were all approved, then Alan dropped the 'bombshell' that GW saw Alpharius as one of a twin. So unfortunately nothing in even the HH series is immune to any changes or additions.

 

i remember that bombshell being one that people thought "Ruined_FOREVER" at the time but is more or less accepted across the board now

Edited March 22, 2020 by mc warhammer

[b1soul]

Yeah...about Erda and her genetic contribution and hand in the primarch scattering.

Why is this setting-shattering?

Using another Perpetual's DNA in addition to his own...so what?

I presume Erda may have colluded and/or been used by Chaos? She didn't just snap her fingers and overpower the Emperor's defenses. Maybe the Emperor let her act up like how Valdor let Astartes act up? All quite vague and with potential to be further fleshed out later (or left mysterious)

People were crying about Wraight's Valor novel but after reading, admitted it's a great book actually in line with FW.

[StrangerOrders]

Yeah...about Erda and her genetic contribution and hand in the primarch scattering.

 

Why is this setting-shattering?

 

Using another Perpetual's DNA in addition to his own...so what?

 

I presume Erda may have colluded and/or been used by Chaos? She didn't just snap her fingers and overpower the Emperor's defenses. Maybe the Emperor let her act up like how Valdor let Astartes act up? All quite vague and with potential to be further fleshed out later (or left mysterious)

 

People were crying about Wraight's Valor novel but after reading, admitted it's a great book actually in line with FW.

Well, crying is the wrong word for it but i did apologize for the record

 

And that was mostly because the spoilers people posted were either wrong or lacked context, which on the bright side reminded me the age old lesson disregarding knowledge without context and to not trust people that likely speed-read through a sizable book or have not read other stuff. Case in point with Valdor actually, I am 90%+ sure that a shocking number of people havent touched the Black Books. 

 

A more recent example is with the Lion as some people were posting some spoilers that neglected a whole lot of context that I was glad to be properly equipped to fight them on that time.

 

My biggest take away is probably that BL's release schedule is dumb as heck. It gives people alot of time to develop misunderstandings or to spread misinformation. I dont understand it as there is no way in hell they wouldnt be able to move 2500 LEs either way and it allows for memes to actively turn people away from buying their stuff.

Edited March 22, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[Marshal Rohr]

I dont know how this can be any more clear.

 

1. Perpetuals did not exist.

2. Dan invented them.

3. A pillar of 40K, one of the most critical events of the setting, decades long established canon, is now being inexplicably bound to them.

 

Its not about setting shattering. It's about one man having seemingly no sense of restraint, and nobody saying no, when it comes to his own pet story threads, for an event which has had literally decades of reinforcing lore.

 

This should have been a slam dunk of a series, and its polluted with plot lines that are WHOLLY irrelevant to what it is actually about, and if they are MADE relevant, that is actually going to be even worse.

Still failing to see how their invention and inclusion matters at all. They’re made up characters for the narrative. No one needed Loken to exist and his plot arc to illustrate Isstvan III, but that wasn’t a problem. The Emperor was tied to an esoteric cabal of super humans in older lore, and here we see them incorporate an esoteric cabal of superhumans. This is less damaging to the setting than ‘the emperor didn’t actually care about the Primarchs and everyone hates the space marines holding the literal demons at bay’.

 

 

As for the BL release schedule, the Limited Editions guarantee they make money. The people who buy the books later don’t buy enough to be the target demographic. The rate these books are pirated means once the LE is sold out they stop worrying about it because they’ve made the money they needed to make.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[b1soul]

To me, the Shaman/prehistoric origins of the Emperor and the Perpetual angle seem compatible with each other. I find the Perpetuals to be an interesting concept with a lot of potential to be explored. Yeah, I get some people might not like it，but at the end of the day, it doesn't really affect the essence of the setting.

[Scribe]

 

I dont know how this can be any more clear.

 

1. Perpetuals did not exist.

2. Dan invented them.

3. A pillar of 40K, one of the most critical events of the setting, decades long established canon, is now being inexplicably bound to them.

 

Its not about setting shattering. It's about one man having seemingly no sense of restraint, and nobody saying no, when it comes to his own pet story threads, for an event which has had literally decades of reinforcing lore.

 

This should have been a slam dunk of a series, and its polluted with plot lines that are WHOLLY irrelevant to what it is actually about, and if they are MADE relevant, that is actually going to be even worse.

Still failing to see how their invention and inclusion matters at all. They’re made up characters for the narrative. No one needed Loken to exist and his plot arc to illustrate Isstvan III, but that wasn’t a problem. The Emperor was tied to an esoteric cabal of super humans in older lore, and here we see them incorporate an esoteric cabal of superhumans. This is less damaging to the setting than ‘the emperor didn’t actually care about the Primarchs and everyone hates the space marines holding the literal demons at bay’.

 

 

As for the BL release schedule, the Limited Editions guarantee they make money. The people who buy the books later don’t buy enough to be the target demographic. The rate these books are pirated means once the LE is sold out they stop worrying about it because they’ve made the money they needed to make.

 

 

The inclusion of a marine which is in the pivotal legion and the story of his betrayal? Seems pretty legit. Then he was reborn/didnt die for some stupid reason...

 

The invention of a sub-species, that had no basis, when other lore did exist and has already been referenced (Shaman) that is pushed by the same author after he invented it for...'reasons' when that sub plot did not need to exist...it's just hubris. Its arrogance. To then go so far....

 

 

as to say that not only did they assist in the creation of the Primarchs, but one is the 'mother' and that mother then went so far as to scatter them when it HAS been Chaos responsible for it for literal decades of ESTABLISHED CANON....is absolutely unreal.

 

Nobody else would be allowed to write it.

 

Edited March 22, 2020 by Scribe

[mc warhammer]

having been inside a few writer's rooms in my career; i can confirm that one writer offering up new elements and fleshing out a story is generally not seen as hubris or arrogance. they mostly call it "writing".

[Lucerne]

Whew, Abnett bashing now?

 

Figures.

[mc warhammer]

 

having been inside a few writer's rooms in my career; i can confirm that one writer offering up new elements and fleshing out a story is generally not seen as hubris or arrogance. they mostly call it "writing".

 

 

How many more examples even approach what he gets away with writing? Who else has had major additions or 'revelations' like this?

 

In contrast, how many authors take established plot points, and weave a story around them instead?

 

 

 

adb wanted to off lorgar during the siege. someone changed the dude who charges at horus on the vengeful spirit several times. *shrug*

 

any and all plot points were established at some point, by someone. you can happen to like some more than others, but no plot point is inherently humble or arrogant.

Edited March 22, 2020 by mc warhammer